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Lord_Magmar posted:The only thing there we haven't already seen is something we won't ever see because it's in the Chalice Dungeons. Everything else is information we could know at this point by talking more to Annalise/Alfred or looking at items associated to either of them. Actually I think that Cainhurst does play a very important role in the story. It's likely the place that laurence learned how to do blood ministration. The one of the Chalice Dungeons (forgot which) is littered with dead Cainhurst knights. The Knight statues before the throne room all have their right leg cut off; As if they had the Scourge. The vileblood register says it's been "kept throughot the ages". These guys have been digging around in chalice dungeons for far longer the Byrgenworth. Maria/the doll is really tall and pale, like she's something between a Phumerian and a human. The Cain fammily was probably founded by the last surving Phumerians who managed to keep some of their knowledge and legacy alive by interbreeding with humans. The Cainhurst Nobles had likely been using blood ministation and descreetly covering up it's negative effects for hundreds of years. When Laurence starts messing with the old blood and Wilhelm tells him stop, he decides to leave Byrgenworth and heads to the only place he can knows about where there are people who know anything about it: The great library in Cainhurst castle. Full of antient forbidden knowledge. Unsing that knowledge he starts the curch whose reationship with Cainhurst later goes sour and they send the exicutioners to deal with them. Cainhurst may also have been Yharnams original governing body. It's never mentioned who exactly was in charge of the city, but the church seems to be in every way that matters. Now that they've killed the nobility at least.
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Mar 5, 2016 14:37
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In regards to the spoiler thing I'm pretty sure Laurence straight up founded the Healing Church after leaving Byrgenwerth. Another scholar, possibly at the same time possibly just before or after, is the one who took the blood to Cainhurst. The Vilebloods and Church formed in tandem. Although I personally believe that Annalise is the traditional ruler of the lands around Cainhurst Castle. However that just provides even more reason for Laurence and his Church to massacre the nobles, after all they'd oppose his machinations for the city and thus having a reason to remove them that the Yharnamites agree with was really helpful. I think Maria and Annalise look like Pthumerians because they've got either the Blood of Queen Yharnam herself or one step removed from Queen Yharnam. As Annalise likely shared her "gift" with her direct relatives first. Importantly the last surviving Pthumerians never left the Dungeons, they're still in there ever expanding and ever-living in service of their last Queen. Who will likely rule forever as even killing her doesn't do much as her will remains and likely can create a new body under the right circumstances. Also there is another place those empty armours might come from, one of the common strong enemies are Pthumerian Knights who appear to be wearing that set. The biggest thing though is that the Vilebloods occur because a Scholar of Byrgenwerth took forbidden blood to Cainhurst Castle, before that they weren't anything inhuman, so Byrgenwerth is where everything begins.
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Mar 5, 2016 16:24
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I don't want to turn this page into a big mess of black bars so I'll try to keep my response short. -The Labarynth warriors are wearing rags over scale plates and chainmail. The dead full-plate armored knights in the labyrinth are wearing the same design as the portrait of a knight in Cainhurst. Those portraits also include a woman wearing the same uniform that the bell maidens have. In addition some of the decorations in the Castle also bear some similarities to stuff found in the labarynth. Maybe they just looted it all but they do seem to be intentionally trying to emulate the Phumerians. -By survivors I meant the ones who are still alive. The Phumerians in the dungeons seem to all be undead servants of varying levels of cognisance. -The suggestion that Lawrence was the one who went to Cainhurst and gave them forbidden blood comes from one of the portraits in the dining room. It's of an older gentelman wearing robes. He looks really out of place until you notice that he's wearing Amelia's amulet. It could be someone else who was in charge of the church between Lawrence and Amelia, but I think it makes sense that it could be a portrait of Lawrence. It's not like we ever see what he looked like. Lawrence being on good terms with Cainhurst at some point could also explain one way that Gherman may have initially met Maria. Though I did forget that the corruption rune says the first vileboods where made not that long ago. That doesn't nessiseraly follow that they weren't doing shady poo poo before that though. But hey, this is all open to interpretation. It's your story too. Pensive fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Mar 5, 2016 |
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Mar 5, 2016 17:23
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Got a screencap of that second picture you mention? Never noticed it. Sounds interesting.
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Mar 6, 2016 07:21
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 It's the one on the far right. It's not as clear of a match as I remember. If you're interested and have a few hours to spare a youtuber named 'Jerks Sans Frontieres' has a few videos where he just goes around staring at and talking about minor details in the world. He points out alot of stuff that I had never noticed before that makes the whole setting feel more coherant and was the first person I saw who gave that explanation for this portrait. Pensive fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Mar 6, 2016 |
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Mar 6, 2016 17:23
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Pensive posted:I don't want to turn this page into a big mess of black bars so I'll try to keep my response short. The guide, at least, suggests that successive generations of Pthumerians are born and live in the dungeons without ever seeing the sun. You have an entire twisted ecology there with a society feeding off the dead. The Chalice Dungeons would be genuinely nightmarish if they weren't so same-y.
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Mar 6, 2016 19:52
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The chalice dungeons are a great example of From Software game design. You get to shoot, parry, and slash everything you can shoot, parry, and slash in the main game, and the minute to minute gameplay is still fun. But because you don't have context for what you're doing, and because the level design is randomized, it's meaningless and boring.
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Mar 6, 2016 20:57
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Lord_Magmar posted:The thing is the Ritual only succeeds when you kill Rom. Willem might not even be telling you to kill Rom, he just points at her. He might be saying go speak to my pet Great One and realise that your hunt is a bad idea. Either that or Willem can't tell Rom to stop holding back the ritual but wants you to end the Hunt and so decides that killing Rom is better than leaving things as they are. Either way Rom isn't helping with any ritual as far as I can tell. How do you know killing Rom makes the Ritual succeed, rather than simply making it so you could see the Ritual's effects? It could be the Blood Moon is already there and you simply couldn't tell. It's not like there's a lack of precedent in the game for you not being able to see something at first (due to lack of Insight mostly). And of course everything you do end up being able to see is a bunch of crazy poo poo that most people would assume is a hallucination under normal circumstances. It's not a coincidence that you gain insight after touching the skulls of madmen and literally getting rained on by corrupted blood, I think.
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Mar 7, 2016 11:10
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Fair enough. However I'm pretty sure killing Rom was necessary, at least to reach the final goal of the Hunter. But yes Rom might just be hiding the ritual effects, however if it is it's hiding them from everyone including those performing the Ritual. So either way killing Rom allows the ritual to appear completed, regardless of it was already done so or not. Killing Rom lets Yharnam go to hell, but beyond that we cannot be certain what it was doing beyond what we're told. My main point there was that Willem and Rom aren't working with the Church, which is pretty true considering the fact that they're doing something to slow down or interrupt the Rituals. My guess is by blocking the connection between the Nightmare and Reality the remaining Scholars of Mensis and Pthumerians can't follow Micolash into the Nightmare of Mensis. Hence why Queen Yharnam shows up after you kill Rom, she transports you to Yahar'Gul because she needs someone to retrieve Mergo from the Wet Nurse. Basically killing Rom is necessary to get into the Nightmare of Mensis and Mergo's Loft.
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Mar 7, 2016 11:53
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Lord_Magmar posted:Fair enough. However I'm pretty sure killing Rom was necessary, at least to reach the final goal of the Hunter. But yes Rom might just be hiding the ritual effects, however if it is it's hiding them from everyone including those performing the Ritual. So either way killing Rom allows the ritual to appear completed, regardless of it was already done so or not. "The Byrgenwerth spider hides all manner of rituals, and keeps our lost master from us." The keyword is "hides". It also isn't hiding the ritual from those performing it. Those performing it are hidden along with it, since we cannot see them before Rom is killed. Rom has also been granted eyes by Kos. This would have had to happen before Kos died, and the Fishing Hamlet cursed the scholars of Byrgenwerth. Since Rom was granted eyes by Kos, if she had any loyalty to Kos at all that may set a precedent for her working against Willem. I'm also unconvinced Micolash is the master in that note. There is nothing that refers to him as a master. I would also believe those who are seeking Willem would be the Mensis scholars. There is an item description, I forget which, that alludes to a split within the church. At some point in time after the Healing Church, Choir, and Church Hunters are founded, the College of Mensis is founded. This probably happened after Old Yharnam burned due to the scourge. There could have been a subset of people within the church who wanted to leave it to go back to the teachings of Byrgenwerth, and forsake the use of the old blood as a means of ascending. Since Rom hid their master from them, they eventually formed a new college which seemingly worked to advance what had been started in Byrgenwerth. They stopped using blood and started seeking to ascend with insight, even going so far as to use a cord to try to contact a Great One.
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Mar 7, 2016 15:25
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Actually that's a pretty interesting bit of reasoning. Works well too with what we find out. With the separation of Rituals and Master you might be onto something.
Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Mar 8, 2016 |
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Mar 8, 2016 00:35
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Update: 13. Yahar'gul Revisited
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Mar 8, 2016 00:58
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Update: 14. The One Reborn
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Mar 9, 2016 15:05
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Yahar'gul is quite intimidating first time around when you revisit it post Rom with all the respawning enemies, it really is best to just run like mad to each of the Bell Maidens and kill them quick.
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Mar 9, 2016 15:58
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So there's something very suspicious going on with the "elder sister". The earliest hint though is something a lot of people miss, the little girl only mentions 3 family members; Mother(Viola), Father(Gascoigne) and Grandfather(Henryk?). At no point is an elder sister mentioned by the little girl, and as you hear when leaving she's not all that torn up about the death and is very happy about getting the ribbon. A potential explanation is that she's actually not related at all and just lives nearby, she came to steal or take the ribbon and instead found the house empty. In other discussion I personally think the Yahar'Gul Trio is the hardest hunter fight in the game to take head on and you seem to have ignored them entirely which is probably the correct reaction. I certainly dislike it way more than the other hardest hunter fight. I also think the ritual only speeds up the transformation, once you have the Old Blood in you you're becoming something other than human no matter what. The ritual just kicks into over-drive. The Cramped Caskets are indeed Yharnamite corpses animated by the Ritual of Mensis. The One Reborn on the other hand is mainly Pthumerians I think, in fact the only thing alive in the One Reborn is the main head and I'm pretty sure it's meant to be some Pthumerian Noble/Elder brought back to life by the Bell Maidens and animated by the sacrifice of Yharnamites and Pthumerian corpses. Either that or it is a Great One, however if he is he's not particularly well reborn. Also I want to point out again that I'm pretty sure Pthumerians are just an ancient civilisation of humans, which means Bell Maidens are technically human. In the boss fight I think they buff the boss's defence or damage, they also just spam fireballs at you which is super frustrating. Also I'm pretty sure hitting the skeleton wizard does more damage than hitting anywhere else, presumably because he's what was reborn. I hope you do the DLC before the final transition because you miss out on unique dialogue by doing it after said transition.
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Mar 9, 2016 16:02
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Last I heard (and this was years ago) was that At the Mountains of Madness was cancelled like right before filming started because the people funding it wanted it to be PG-13 instead of R and Del Toro said no.
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Mar 9, 2016 19:40
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I dunno if I would think the One Reborn is a actual Old One - or rather, I don't think the thing you fight is an Old One, but a facsimile. The bell-ringing women (and yes, that ringing DOES sound sinister - again, the sound direction of the game is amazing) do seem to be able to... bring back the dead, to re-shape them (as is seen by the towers of skulls and the wolf-corpses). I think they are trying to bring back the One as best they can, but can only summon... THAT.
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Mar 9, 2016 21:13
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It's notable that the first time you were in Yahar'gul, you heard a great deal of chanting and ritualistic singing - and it got louder the closer you got to the door that was previously locked. And now it's silent. I think the ritual was being performed while you were kidnapped here.
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Mar 9, 2016 21:52
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Jetrauben posted:It's notable that the first time you were in Yahar'gul, you heard a great deal of chanting and ritualistic singing - and it got louder the closer you got to the door that was previously locked. And now it's silent. I think the ritual was being performed while you were kidnapped here. Yup, I posted the lyrics to the ritual earlier in the thread.
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Mar 9, 2016 22:40
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Yeah I think The One Reborn is some Great One Spirit forced into a mushed together corpse body thing by the clutists. The cage helmets are associated with scholars of Mensis, right? So central to this whole crazy cult is a bunch of mummified scholars who've been dead for who knows how long.
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Mar 10, 2016 00:43
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paragon1 posted:Last I heard (and this was years ago) was that At the Mountains of Madness was cancelled like right before filming started because the people funding it wanted it to be PG-13 instead of R and Del Toro said no. That's too bad. I wanted to see this come to fruition. Samovar posted:I dunno if I would think the One Reborn is a actual Old One - or rather, I don't think the thing you fight is an Old One, but a facsimile. The bell-ringing women (and yes, that ringing DOES sound sinister - again, the sound direction of the game is amazing) do seem to be able to... bring back the dead, to re-shape them (as is seen by the towers of skulls and the wolf-corpses). I think they are trying to bring back the One as best they can, but can only summon... THAT. I would agree with that. I think it's the dead spirit of a Great One, or maybe an avatar. It isn't a Great One like the others you fight, though.
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Mar 10, 2016 06:50
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Having recorded to the end of the main plot, I can finally weigh in with opinions that are slightly less misinformed. I don't know what that thing is, still, but it came out of the moon and it's not all right.
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Mar 10, 2016 20:17
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Update: 15. Nightmare Frontier, Amygdala
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Mar 11, 2016 14:37
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Winter Lanterns are indeed one of the most nightmarish enemies in game. Not just because they do frenzy when they see you and deal damage with the black arrows, but if you get a good look at them they're wearing the Doll's clothes and the head itself is made of Messengers. I think they might have the segmented fingers as well. Why they look the way they do is pretty interesting as well. They likely represent Gherman's opinion of the Hunter's Dream, his own personal nightmare. After all they appear to have slit throats and that's how Maria died, plus Gherman hates the Dream after decades of living in it so the parts that make it up haunt him and thus the Nightmares too. However if you stand fast and face them without fear they consistently give you the best method of fighting them. Parry the huge grab animation and visceral when the bar fills and you'll take no frenzy damage. Also yes there is a way out of that hole, it's in the other direction from the Winter Lantern.
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Mar 11, 2016 15:27
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So yeah, fast poison and frenzy are BOTH bleed from the Souls games. At least there's no curse equivalent.
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Mar 11, 2016 16:23
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Isn't Fast Poison just Toxic? It's more damage, dealt at a faster rate, over a longer period of time than slow poison.
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Mar 11, 2016 16:43
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Lord_Magmar posted:Isn't Fast Poison just Toxic? It's more damage, dealt at a faster rate, over a longer period of time than slow poison. Nope. Fast poison is much more similar to frenzy than to slow poison, the difference being the amount of damage dealt (frenzy is 70% max, fp is a flat amount (I think, there aren't really that many sources of it in the game)) and the way it builds up - frenzy bar fills over time after being hit by a source of it, giving you a bit more time until proc even if hit by an amount sufficient to fill the bar.
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Mar 11, 2016 16:55
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Oh I guess I've never actually been fast poisoned then, as I did not know that. Admittedly the sources of fast poison are far and few between in the main game. Now discussing the Nightmare Frontier you can actually shoot Patches from certain locations using the Monocular and one of the longer range guns, I don't think you can kill him though. Patches is also a Chalice Dungeon merchant sometimes, he sells consumables at greatly inflated prices, killing him here replaces him with messengers who keep the inflated prices. Finally the big slug monsters in the poison swamp have messengers on the underside, which means they eat messengers most likely. The Blades of a Mercy being good for PvP is also kind of the point, as the Hunter of Hunters duty is to kill Blood-Addled Hunters, meaning those who invade a lot. The Chikage also has a pretty big weakness, whilst transformed it constantly saps the users health, the Logarius' Wheel has a similar effect but it requires revving and the more you rev it the stronger it's arcane buff and the more health drain it does.
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Mar 12, 2016 00:44
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Update: 16. Celestial Emissary, Ebrietas
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Mar 15, 2016 00:25
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So I want to point out you have the Orphanage confused, the Blue man group is in the Lumenflowers Gardens and are the remains of the Choir. The Emissary himself might not be a member of the choir but the little ones probably are. Meanwhile the building with the wolves and brainsuckers you went through is actually the Orphanage. The Celestial Children, little slug creatures, are the Orphans I'm pretty sure. Interestingly that first bridge you went over that passes in front of the Clocktower has the sound of rain, which is nowhere else in the main game from memory. They're all transformed due to experimentation with the blood of Ebrieatas who just wanted to help the Choir and Church ascend. Imposter Iosefka left because she wanted to be a true Great One not just a Celestial Being. Also Byrgenwerth never met Ebrietas, the Church found her after they split because they needed a fresher source of the Old Blood and because they lost the Pthumerian Chalice during the burning of Old Yharnam probably. The Isz Chalice explains some of this actually, Byrgenwerth only ever visited the Pthumerian and maybe the Loran dungeons. I personally think Isz and Loran were just Pthumerian cities as a bunch of Pthumerian enemies are in both of them too and they share architectural styles, although this is more true of Isz and Pthumeru than Loran. Loran might not be though as it's beneath a desert. Finally the corpse of Rom/a Vacuous Spider is interesting as Ebrietas is the name for a species of butterfly and Rom looks an awful lot like a Caterpillar with wierd legs, so maybe given time Rom would've became like Ebrietas.
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Mar 15, 2016 02:19
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If From followed the typical Lovecraft pattern, Great Isz is probably a city of some sort founded by the Great Ones when they came to Earth, that they subsequently abandoned for whatever reason. Also, I've been assuming Paleblood is the condition the player character went to Yharnam to get treated for, that's what the initial creepy old man convo that started this whole mess seemed to indicate, anyway. Maybe it's part of the reason the protagonist hasn't gone completely crazy or exploded or turned into a monster/alien/whatever like everyone else seems to be doing? paragon1 fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Mar 15, 2016 |
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Mar 15, 2016 03:13
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paragon1 posted:If From followed the typical Lovecraft pattern, Great Isz is probably a city of some sort founded by the Great Ones when they came to Earth, that they subsequently abandoned for whatever reason. I should really check out the Isz Chalice Dungeons. I was imagining a dungeon full of kin, but by the time I killed Yharnam, Pthumerian Queen I was super done with the experience. I have a theory behind why you're not affected like everyone else. I believe hunters are given the old blood like the rest, but what makes them hunters is they are able to tame the scourge and use the power of the blood. I think this is what the beast getting set on fire in the opening sequence alludes to. Also, clearly if you imbibe too much in the old blood, you see what the outcome is in the DLC.
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Mar 15, 2016 05:38
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I always thought Hunters of the Dream weren't immune so much as being protected by the Dream, whatever that might entail. I personally think the transformations themselves have to do with Caryll Runes. So imagine a Great One observing humans, then the Human is treated with the Old Blood and suddenly the Great One can interact. First thing it does is remove imperfections, diseases and injuries and the like. Then it begins to talk to the Human, and like their blood the words of a Great One can change people. So Gascoigne has the word for Hunter, but also the word for Beast and maybe even Blood. When he loses his grasp on being a Hunter all that's left is beast and so that's what he becomes in the eyes of the Great Ones and thus he transforms. All the people in various states of transformation have stronger or weaker words, meanwhile Hunters of the Dream have the Hunter Rune so deeply engraved that it cannot be removed at all, this is the Hunter's Mark and it over-writes all other transformations until you have finished your duty and maybe even beyond. The Celestial Emissary and friends is the Choir working out the correct combination of blood and insight to have the words Kin engraved, allowing them to become like Great Ones but not truly of them, Rom is also like this but might one day metamorphosis further and become a full Great One. The Beast sets on fire because the Dream and it's messengers have found you a suitable choice for the Hunter of this Hunt, in the past both Djura and Eileen were chosen in much the same way. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 05:48 on Mar 15, 2016 |
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Mar 15, 2016 05:45
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All of Ebriatas's attacks come from the front or sides so if you can stay directly behind her she can't do a lot to hurt you, it's harder than it sounds though as she almost constantly tries to face you.
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Mar 15, 2016 10:28
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Judge Tesla posted:All of Ebriatas's attacks come from the front or sides so if you can stay directly behind her she can't do a lot to hurt you, it's harder than it sounds though as she almost constantly tries to face you. Except for homing light missiles of death, but yeah, it's possible. I one shot Ebrietas with my arcane character, quickly, so I wasn't expecting that much of a fight. Tiny Tonitrus is pretty good, it turns out.
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Mar 15, 2016 12:46
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Ebrietas's design is AMAZING.
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Mar 15, 2016 19:27
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Update: 17. Nightmare of Mensis, Micolash Sorry for the late update. Real life likes to get in the way sometimes.
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Mar 18, 2016 05:08
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In between them being fuzzy, not having any apparent fangs, and that left-right-left-right boxing flail, these spiders hit a certain level of ridiculousness where I can't help but imagine Micolash and a bunch of Mensis Scholars gathered around them trying to figure out whose fault this is. Same with the dog-crows, for that matter. "Look, we've ALL noticed that they make dog noises but why would you imagine THIS?"
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Mar 18, 2016 11:35
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Another way of preventing the parasites from springing out of those beasts is killing them with a visceral attack.
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Mar 18, 2016 13:24
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Visceral Attacks also stop worm spawning. I personally think the big spider is easier to fight in the room as long as you kill all the others first by sneaking near the bell maiden. It has bad turning so you can get behind and stay there pretty easy. The Hunter you fought with the Rosmarinus was actually Choir Intelligence Edgar, although if he's from Mensis spying on the Choir or the other way around is unknown. Augur can Backstab too. The Choir and Mensis split in the past, the Choir worked with Ebrietas and Mensis worked with, someone else. I have a theory on when the split was and some other stuff around why Mensis is what it became. The attendants are probably 'living humans' and I think a later character sort of explains what they are, or at least gives a reasonable theory. Micolash Cage is almost certainly the Mummy. Kos and the Cosmos are probably different Great Ones actually based on the DLC stuff. When we get to it I'll probably explain more as I have a few reasons for saying so. Also based on Micolash' quotes I suspect the split was the Choir doubling down on Ebrietas blood and the Mensis' Scholars trying to find other methods. As far as I know the Cage doesn't actually have any effects whatsoever in game. Also an interesting fact, every weapon has a different rally strength. The Blades of Mercy have the lowest and the other siderite weapons probably have the highest.
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Mar 18, 2016 13:32
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