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Slugworth posted:I'd die doing what I love most.
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Aug 3, 2016 19:51
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:You can't keep your story straight at all. This corporate babble is basically meaningless, and just a way to avoid discussing the movies. yes, congratulations on sussing out that you and I want to talk about different things, and if you think those things are genuinely irrelevant you are free to stop talking about them however as the original post I was responding to was clearly interested in discussing things in those terms it remains a mystery why you felt the need to interject, and additionally why you think I am in any way obligated to move to discussing things purely from the standpoint of your personal taste simply because you wish to do so
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Aug 3, 2016 19:58
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Civil War is a Captain America movie that's not about America or being American. Civil War is about a professional disagreement between friends.
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Aug 3, 2016 20:04
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LGD posted:yes, congratulations on sussing out that you and I want to talk about different things, and if you think those things are genuinely irrelevant you are free to stop talking about them Because it's good to discuss comic book movies in the comic book movies thread. So what makes Marvel films good?
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Aug 3, 2016 20:08
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:You're deathly afraid of backing up these statements and discussing the movies and their quality, which is why you make appeals to popularity and conceal your points in marketeer babble. This is actually super unfair to marketeers. I work in brand strategy consulting, and the kind of analysis that LGD's putting out would get laughed out of any room. If you're taking this ultra-commercial view of these movies (which, that's fine, they are for sure corporate products intended to turn profits), the idea that this amorphous level of "quality" is a determinant of financial success is out of date by... I dunno, at least several decades, we've all moved on at this point to supplanting the models that supplanted that model To be more specific, any kind of "it sells more because more people like it" statement is absolutely useless in the context of marketing strategy, because in order for it to provide anything actionable to the business (which is the only way brand and marketing get the time of day in the first place, procurement loves cutting us out of budgets as soon as an excuse pops up), you have to go several levels deeper. What are the top category needs? What are the category strongholds and white spaces? Who owns those strongholds? What brand equities or market activations allow them to own those strongholds? And so on. These are like the most basic questions you can ask in a marketing capacity, but they're all glossed over again and again in favor of these goofy tautologies Like, that's the big plot twist behind my recent posts in this thread. I'm not asking for specifics about what makes the movies good because I wanna do some debate team By Your Own Logic poo poo and prove that your reasons for liking these movies are actually lies, I'm asking for specifics because I'm a brand strategy consultant and discussion of drivers of consumer choice is fascinating to me. Like, lazorexplosion shows up and suggests the movies work because they address the driver of clear characterization. Yes! Fantastic! That's exactly the poo poo I've been trying to poke LGD for
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Aug 3, 2016 20:11
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I know kids were just dying to see fancy dinner parties and closed room meetings between CEOs and senators. I think the most damning question anybody has asked about BvS is "Could you imagine a kid enjoying it?" The answer is a giant gently caress no, you don't even need to think about it. There are cool moments but they are spaced wayyyy too far apart. In between is a lot of adults talking and classical music playing. Like someone went down a list of "mature things adults do" and added that list to their movie so we would not accidentally mistake this for anything other than a mature adult super hero comic movie for grown ups. But that was also a list of "things that make a movie not fun" and it turns out adults want the fun part too. Am I wrong? Do any of you have kids that enjoyed the movie, and not just 10 or so minutes of it?
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Aug 3, 2016 20:25
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:So what makes Marvel films good? They're competently made action/adventure films with comedic elements, centered around likable characters that provide around two hours of fun? Some deviate from this formula a bit, others do not. Some of them have something to say (i.e. IM1, IM3, WS) even if its a bit garbled, others are just pure excapism. I discussed it on the previous page a bit, but the secret sauce is a studio support structure that has done a good job with things like casting charismatic actors for lead roles, choosing solid scripts, and picking directors who can do good work in conjunction with a more involved studio. This homogenizes things somewhat, but it also results in a consistently enjoyable product. Since all of these films are ultimately going to be commercial art by committee, this seems a much better approach than offering initial creative autonomy and then hacking everything apart and assembling it back together at the end if it doesn't look like it's going to be commercially viable. So basically: good project management.
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Aug 3, 2016 20:29
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I loved The Godfather as a kid, so I dunno about all that. Are you talking about ages 3-5 or how young?
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Aug 3, 2016 20:29
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LGD posted:They're competently made action/adventure films with comedic elements, centered around likable characters that provide around two hours of fun? None of this is particularly good. "Competence" is a very boring qualifier. Everything else boils down to "corporate structure" and "marketing". BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Aug 3, 2016 |
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Aug 3, 2016 20:30
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bring back old gbs posted:I know kids were just dying to see fancy dinner parties and closed room meetings between CEOs and senators. I think the most damning question anybody has asked about BvS is "Could you imagine a kid enjoying it?" The answer is a giant gently caress no, you don't even need to think about it. There are cool moments but they are spaced wayyyy too far apart. In between is a lot of adults talking and classical music playing. Like someone went down a list of "mature things adults do" and added that list to their movie so we would not accidentally mistake this for anything other than a mature adult super hero comic movie for grown ups.
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Aug 3, 2016 20:32
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bring back old gbs posted:I know kids were just dying to see fancy dinner parties and closed room meetings between CEOs and senators. I think the most damning question anybody has asked about BvS is "Could you imagine a kid enjoying it?" The answer is a giant gently caress no, you don't even need to think about it. There are cool moments but they are spaced wayyyy too far apart. In between is a lot of adults talking and classical music playing. Like someone went down a list of "mature things adults do" and added that list to their movie so we would not accidentally mistake this for anything other than a mature adult super hero comic movie for grown ups. But that was also a list of "things that make a movie not fun" and it turns out adults want the fun part too. My wife is a third grade teacher and the e:forgot it premiered over easter weekend and school was closed. MacheteZombie fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Aug 3, 2016 |
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Aug 3, 2016 20:32
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Halloween Jack posted:I feel like you could say this about Tim Burton's Batman as well, which I'm sure a lot of kids saw and enjoyed. Wasn't there an actual controversy over Batman Returns being too "mature" for kids?
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Aug 3, 2016 20:33
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bring back old gbs posted:I think the most damning question anybody has asked about BvS is "Could you imagine a kid enjoying it?" The answer is a giant gently caress no, you don't even need to think about it. Reminder that "edgy 13 year old boys", the group I've most often seen BvS accused of pandering to, are a type of kid
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Aug 3, 2016 20:35
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I loved the poo poo out of RoboCop as a kid. The first one. On VHS, not a TV edit. Great movie.
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Aug 3, 2016 20:35
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Equeen posted:Wasn't there an actual controversy over Batman Returns being too "mature" for kids? Too sexual, yeah.
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Aug 3, 2016 20:36
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Like, you'll notice that the frequent point is that "Suicide Squad is trying too hard to be an edgier version of Guardians of the Galaxy," but the basis of this criticism is literally that GotG exists at all, and implicit within it is actually a far more troubling premise where GotG is actually superior because it has no aspirations whatsoever. The film is praised highly for having a foul-mouthed alien raccoon character which it 'effortlessly' renders as indistinct and non-disturbing, for example. Like the editing, this quality is good because it doesn't arouse any particular feeling at all, but is rather reassuring about the consistency of the projected gaze with our own ideological comfort. You see the same thing with the commodity fetishism regarding Deadpool. "Look, two comic book movies about wisecracking mercenaries! Coincidence?!" Meanwhile, David Ayer is sitting somewhere wondering if anybody has actually watched his films, or considered that he doesn't think Marvel movies are good, while he types an obscurantist tweet about a Mexican revolutionary. This is this awkward guy's feeble attempt to tell the socially-mediated world that he doesn't share the oppositional cynicism of Deadpool or the candy-striped morality of GotG, but none of this matters because the point of these lazy criticisms and appraisals is never actually that people earnestly believe that Suicide Squad is more like those films than, say, Sabotage (another underrated action film compromised by studio meddling); it's that they want all movies to share in the inoffensive mediocrity of Deadpool and GotG because it makes their jobs easier. Of course, this premise that 'trying too hard is worse than not trying at all,' that the invisibility of the spectacle is preferable to testing the audience and risking their vitriolic rejection, forces a series of comorbid premises which adopt vague memes: Mediocrity is good, 87% of cape-man movies are "fresh" (conveniently benefiting whichever corporation just manufactures the most of them), the problem with the cinematic minority lies with the absence of "color" and trying too hard to be "edgy," etc. Meanwhile, virtually never in this discourse are particular scenes cited, shots juxtaposed, cuts analyzed, dialog deconstructed, criticism merely persists on the level of vague memetic subscription. It's almost like debating Ed Wood, "Filmmaking isn't about the little details, it's about the big picture!"
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Aug 3, 2016 20:38
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I remember when I was 5, I saw this weird, little comic book movie called "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles". It wasn't that big and I'm not sure many kids saw it. Anyway, it contained a scene of brutal violence that put one of the character into a coma for about 20 minutes of the film while his family broods and tries to cope with their loss and them failing their brother. It also contained a dude getting crushed to death by a trash compactor. Again, I don't think kids ever saw it. Was probably too boring and brutal for them to comprehend. It also had Sam Rockwell asking if you wanted regular or menthol cigarettes.
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Aug 3, 2016 20:40
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Because it's good to discuss comic book movies in the comic book movies thread. I am a funny, goofy, whacky, person, and I can't understand why movies can't just be like me and my friends? Like, why wouldn't the avengers make jokes with each other, just like REAL PEOPLE, if you ever spent a lot of time with the same group you'd know what it's like. You know, Marvel really keeps in touch with their fans, and they KNOW what their fans like, and really involve the fans in everything they create. They know the fans don't want to watch depressing movies where superman dies, or where the colour is so grey and boring, these are superHERO movies and they have to be exciting and have lot of action and snappy dialogue because that's what the fans like! I love the way that Marvel films involve the world, and really show the impact of superheroes on their surroundings. I feel so bad for the people of zekovia and Wakeria, Marvel really SHOWS us how people can suffer even though that superheroes just want to help. It really brought it home when the Wakerian man even allied with the Avengers after his people were hurt, and that we can all move on from tragedies. Edit: I love when my favourite superhero appears in the movie Slim Jim Pickens fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Aug 3, 2016 |
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Aug 3, 2016 20:40
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the scene where ant man becomes giant man is extremely enjoyable and the dialogue in that scene is funny.
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Aug 3, 2016 20:48
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Sorry wrong thread.
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Aug 3, 2016 20:48
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Halloween Jack posted:I feel like you could say this about Tim Burton's Batman as well, which I'm sure a lot of kids saw and enjoyed. Kids ignore boring talky parts, and when they get them on video they can fast forward, or I guess now they can just select scenes. I don't remember fast forwarding, but I remember there being parts of Jurassic Park that I just totally didn't remember from watching it as a kid because they were adults talking about scientific ethics and poo poo. Jenny Angel posted:Reminder that "edgy 13 year old boys", the group I've most often seen BvS accused of pandering to, are a type of kid Well, that's just wrong. BvS is for adult nerds who want their superhero movies to be serious and artsy (this is not a criticism of the movie).
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Aug 3, 2016 20:49
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Jenny Angel posted:This is actually super unfair to marketeers. I work in brand strategy consulting, and the kind of analysis that LGD's putting out would get laughed out of any room. If you're taking this ultra-commercial view of these movies (which, that's fine, they are for sure corporate products intended to turn profits), the idea that this amorphous level of "quality" is a determinant of financial success is out of date by... I dunno, at least several decades, we've all moved on at this point to supplanting the models that supplanted that model Yeah obsession with quality is an 80's-90's thing mostly. However this in the context of a post complaining about how Marvel had poisoned the market against other films by providing cinematic junk food that set expectations. The argument is grounded in generalities because its responding to another argument based in generalities. I was trying to demonstrate that even if you accept the notion that Marvel films are "low quality" all that does is suggest that its competitors are failing to even hit that level, which says more about them than it does about Marvel. We don't have a robust definition of "quality" or its determinants, but I don't think we need one here because the actual marketing component has been hugely successful all around by nearly any measure- lots of people go to see both Marvel and DC the films on opening day. They just don't evaluate the DC films as well compared to the competition, critical reviews are lower, and word of mouth seems poor. Knowing what drives audience enjoyment would be awesome (and I've been using "quality" as a proxy for whatever that is), but I don't have any information you don't- at best you're going to get an informal IDI about my personal preferences. Which, even if I am successful at channeling the feelings of the populace at large, may not actually correspond to my revealed preferences. I can definitely tell you what I enjoyed (or didn't) about a specific film, I'm just not sure that it has more value than any critical review selected at random. e: Like I'm pretty sure the reason studios do a lot of the testing that they do is precisely because these drivers are so loving hard to nail down on a film to film basis and most of the stuff out there is post-hoc rationalization. Using generic "quality" is hilariously nonspecific, but its also honest. LGD fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Aug 3, 2016 |
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Aug 3, 2016 20:50
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One of my department's professors has been teaching a class on superheroes this summer. They watched several films for the class. Her chief complaint is that it can be difficult to get students to think critically about the films at all, because one of the reasons they watch them is because they think the films require nothing from them as viewers.
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Aug 3, 2016 20:53
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i would like to see suicide squad because it looks like it'll be bad in a mockable way, whereas BvS was merely bad in a boring way.
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Aug 3, 2016 20:53
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:I am a funny, goofy, whacky, person, and I can't understand why movies can't just be like me and my friends? Like, why wouldn't the avengers make jokes with each other, just like REAL PEOPLE, if you ever spent a lot of time with the same group you'd know what it's like. I can't tell if this is a parody post or not. LGD posted:I was trying to demonstrate that even if you accept the notion that Marvel films are "low quality" all that does is suggest that its competitors are failing to even hit that level, which says more about them than it does about Marvel. This is just silly. People can love what's bad, and flock to things that are bad.
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Aug 3, 2016 20:55
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bring back old gbs posted:I know kids were just dying to see fancy dinner parties and closed room meetings between CEOs and senators. I think the most damning question anybody has asked about BvS is "Could you imagine a kid enjoying it?" The answer is a giant gently caress no, you don't even need to think about it. There are cool moments but they are spaced wayyyy too far apart. In between is a lot of adults talking and classical music playing. Like someone went down a list of "mature things adults do" and added that list to their movie so we would not accidentally mistake this for anything other than a mature adult super hero comic movie for grown ups. But that was also a list of "things that make a movie not fun" and it turns out adults want the fun part too. While I don't necessarily disagree with much of this (except I don't really consider the question "could you imagine a kid enjoying this?" damning) I know kids who get bored by Age of Ultron or Incredible Hulk too. But they're like six or seven. I know kids around 10-12 who were into those and Batman V Superman. It's hard to make a generalization about "kids" and what they enjoy. I also want to stress I don't just hang out with kids. I'm talking about nieces and nephews.
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Aug 3, 2016 20:55
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Halloween Jack posted:I feel like you could say this about Tim Burton's Batman as well, which I'm sure a lot of kids saw and enjoyed. I was all about Starship Troopers and Robocop, and Terminator 2, all the poo poo I was told not to watch because it was "scary" or whatever. I guess BvS could fit in there. LesterGroans posted:While I don't necessarily disagree with much of this (except I don't really consider the question "could you imagine a kid enjoying this?" damning) I know kids who get bored by Age of Ultron or Incredible Hulk too. But they're like six or seven. I know kids around 10-12 who were into those and Batman V Superman. It's hard to make a generalization about "kids" and what they enjoy. bring back old gbs fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Aug 3, 2016 |
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Aug 3, 2016 20:55
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someday i hope to be released from this comic book hellscape i've slaved my soul to, but i can't, because if i don't keep watching them, i'll never get to see NFL SuperPro lovingly brought to the big screen
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Aug 3, 2016 20:57
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:I can't tell if this is a parody post or not. That's what makes it good parody.
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Aug 3, 2016 21:00
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:I can't tell if this is a parody post or not. you can't be the sardonic, tells it like it is poster around here and also not recognize an extremely obvious parody, buddy. turn in your cined badge
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Aug 3, 2016 21:01
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dublish posted:That's what makes it good parody. You could frame it.
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Aug 3, 2016 21:02
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:This is just silly. Because, again, you are defining "bad" in reference to your personal opinions. People do not generally flock to entertainments that they believe are "bad" (as in things that they find unenjoyable). There are obviously all sorts of price constraints and social pressures at play, but a lot of people eat at McDonalds because they genuinely like it compared to the alternatives. People genuinely think the Bayformers movies are good. I disagree, but there are definitely positive qualities in both cases that drive real enjoyment.
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Aug 3, 2016 21:05
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Zelder posted:you can't be the sardonic, tells it like it is poster around here and also not recognize an extremely obvious parody, buddy. turn in your cined badge Just to clarify, I am my favourite superhero. I am funny but tormented like Ironman, a good upstanding guy like Captain America, uhhhhh I can be immature like scarletwitch, I am awkward like the vision, ummm I can like Captain America like the wing guy, I can like Iron Man like the other Iron man, I have family like Hawkeye, I can kick it with the boys like Black Widow, I am funny like Ant Man, I was a teenager once like Spider man, Bucky is cute, like me.
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Aug 3, 2016 21:08
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bring back old gbs posted:I wore out that section of my T2 VHS where Arnold rips off his arm skin in front of the Dyson family gently caress yeah.
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Aug 3, 2016 21:08
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LGD posted:People do not generally flock to entertainments that they believe are "bad" People generally don't believe that what they like is "bad".
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Aug 3, 2016 21:10
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K. Waste posted:Of course, this premise that 'trying too hard is worse than not trying at all,' that the invisibility of the spectacle is preferable to testing the audience and risking their vitriolic rejection, forces a series of comorbid premises which adopt vague memes: Mediocrity is good, 87% of cape-man movies are "fresh" (conveniently benefiting whichever corporation just manufactures the most of them), the problem with the cinematic minority lies with the absence of "color" and trying too hard to be "edgy," etc. Meanwhile, virtually never in this discourse are particular scenes cited, shots juxtaposed, cuts analyzed, dialog deconstructed, criticism merely persists on the level of vague memetic subscription. It's almost like debating Ed Wood, "Filmmaking isn't about the little details, it's about the big picture!" I always thought this was a problem on this forum even among posters who do try to analyze the movies. There isn't that much focus on the construction of the movies and most of the analysis I see focuses only on ideology based on a big picture assessment of the movie, or only a few smaller details. What I'm saying is we need to bring back Bad Avengers Shot of the Day and have more moviefights.
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Aug 3, 2016 21:11
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LGD posted:Because, again, you are defining "bad" in reference to your personal opinions. People do not generally flock to entertainments that they believe are "bad" (as in things that they find unenjoyable). There are obviously all sorts of price constraints and social pressures at play, but a lot of people eat at McDonalds because they genuinely like it compared to the alternatives. People genuinely think the Bayformers movies are good. I disagree, but there are definitely positive qualities in both cases that drive real enjoyment. *It's subjective*. King of pseudo-intellectual debate. Well buster, have you ever considered the fact that only the individual truly knows they exist??? Hah, these movies might not even be real, so there goes your argument. Don't quote me, just blame an old philosopher named Descartes.
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Aug 3, 2016 21:11
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ThePlague-Daemon posted:I always thought this was a problem on this forum even among posters who do try to analyze the movies. There isn't that much focus on the construction of the movies and most of the analysis I see focuses only on ideology based on a big picture assessment of the movie, or only a few smaller details. Moviefights and shots of the day are cool.
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Aug 3, 2016 21:12
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Burkion posted:I loved the poo poo out of RoboCop as a kid. The first one. Screw RoboCop, he's too edgy/grimdark/tryhard.
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Aug 3, 2016 21:13
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ThePlague-Daemon posted:
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Aug 3, 2016 21:13
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