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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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| B |
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77 | 25.50% |
| K |
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160 | 52.98% |
| M |
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65 | 21.52% |
| Total: | 229 votes | ||
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capitalism reform is a project doomed to failure, of course
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Jul 27, 2017 22:05
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:capitalism reform is a project doomed to failure, of course perhaps, but at that point it's literal revolution time, not vote for steve manchin time using electoral means to transition from capitalism to socialism is the ultimate reform of capitalism after all
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Jul 27, 2017 22:11
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I mean read this
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Jul 27, 2017 22:12
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why would i read that garbage?
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Jul 27, 2017 22:14
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:I mean read this quote:but I feel compelled to point out that in a basic sense, the terms of the debate are misunderstood. Often, this fight is labeled as a battle between liberals and socialists, and this is simply not the case. Instead, it is a fight between two competing visions of welfare state liberalism, with genuinely socialist ideas almost entirely unspoken in the debate. is this supposed to surprise me wj? yeah of course bernie's not actually socialist. that's what makes centrists like you complaining about berniebros wanting "full communism now!" is so loving ridiculous. we're pushing for something closer to FDR style new deal democrats, but to broke brained centrists that's basically stalin
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Jul 27, 2017 22:18
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Ze Pollack posted:as a side note before anybody rides to the defense of team chapo on this charge, please consider that their most recently released episode is the fourth episode of them playing a politics-themed call of cthulhu game. and it's funny as gently caress.
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Jul 27, 2017 22:21
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i mean i get deboer's worry that bernie embracing the socialist label drags the overton window to the right, but I see it differently. socialism was being lobbed at bernie since day one for poo poo like singlepayer and free college. he chose to embrace the word and not allow it to be used as a smear against him, and I feel that's weakened a ton of the stigma associated with socialism, opening up a path further left than we've been before. i do not think bernie would have done as well as he did if he said "no actually i'm just an FDR new deal democrat" every time someone called him socialist, and I do not think him embracing the term has weakened it or hurt it
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Jul 27, 2017 22:24
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Historical definitions =/= Modern/Casual definitions. News at 11.
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Jul 27, 2017 22:25
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the best part of bernie rehabilitating socialism in america is that for most americans, communism == socialism. by weakening the stigma against socialism, bernie also weakens the stigma against communism (and those who constantly call his good policies "full communism now!" suire are helping drive home the idea that communism is good)
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Jul 27, 2017 22:26
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Groovelord Neato posted:and it's funny as gently caress. These guys are gonna be the Lena Dunhams of Sanders 2020 aren't they?
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Jul 27, 2017 22:27
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n-no. they're funny.
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Jul 27, 2017 22:28
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yronic heroism posted:These guys are gonna be the Lena Dunhams of Sanders 2020 aren't they? not unless they get a really terrible and cringey rap video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H51HuNX41Fg
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Jul 27, 2017 22:29
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Groovelord Neato posted:and it's funny as gently caress. oh absolutely but the neckbeard charge cannot be defended against at this point on either physical or moral grounds
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Jul 27, 2017 22:29
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Girls is funny. The problem is people seem to think it's like meant to be Mad Men for millenials or something.
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Jul 27, 2017 22:30
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these guys that are funny and extremely well read are gonna be just like the unfunny tone deaf child of privilege.yronic heroism posted:Girls is funny. The problem is people seem to think it's like meant to be Mad Men for millenials or something. show lost me when allison williams hosed jorma from lonely island. that'd never happen irl.
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Jul 27, 2017 22:31
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So...what's this thread's thoughts on Bannon trying to push Trump into introducing a 44% tax bracket for anybody making over 5 million a year? (which, as far as I can figure from a google search, would be the top 1/10th of the 1%) I imagine that's also going to come with heavy tax cuts for everybody underneath that bracket, 20-25% corporate tax, a one time 10% repatriation tax and the repeal of the estate tax but will the current dems take the bait? Normally I'd say they'd be falling all over themselves to take that deal from a GOPe president but I don't think they'll do anything to help Trump (which Trump will use against them in 2018/2020  : "I wanted to raise taxes on the rich and they still wouldn't work with me. SAD!") https://theintercept.com/2017/07/26/steve-bannon-pushing-for-44-percent-marginal-tax-rate-on-the-very-rich/ _________ Or if that's too heavy of a subject, you can just laugh at Hillary some more. quote:“In the past, for reasons I try to explain, I’ve often felt I had to be careful in public, like I was up on a wire without a net,” Clinton writes in the introduction, according to publisher Simon & Schuster. “Now I’m letting my guard down.” https://apnews.com/2966d534b7034f64ab37dc9b81179040/Hillary-Clinton-calling-new-book- (do you think they'll be stupid enough to try to do some type of 'draft hillary' bullshit for 2020? it couldn't possibly work but it's another page she can rip out of the goldwater playbook)
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Jul 27, 2017 22:36
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yronic heroism posted:Girls is funny. The problem is people seem to think it's like meant to be Mad Men for millenials or something. i've never seen either i thought mad men was mad men for millenials tho
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Jul 27, 2017 22:36
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Condiv posted:why do you pretend to be a socialist and then pull dumb stuff like this? The first part of your question answers the second, I think
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Jul 27, 2017 22:38
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Lol yeah I'm sure Paul Ryan will get right on raising taxes on rich people.
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Jul 27, 2017 22:39
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Condiv posted:i mean i get deboer's worry that bernie embracing the socialist label drags the overton window to the right, but I see it differently. socialism was being lobbed at bernie since day one for poo poo like singlepayer and free college. he chose to embrace the word and not allow it to be used as a smear against him, and I feel that's weakened a ton of the stigma associated with socialism, opening up a path further left than we've been before. i do not think bernie would have done as well as he did if he said "no actually i'm just an FDR new deal democrat" every time someone called him socialist, and I do not think him embracing the term has weakened it or hurt it That was always my concern. I would have been a lot more comfortable with Bernie if his supporters had described him as the lesser of two evils during the primary; that some at least are saying "Bernie was always a compromise candidate" makes me more comfortable aligning with them. The Sanders chorus dragging Pelosi for her "we are capitalists" speech - especially given that its substance really wasn't that far from what Sanders campaigned on - didn't really endeared me much though. Again, I voted Hillary because I didn't see much daylight between the two vis-a-vis anticapitalism. Similarly to how the lack of daylight between Hillary and Trump's economics led white people to vote based on cultural signifiers, I voted - and explicitly said so - in solidarity with black voters who overwhelmingly chose Clinton during the primaries. Maybe Democrats should run to the left?
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Jul 27, 2017 22:39
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Again, I voted Hillary because I didn't see much daylight between the two vis-a-vis anticapitalism. lol
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Jul 27, 2017 22:41
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:That was always my concern. people drag pelosi for her "we are capitalists" poo poo cause it was her answer to "can we move left on economic issues?" she framed people left of the dem party line as anticapitalist, which is what you're complaining berniebros are doing with bernie! you always conveniently forget the dems were constantly trying to cast bernie as socialist cause they figured it'd sink him. him being dr.dictionary and saying "well actualyl socialism is....." every time someone called him one is a good way to lose, which kinda makes sense why you wanted him to do it then. cause then he could get tarred as a socialist and lose cause of it again, stop pretending to be socialist wj, you're not fooling anyone Condiv fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 22:44
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remember when hillary's people said it might be a bad idea to get paid insane money from banks to give speeches and she couldn't grasp why it was a bad idea.
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Jul 27, 2017 22:51
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yronic heroism posted:Lol yeah I'm sure Paul Ryan will get right on raising taxes on rich people. Did you miss the part where I said it's also likely that they'd lower the corporate tax from 35% to 20-25%, do a one time 10% repatriation tax on corporate cash stashed overseas and repeal the estate tax? Because raising the top 1/10th of 1% taxes less than 5% would be nothing compared to the gains they'd get out of it. (And it would be a killer blow against the Democrats in terms of messaging if they didn't go along with it. That's what worries me the most. It's easy for dummies to just go  he's raising taxes on rich folks without looking at the full picture.)
Call Me Charlie fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 22:52
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Are you afraid they'll vote for it or afraid they won't?
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Jul 27, 2017 23:01
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How you can see Hillary as anything but an opportunist is beyond me. She has a proven track record of selling out her gender and all minorities to scam the poor and take payments from the wealthy. The fact that she never took a progressive stance unless threatened is strong circumstantial evidence to support this
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Jul 27, 2017 23:06
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Condiv posted:people drag pelosi for her "we are capitalists" poo poo cause it was her answer to "can we move left on economic issues?" "we are capitalists, and we should reform the excesses of capitalism as robert reich suggested" was her answer and then you're going to tout the same loving thing and jesus loving christ it's like your problem with the democratic establishment is a loving tone argument as opposed to anything substantive
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Jul 27, 2017 23:09
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Condiv posted:people drag pelosi for her "we are capitalists" poo poo cause it was her answer to "can we move left on economic issues?" and jesus loving christ if the most popular "socialist" can't even say loving "democracy in the workplaces" we're all hosed anyway
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Jul 27, 2017 23:11
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democrats: demand full communism now, now
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Jul 27, 2017 23:21
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:"we are capitalists, and we should reform the excesses of capitalism as robert reich suggested" was her answer and then you're going to tout the same loving thing and jesus loving christ it's like your problem with the democratic establishment is a loving tone argument as opposed to anything substantive when? even in the expanded context videos of her "answer" she doesn't actually answer the kid and just explains the problems with capitalism as if we don't know that capitalism is ultrafucked right now also, btw, robert reich supports medicare for all, which pelosi doesn't. so no matter how much she sucks up to robert reich, her actions do not align with her words at all edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7eJ05G6gQQ&t=988s where in this video does she mention robert reich or his policies? WhiskeyJuvenile posted:and jesus loving christ if the most popular "socialist" can't even say loving "democracy in the workplaces" we're all hosed anyway you really don't get it at all do you? the most popular "socialist" rehabilitated the term, making us less hosed than we were when the term was dead Condiv fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 23:26
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yronic heroism posted:Are you afraid they'll vote for it or afraid they won't? I'm more afraid of the consequences of a no-win situation. If they go along with it, it's basically confirming the narrative Trump's trying to construct and will be championed as his main achievement heading into 2020. If they don't go along with it, it's basically an anchor around the neck of every Democrat in 2018 and 2020. You can try to explain why that's actually a bad deal but no amount of explanation will be able to beat the quick soundbyte of "I wanted to lower your taxes and raise mine* but they still wouldn't work with me." We're getting past the point about just worrying about 2020. We're quickly approaching the oblivion of Trump style Republicans successfully co-opting and subverting progressive messaging. That should worry everybody. Especially since the Democrats refuse to learn their lesson from 2016 and seem determined to continue down the New Democrats path of tax credits and other convoluted half-measures. (that's if it happens in the first place. maybe trump won't be able to twist arms on the benefits to the ryan/romney/mccain wing of his party) Call Me Charlie fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 23:26
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why does hillary clinton have so much goddamned trouble making logos or text layouts. how can every person around one person be so absolutely inept at a thing, so consistently. we're getting into Private Pyle territory. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgjaeHGi9IA
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Jul 27, 2017 23:30
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is it just the word russia for 300 pages?
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Jul 27, 2017 23:32
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Groovelord Neato posted:is it just the word russia for 300 pages? No, not entirely. She blames Comey and misogyny too.
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Jul 27, 2017 23:33
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Call Me Charlie posted:You can try to explain why that's actually a bad deal but no amount of explanation will be able to beat the quick soundbyte of "I wanted to lower your taxes and raise mine* but they still wouldn't work with me."
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Jul 27, 2017 23:34
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Willie Tomg posted:why does hillary clinton have so much goddamned trouble making logos or text layouts. how can every person around one person be so absolutely inept at a thing, so consistently. we're getting into Private Pyle territory. whiskey juvenile, socialist extraordinaire, could not tell the difference between abuela who is an idiot and takes no responsibility, and bernie who didn't spend every day after he lost the primary whining about everyone else on earth failing him. as far as a true socialist is concerned, these two politicians are carbon copies of each other
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Jul 27, 2017 23:34
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Condiv posted:when? even in the expanded context videos of her "answer" she doesn't actually answer the kid and just explains the problems with capitalism as if we don't know that capitalism is ultrafucked right now The thing about shareholder vs. stakeholder capitalism quote:you really don't get it at all do you? the most popular "socialist" rehabilitated the term, making us less hosed than we were when the term was dead sure
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Jul 27, 2017 23:35
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Willie Tomg posted:No, not entirely. She blames Comey and misogyny too. so it should be called "what happened"
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Jul 27, 2017 23:36
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Groovelord Neato posted:so it should be called "what happened?" ftfy
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Jul 27, 2017 23:37
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:The thing about shareholder vs. stakeholder capitalism that's not an answer. why do you not realize this? the kid asked what she was going to do and instead she says we're capitalist and lists some ways that's failed and then never says what's she's gonna actually do about it. sorry our socks weren't knocked off by nancy pelosi's explanation of stockholder vs shareholder capitalism, and her total silence on any plans to move us out of stockholder capitalism quote:sure i guess for a 6-figure making socialist, the definition of socialism remaining totally pure is much more important than it not being a slur.
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Jul 27, 2017 23:38
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