|
FeyerbrandX posted:Next NieR (2) game(s). Why sand? Is it because it's coarse, rough, irritating, and it gets everywhere?
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 03:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 03:04 |
|
|
Kavak posted:Why sand? Is it because it's coarse, rough, irritating, and it gets everywhere? Nah, you're thinking of President Trump.
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 03:18
|
|
|
Kavak posted:Why sand? Is it because it's coarse, rough, irritating, and it gets everywhere? Jackass has had to replace too many fuel filters over the years. She doesn't like the walk over to the forest village any more than 2B/9S/A2 all did. Also it's kind of a depressing scene now!
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 03:41
|
|
|
I'd like to note here that (according to Jackass) all of the machines personalities and humanlike quirks were due to a super advanced random number generator iterating over all of humanity's triumphs and failures and not some advanced sapience, so everything the machines do actually has no meaning.
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 04:04
|
|
|
I'd like to note here that the Red Girls (N2) are operating off of data left behind by the Gesalt project, and they have Nier's voice. So we can thus guess that, despite him being erased from history, he left an imprint in the project data. A record of his sheer will, which formed himself around them Thus, the N2 are Nier automata.
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 04:12
|
|
|
darkcaedus posted:I'd like to note here that (according to Jackass) all of the machines personalities and humanlike quirks were due to a super advanced random number generator iterating over all of humanity's triumphs and failures and not some advanced sapience, so everything the machines do actually has no meaning. It's called a Monte Carlo simulation
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 04:15
|
|
|
Ratoslov posted:Thus, the N2 are Nier automata. drat, we all just got  'd hard. Are their female voices Yonah's?
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 04:17
|
|
|
Ratoslov posted:I'd like to note here that the Red Girls (N2) are operating off of data left behind by the Gesalt project, and they have Nier's voice. So we can thus guess that, despite him being erased from history, he left an imprint in the project data. A record of his sheer will, which formed himself around them This is true. Also, they're probably based on Shadowlord Nier, who didn't get deleted. And this is just a bit of my own interpretation, but I always assumed that Replicant Nier was only erased from the memories of other Replicants, since his death didn't cause any weird causality paradoxes, and Emil seems to remember him well enough after he crashes in the desert. My thought is that, since Replicants have artificially implanted memories via the big ol' tree, Nier, as the Replicant of the Original Gestalt, had some ambient influence on the data of the other Replicants (just like Gestalt Nier had an ambient influence that kept Shade's from relapsing, corrupting, and going nutso). Kaine and Yonah would forget because they're both Replicants. Emil was born human.
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 04:22
|
|
|
exploded mummy posted:It's called a Monte Carlo simulation
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 04:23
|
|
|
Ratoslov posted:I'd like to note here that the Red Girls (N2) are operating off of data left behind by the Gesalt project, and they have Nier's voice. So we can thus guess that, despite him being erased from history, he left an imprint in the project data. A record of his sheer will, which formed himself around them In what way do they have Nier's voice? I just looked up the actors and that's not true at all.
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 04:38
|
|
|
Oh hey, achievements that can be bought in-game with in-game currency. That's wonderful! I have so many games in my list in which I won't ever get half of the achievements because I don't play multiplayer, and they're just sitting there, watching... accusing... judging... forever...
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 05:09
|
|
|
I would classify myself as one of those Serious Business guys that dislikes the idea of just buying trophies, even ones that are more of a pain in the rear end than any quest has a right to be. You either earn that poo poo legitimately or you go without. That's why they're called trophies and achievements. And yes, there are games that I don't think I'll ever platinum because of one or two trophies, like FF9 (gently caress jump-roping), FFX-2 (gently caress Gunner's Gauntlet) or Kingdom Hearts 1.5 (gently caress every single gummi ship level 3 mission!), and I still wouldn't just up and buy those trophies. But that's just me. If other people really want to make their e-penis bigger and harder but just don't have the time or patience to manage it the intended way, then by all means hop on that poo poo. To each their own.
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 08:49
|
|
|
Bufuman posted:I would classify myself as one of those Serious Business guys that dislikes the idea of just buying trophies, even ones that are more of a pain in the rear end than any quest has a right to be. You either earn that poo poo legitimately or you go without. That's why they're called trophies and achievements. And yes, there are games that I don't think I'll ever platinum because of one or two trophies, like FF9 (gently caress jump-roping), FFX-2 (gently caress Gunner's Gauntlet) or Kingdom Hearts 1.5 (gently caress every single gummi ship level 3 mission!), and I still wouldn't just up and buy those trophies. This is why buyable achievements are the best feature in Nier: Automata.
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 08:57
|
|
|
EclecticTastes posted:This is why buyable achievements are the best feature in Nier: Automata. Nier Automata insists that achievements only have value to the extent you, personally, give those experiences value. And then it goes and forces the issue. Smart game.
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 09:16
|
|
|
Dabir posted:In what way do they have Nier's voice? I just looked up the actors and that's not true at all. The Red Girls don't sound like Bro!Nier in the japanese version so I don't think that's actually the case. Unless the JPN N:A got retconned to being Dad!Nier, which is entirely possible, but it's def. not actually the same voice actors for either side of the pond. Now, if Yoko Taro hid that information in a collectible item in a cell phone game or a "Did you know" snippet in a Nier Automata candy bar wrapper, that would absolutely be the most possible thingBufuman posted:I would classify myself as one of those Serious Business guys that dislikes the idea of just buying trophies, even ones that are more of a pain in the rear end than any quest has a right to be. You either earn that poo poo legitimately or you go without. That's why they're called trophies and achievements. And yes, there are games that I don't think I'll ever platinum because of one or two trophies, like FF9 (gently caress jump-roping), FFX-2 (gently caress Gunner's Gauntlet) or Kingdom Hearts 1.5 (gently caress every single gummi ship level 3 mission!), and I still wouldn't just up and buy those trophies. nice meltdown
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 11:32
|
|
|
Ratoslov posted:I'd like to note here that the Red Girls (N2) are operating off of data left behind by the Gesalt project, and they have Nier's voice. So we can thus guess that, despite him being erased from history, he left an imprint in the project data. A record of his sheer will, which formed himself around them The machine network also plays a similar role to the Shadowlord's function as well, what with being responsible for keeping all of the machines under a "sane" direction. Without the network's influence, the machines go crazy, though they're not quite as hostile as relapsed Shades. Actually, the whole final encounter plays out sort of like the final battle against the Shadowlord, what with a revenge-obsessed boy and a coarse woman fighting side-by-side against the Shadowlord/N2, and then being set up to fight against each other as the true final battle immediately afterwards.
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 11:59
|
|
|
I'm a bit confused here, someone please help me out: Did the machine network/N2 create the androids? Or did they create YoRHa? If so, then how are they connected to the original versions of Devola and Popola, who predate the machine network by several thousand years?
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 12:23
|
|
|
Ryas posted:The machine network also plays a similar role to the Shadowlord's function as well, what with being responsible for keeping all of the machines under a "sane" direction. Without the network's influence, the machines go crazy, though they're not quite as hostile as relapsed Shades. Rather, machines out of the network gain free will. But it’s an apt comparison since Shadowlord’s collapsing mental state accelerated relapses while Adam’s grief created the mindless cannibal machines MachuPikacchu posted:I'm a bit confused here, someone please help me out: No. There’s a whole society of androids off-screen calling the shots. YoRHa is a military body, someone else is actually managing things
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 12:23
|
|
|
And hopefully that someone is getting Jackass's bombs up his or hers arse in the future.
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 12:44
|
|
|
Nina posted:No. There’s a whole society of androids off-screen calling the shots. YoRHa is a military body, someone else is actually managing things Uh, actually, I don't think they are. The Dark Id posted:- At this point, machine lifeforms This actually kind of answers an outstanding question, about YoRHa being backdoored and hosed up effectively on-command. Even if the "android higher command" had this whole plot to get rid of yorha all along, the timing of it seemed...very convenient. While an answer could be that they just opened the backdoor and the machine network took immediate advantage of it, if the entire point of the whole human-on-the-moon thing was "keep android morale high" in the first place, yorha getting hosed at the point where it did would have the opposite effect. However, yorha seemed like it was on the cusp of winning the machine war outright, which the machine network couldn't allow, so... It makes a hell of a lot more sense if you consider that much like there's no actual council of humanity, there's also no "higher" android command either. It was the machine network pretty much the whole time. They wanted an enemy in play for their own evolution but effectively "won" the war years ago, so the machine network itself was the one that came up with the idea of YoRHa and faking humanity on the moon so that they'd have their war-playmates to continue sparring with. In essence, the machines have been playing Civilization, hit the win condition and kept saying "Wait...just...one more...turn..." for the last 10,000 years.
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 12:52
|
|
|
If machines run the show it undermines the entire narrative because there explicitly are things the machines don't know about.
Nina fucked around with this message at 13:15 on Dec 26, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 13:11
|
|
|
Nina posted:There's still someone who wants that precious combat data and pushes the button to roll in the next generation of android combat forces. There's someone who makes the call to jam machine cores into the new batch to be "ethical". Granted, this is all wild speculation about who or what is above yorha's commander, since we haven't seen anyone yet, but Nina posted:If machines run the show it undermines the entire narrative because there explicitly are things the machines don't know about. I honestly can't think of anything off the top of my head that the machine network didn't know about. I mean, the red girls were showing up fairly early on in route B, iirc, and if you take that as "at the very least a point where they were jacked into the open backdoor"... And I mean the entire narrative literally starts out with "we've been at war for thousands of years, I wonder if we'll ever get a chance to kill the fucker who set all this up" and then you find out the machines have at the very least intentionally hamstrung themselves in an attempt to make the war last longer
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 13:22
|
|
|
A machine network that knows most of the details and still willingly chooses to play along in a two-sided wargame to sustain its own crutch justification for existing is infinitely more appealing to me than weird troll machine network that pretends to be stupid to confuse our android grunts for no particular benefit to itself from a storytelling perspective. Especially because all the worldbuilding of the factions revolves around justifying your existence around predetermined parameters inserted into your mind by your creators and that's really interesting, easily the single most interesting aspect of the entire story of Nier Automata in my eyes. When you write an entity in your story to do something immensely elaborate and complex, that complexity itself drags down its believability. In this case that comes down to "why bother to reveal all these intricate details about the psyche of androids if they're just a dummy enemy and nothing about their condition relating to humanity is real." The network having created most androids alive now raises questions that undermine the suspension of disbelief you can feel about the story in a really extreme way. When you have to jump into maybes to justify an entity's actions you've already stumbled, especially since every character in the first Nier had entirely justifiable and believable motivations.
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 13:36
|
|
|
There is a higher-up level of androids calling the shots, and they created YoRHa. The machine network has nothing to do with androids. This has been pretty thoroughly explained. And you'd think that the Commander would know who her bosses are. As another Serious Business trophy hunter, I also don't like the ability to be able to just buy trophies. It makes trophy comparisons for this game pointless since anyone can just buy the plat. On the other hand, this is one of the easiest plats I've ever gotten so it's not like tons of people wouldn't be able to get it legitimately anyway. If buyable trophies becomes A Thing, though, I imagine Sony'll put their foot down and not allow developers to do it. They've got an interest in not letting the trophy system become completely worthless. ...! fucked around with this message at 13:41 on Dec 26, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 13:39
|
|
|
I'm honestly really surprised Sony let this game get away with letting the player just buy a Platinum for a modest in-game price.
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 13:50
|
|
|
I bought all the trophies, and then I got 100% anyway with the added ease of not having to care about trophies
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 13:52
|
|
|
Nina posted:A machine network that knows most of the details and still willingly chooses to play along in a two-sided wargame to sustain its own crutch justification for existing is infinitely more appealing to me than weird troll machine network that pretends to be stupid to confuse our android grunts for no particular benefit to itself from a storytelling perspective. The fact that the machine network is intentionally spinning off sections of itself that don't have all the backstory to effectively "see what they do" isn't really either playing along OR trolling androids, though. (Although I don't know what you would call literally anything involving 9S on route C except "the machines trolling", but that's neither here nor there). It's just a continual "I'm playing a game and I don't want it to end" kind of deal. Nina posted:When you write an entity in your story to do something immensely elaborate and complex, that complexity itself drags down its believability. In this case that comes down to "why bother to reveal all these intricate details about the psyche of androids if they're just a dummy enemy and nothing about their condition relating to humanity is real." The network having created most androids alive now raises questions that undermine the suspension of disbelief you can feel about the story in a really extreme way. When you have to jump into maybes to justify an entity's actions you've already stumbled, especially since every character in the first Nier had entirely justifiable and believable motivations. The androids themselves aren't "not real", but "the reason they exist at all" has been a continual cycle of "lol nope actually it's because" ever since Devola and Popola in the first Nier. Ultimately it comes down to a couple of questions: - If the backdoor in YoRHa was open before Eve died and possibly even earlier than that, why did the machine network choose to act when they did during route C and not before? - How did whatever androids in charge of YoRHa know that the machine network was going to do exactly what said androids wanted and clean up the entirety of YoRHa for them, removing absolutely all evidence in the process? Especially if at any given time there were likely to be a lot of random YoRHa androids running around on the surface fighting a war? Fun extra thought: In order for the "Council of Humanity" to still be broadcasting from the moon going forward, someone still has to be sending supplies up (even if it's just buckets of water), and the machine network is the only one that's got that capability now, either via the tower or via that one machine scientist's giant cannon. And the entire point of "getting rid of yorha" was that there would be no androids who'd ever know that there's no humans left on the moon, so...
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 13:59
|
|
|
Ursine Catastrophe posted:Fun extra thought: In order for the "Council of Humanity" to still be broadcasting from the moon going forward, someone still has to be sending supplies up (even if it's just buckets of water), and the machine network is the only one that's got that capability now, either via the tower or via that one machine scientist's giant cannon. And the entire point of "getting rid of yorha" was that there would be no androids who'd ever know that there's no humans left on the moon, so... We saw the Resistance launch supply rockets really early into the game though
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 14:07
|
|
|
Ursine Catastrophe posted:I honestly can't think of anything off the top of my head that the machine network didn't know about. I mean, the red girls were showing up fairly early on in route B, iirc, and if you take that as "at the very least a point where they were jacked into the open backdoor"... Ursine Catastrophe posted:- If the backdoor in YoRHa was open before Eve died and possibly even earlier than that, why did the machine network choose to act when they did during route C and not before? The thing you're missing is that YoRHa was hamstringing themselves too. The machines can't win because they've realized their programming will collapse if they do, but the androids can't win because that would mean admitting that they won for no reason, because the humanity they won FOR is long dead. The Machine-Android war is so awful and terrifying because it's a game where the only 'winning' move is to keep playing, forever. In the event that one side starts pulling ahead like they're going for the win, they then start pulling back while the other side starts pushing harder. Repeat forever. As for the backdoor, the document does explicitly say it was set to open once they were about to roll out the new android models, but that they expected (assumed, maybe, or hoped) the Bunker (and all its dangerous information) to just be instantly destroyed. I think you have a point with N2 on the Bunker, but that implies to me more that this is a recent change, perhaps even starting during the middle of route A/B (you only see the Red Girls starting around the Forest Kingdom iirc, and definitely don't see them on the Bunker until right at the end). It seems more likely to me that the backdoor opened around when the Become As Gods Cult was going down, so the machine network immediately noticed and started hijacking all their data, not intending to go much further, until Adam and Eve were both dead and the androids needed a solid kidney punch to keep them down and the war going.
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 14:49
|
|
|
Nina posted:We saw the Resistance launch supply rockets really early into the game though Yeah, I'm not at all getting where the Machines are the only ones capable of doing that. We see the Androids launching supplies to the Moon from a location we don't even get to go to using what appear to be conventional rockets. We also saw a great big fuckoff aircraft carrier that belonged to the Androids that was stopping by to resupply, so clearly they have assets outside of that teeny tiny camp in the corner of the world Nier 2 takes place in. EDIT: So, side thought about the intent of the Androids in keeping this war going. With the Replicants, the Androids observed them gaining their own sentience over the course of battling with Legion, causing them to defy the purpose they were created for as if by nature. Maybe the Androids are doing all this "combat data" bullshit to try and create an Android free from their own intended purpose of serving humanity by recreating the seemingly endless war that brought that change in the Replicants? i am tim! fucked around with this message at 15:13 on Dec 26, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 15:04
|
|
|
Augus posted:I'm honestly really surprised Sony let this game get away with letting the player just buy a Platinum for a modest in-game price. Probably someone higher-ups also loves Yoko Taro or Yosuke Saito or play the beta of this game. I'm starting to think Yoko Taro is quite blessed with lots of good friends...
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 16:08
|
|
|
Archus posted:Probably someone higher-ups also loves Yoko Taro or Yosuke Saito or play the beta of this game. I'm starting to think Yoko Taro is quite blessed with lots of good friends... Typically Japanese businesses only give the faintest hint of a gently caress about two things: money and seniority. This is usually not the best thing for us gamers, as it not only results in a lot of clever and unique games (and creators of games) getting shitcanned because they just didn't pull in enough money, but other developers getting handed A-list series just because they've been with the company for ages, then getting credit for sales that came from name-brand recognition alone even after they ran the series into the ground. It's amazing how beating on the dead horse that is Motomu Toriyama never seems to get old. Or irrelevant. Anyway Yoko Taro at least has the benefit of seniority, if not directly, but through his association with the current lead developer of Dragon Quest, which is basically a religion in Japan (that's barely hyperbole too, DQXI sold 2 million copies in the first two DAYS of release over there, they're crazy as hell for that poo poo), plus Automata at least put down some solid sales numbers, so for once Japan's bullshit is in our favor.
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 16:45
|
|
|
Yoko Taro also has the advantage of being a functional alcoholic in a society where pretty much all business relations are built by going out drinking.
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 18:42
|
|
|
I can easily imagine him successfully pitching the achievements shop to some exec when they're both shitfaced at a bar at 4am.
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 19:05
|
|
|
Ratoslov posted:I'd like to note here that the Red Girls (N2) are operating off of data left behind by the Gesalt project, and they have Nier's voice. So we can thus guess that, despite him being erased from history, he left an imprint in the project data. A record of his sheer will, which formed himself around them The Terminals are voiced by Darin DePaul (Ardyn from FFXV, Samuel Hayden from Doom), not Jamieson Price.
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 19:29
|
|
|
So I'm assuming the ending where the moose survive to become the new dominant race is the happy ending Yoko Taro was talking about.Mr. Flunchy posted:I can easily imagine him successfully pitching the achievements shop to some exec when they're both shitfaced at a bar at 4am. I get the feeling this is actually how he most of his games get funded. The next day his bosses are hung over and all "man that Yoko Taro he gets some crazy ideas when he's drunk" and then there's a growing horror as they realize not only did they impulsively greenlight it but Taro was sober the entire time.
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 19:33
|
|
|
Chokes McGee posted:Taro was sober the entire time. This is the least believable part of this theory.
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 19:35
|
|
|
Deep Dish Fuckfest posted:This is the least believable part of this theory. I think Taro is drinking even when he sleeps because it avoids any hangover, kind of like how Tidus in Final Fantasy 10 is too stupid to drown.
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 19:48
|
|
|
Ursine Catastrophe posted:- If the backdoor in YoRHa was open before Eve died and possibly even earlier than that, why did the machine network choose to act when they did during route C and not before? quote:- How did whatever androids in charge of YoRHa know that the machine network was going to do exactly what said androids wanted and clean up the entirety of YoRHa for them, removing absolutely all evidence in the process? Especially if at any given time there were likely to be a lot of random YoRHa androids running around on the surface fighting a war? quote:Fun extra thought: In order for the "Council of Humanity" to still be broadcasting from the moon going forward, someone still has to be sending supplies up (even if it's just buckets of water), and the machine network is the only one that's got that capability now, either via the tower or via that one machine scientist's giant cannon. And the entire point of "getting rid of yorha" was that there would be no androids who'd ever know that there's no humans left on the moon, so... Ryas fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Dec 26, 2017 |
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 19:59
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 03:04 |
|
|
So is there any connection between the Machine Lifeforms and the Watchers? We see hints of connections (Eve's tattoo, N2 in general), but Jackass's notes don't make any mention of any ties besides the stuff from Project Gestalt.
|
|
#
?
Dec 26, 2017 20:16
|
|
