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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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77 | 25.50% |
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160 | 52.98% |
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65 | 21.52% |
| Total: | 229 votes | ||
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:I'm fine with starting there, but I've heard and continue to hear people suggest that it's an end not a beginning and that makes me really question where their heads are at It's absolutely just a starting point. I would hope most Bernie supporters are smart enough to continue demanding things even after we get some basic concessions like $15/hr and single payer. I know I will be.
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Jul 24, 2017 15:57
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:The idea that universal healthcare solves the pocketbook issues facing Americans flies in the face of the evidence from etc. etc. Then maybe they should do something about those means of production.
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Jul 24, 2017 16:00
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Like I would look at something like affordable housing as a primary focus. You see people foregoing medical care to afford rent, not so much the other way around
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Jul 24, 2017 16:01
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Spuckuk posted:Then maybe they should do something about those means of production. Yes! The platform should be socialism, not welfare liberalism!
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Jul 24, 2017 16:02
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Main Paineframe posted:19.4 million people were under 50 percent of the poverty line in 2015. Not "under the poverty line", but under half the poverty line. Maybe fixing that would help people struggling with both medical bills and mortgage payments? Ah yeah, the old "You can only do one thing at a time" law, and the equally factual "people who want accessible healthcare are actually the ones pushing millions into poverry" theorem
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Jul 24, 2017 16:03
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Like I would look at something like affordable housing as a primary focus. You see people foregoing medical care to afford rent, not so much the other way around That's such a harder problem to tackle, though, with less obvious solutions. Rent control? Subsidized housing? Dredd-style MegaCities? Also considering a significant amount of Americans are landlords, it's not going to be a very popular thing, whereas single payer is hugely popular. It's about picking your battles. I agree that rent is a higher pain point for most people, but rent is also a much much stickier problem.
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Jul 24, 2017 16:04
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Single payer is 100% the perfect thing to be pushing right now. It's legit good policy that's insanely popular in addition to being a perfect litmus test to weed out people that should really just go be Republicans. Don't let anyone convince you otherwise.
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Jul 24, 2017 16:11
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Absolutely do single payer for the 25% of Americans who say they struggle with medical bills, but realize that you're not addressing what the other 75% say they're struggling with if we had uhc wages would go up because if you have an employer plan your boss pays you like 10k less than he should since it's considered part of your compensation.
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Jul 24, 2017 16:12
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WampaLord posted:Are you loving kidding me with this? Medical debt is a major reason for bankruptcy in America. Wait until Hillary makes it as hard to discharge as school debt. 
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Jul 24, 2017 16:37
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WampaLord posted:That's such a harder problem to tackle, though, with less obvious solutions. Rent control? Subsidized housing? Dredd-style MegaCities? Good point. That's a classic concern troll technique, isn't it? "Well, we have a big problem that we know how to solve, but there's an even BIGGER problem that we don't know how to solve, therefore do nothing"?
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Jul 24, 2017 16:53
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So is this thing out yet? Will they support legalizing it?
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Jul 24, 2017 16:55
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Groovelord Neato posted:if we had uhc wages would go up because if you have an employer plan your boss pays you like 10k less than he should since it's considered part of your compensation. 
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Jul 24, 2017 16:57
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Groovelord Neato posted:if we had uhc wages would go up because if you have an employer plan your boss pays you like 10k less than he should since it's considered part of your compensation. I only moved one zero, but it's still paraphrasing: “Senior management's job is to pay people,” he'd say. “If they gently caress a thousand guys out of ten grand each, that's ten million more for them." - Greg Lippman, 'The Big Short'
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Jul 24, 2017 17:05
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I'm 100% OK with Sergey Brin having the money he would have paid on behalf of his Googler's health insurance transformed into a golden yacht, as long as it means that health insurance folks and hospital conglomerates eat poo poo, tbqh
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Jul 24, 2017 17:12
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Yes! The platform should be socialism, not welfare liberalism! gently caress off with this bullshit. Nobody believes that you actually give a poo poo about socialism because you only ever bring it up to argue for why we shouldn't be doing something to help people.
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Jul 24, 2017 17:47
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Absolutely do single payer for the 25% of Americans who say they struggle with medical bills, but realize that you're not addressing what the other 75% say they're struggling with Ah the old "but will it solve..." defense. Well played. Maybe we should give it a better name like the "not a silver bullet" fallacy or something.
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Jul 24, 2017 17:56
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Jizz Festival posted:gently caress off with this bullshit. Nobody believes that you actually give a poo poo about socialism because you only ever bring it up to argue for why we shouldn't be doing something to help people. This but for paid family leave, maternity and childcare, Medicare buy in at 55 and a 12.50 minimum wage.
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Jul 24, 2017 17:57
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JeffersonClay posted:This but for paid family leave, maternity and childcare, Medicare buy in at 55 and a 12.50 minimum wage. sorry hillary forgot to campaign jefferson. maybe she fell asleep cause she's too old?
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Jul 24, 2017 18:04
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JeffersonClay posted:This but for paid family leave, maternity and childcare, Medicare buy in at 55 and a 12.50 minimum wage. Why $12.50? Is that extra $2.50 an hour going to kill the economy or are you just being anti leftist for anti leftism's sake?
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Jul 24, 2017 18:08
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Absolutely do single payer for the 25% of Americans who say they struggle with medical bills, but realize that you're not addressing what the other 75% say they're struggling with This is like saying that insurance is useless unless your house burns down. Single payer is universally popular and will help people immensely, as well as reduce waste spending. It will literally save lives. What concrete alternative proposition matches it in popularity and impact?
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Jul 24, 2017 18:13
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JeffersonClay posted:This but for paid family leave, maternity and childcare, Medicare buy in at 55 and a 12.50 minimum wage. WJ argues that we should forget doing UHC in favor of doing other stuff not at all related to health. Socialists, on the other hand, criticize Hillary's a medicare buy-in and a $12.50 min wage for not going far enough but would still support those things happening as an improvement, which is why most of us voted for Hillary.
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Jul 24, 2017 18:16
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I'm pretty sure WJ is suggesting single payer is good, but fails to address the most significant causes of poverty. He's making exactly the same argument about not going far enough. And the answers are, ironically, exactly the same. No, single payer and $15 minimum won't end poverty, but they're a step in the right direction and, more importantly, they're popular.
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Jul 24, 2017 18:24
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JeffersonClay posted:I'm pretty sure WJ is suggesting single payer is good, but fails to address the most significant causes of poverty. He's making exactly the same argument about not going far enough. And the answers are, ironically, exactly the same. No, single payer and $15 minimum won't end poverty, but they're a step in the right direction and, more importantly, they're popular. Holy poo poo guys, he finally loving gets it
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Jul 24, 2017 18:38
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White Rock posted:This is like saying that insurance is useless unless your house burns down. single payer is good and is absolutely a winning message against establishment democrats, who have no message I worry that if running against Republicans becomes "healthcare" vs. "jobs", jobs is gonna win. In which case the primary winning strategy boils down to being better on jobs than the Republicans, in which case single payer is cool and good but shouldn't be the focus. e: this is, if anything, a concern about tunnel vision
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Jul 24, 2017 18:48
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:single payer is good and is absolutely a winning message against establishment democrats, who have no message "I worry..." "this is, if anything, a concern..." You don't get to keep having concerns or worries about stuff when you've proven yourself to be so wrong about it. Bend the knee
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Jul 24, 2017 18:51
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Mister Facetious posted:I only moved one zero, but it's still paraphrasing: aight at least where i work i'd be 10k richer. JeffersonClay posted:This but for paid family leave, maternity and childcare, Medicare buy in at 55 and a 12.50 minimum wage. 15 is lowballing y'know.
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Jul 24, 2017 18:52
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WampaLord posted:Why $12.50? Is that extra $2.50 an hour going to kill the economy or are you just being anti leftist for anti leftism's sake? Why not 20?
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Jul 24, 2017 18:58
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Why not 50? No one here really has a clue what they are talking about when they throw out these numbers.
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Jul 24, 2017 18:59
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wrong.
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Jul 24, 2017 19:00
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TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:Why not 20? Actually, I'd be fine with that too- TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:Why not 50? Oh, I see. Kindly gently caress off with this slippery slope bullshit.  "What if we pay poor people too much money?" is not a reasonable fear to have in this country.
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Jul 24, 2017 19:00
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since wages should grow with productivity, the minimum wage should be somewhere around 18-22. so 15 is lowballing and it was dumb to lowball that.
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Jul 24, 2017 19:01
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So is wj now trying to pretend to be a left com?
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Jul 24, 2017 20:21
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Playstation 4 posted:Holy poo poo guys, he finally loving gets it Do you get that those arguments are equally valid against the criticisms of democratic policy levied in this thread?
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Jul 24, 2017 20:25
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TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:Why not 20? Well, why not?
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Jul 24, 2017 20:36
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So, been a bit since i checked in on this thread but are there any compelling arguments to vote dem yet other than they aren't republican?
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Jul 24, 2017 20:38
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peengers posted:So, been a bit since i checked in on this thread but are there any compelling arguments to vote dem yet other than they aren't republican?
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Jul 24, 2017 20:44
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peengers posted:So, been a bit since i checked in on this thread but are there any compelling arguments to vote dem yet other than they aren't republican? do you like tax cuts for businesses to stimulate job growth? then the dem party is for you!
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Jul 24, 2017 20:59
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Actually that's both parties. Do you love business but hate gay people? Vote Republican! Do you love business but not hate gay people (usually)? Vote Democrat!
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Jul 24, 2017 21:16
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peengers posted:So, been a bit since i checked in on this thread but are there any compelling arguments to vote dem yet other than they aren't republican? never have been never will
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Jul 24, 2017 21:19
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Crows Turn Off posted:Depends. Do you support any of the policies in their platform? have they ever passed any of the policies on their platform that aren't right-wing neoliberalism
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Jul 24, 2017 21:21
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