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Gyshall posted:My favorite scene in the series was when Liz beats the poo poo out of Claudia. Hi, Keri  https://twitter.com/TheAmericansFX/status/999696531119919104
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Jun 3, 2018 04:25
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Sinteres posted:I was kind of thinking of the Center's anti-Gorbachev stance as ultimately being kind of vindicated by Putin coming to power as a former KGB officer, but I looked up his history and apparently he resigned from the KGB during the coup attempt Putin is an opportunist. he resigned most likely because he thought the coup would fail (and thus ruin the career of anyone associated with it), not because he thought it was wrong
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Jun 3, 2018 04:40
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Earwicker posted:even the mail robot will soon die of obsolescence, scrapped for parts and forgotten They just gotta repurpose it into a food robot.
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Jun 3, 2018 05:18
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CBJSprague24 posted:
If Disney was smart they would snap up Holly Taylor to star in a Squirrel Girl movie.
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Jun 3, 2018 05:53
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Vakal posted:If Disney was smart they would snap up Holly Taylor to star in a Squirrel Girl movie. They already cast Milana Vayntrub (the girl from those AT&T commercials) for a Squirrel Girl and the New Warriors TV show, but it doesn't have a network right now, and I don't know if anything has been written or shot yet.
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Jun 3, 2018 15:44
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MC Fruit Stripe posted:I disagree with your assessment of Elizabeth. Elizabeth didn't turn against her country, the center did. Claudia lashed out because she (Claudia) was destroyed and wanted to her hurt her on her way down. The center's attempted coup isn't Elizabeth's problem. She has worked for Russia and continued to do so. As a committed communist she directly helped keep Gorbachev in power, who would go on to destroy effectively communism and the Soviet Union. Just because she was acting loyally at the time doesn't mean she isn't directly responsible for the collapse of everything she has fought for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgm14D1jHUw
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Jun 3, 2018 16:01
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Big Bad Voodoo Lou posted:They already cast Milana Vayntrub (the girl from those AT&T commercials) for a Squirrel Girl and the New Warriors TV show, but it doesn't have a network right now, and I don't know if anything has been written or shot yet. I think they shot a pilot, and have the season written. I think Vayntrub is a great choice to play Squirrel Girl, but watching the finale, the thought did occur to me that Taylor would be a great choice too.
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Jun 3, 2018 18:22
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:As a committed communist But see that's what the final two episodes were showing us. Liz isn't committed to Communism, she is committed to being an agent of the Russian state. A big theme of the show, maybe THE big theme of the show, was that it took Liz until literally the last season to realize that she isn't just a tool, that she can and does have feelings of her own. Liz was likely not sitting around reading up on old Commie writers or philosophy. She just didn't care in that way. She cared about being the best agent she could be, because that was what she was taught to be. When faced with "I can betray the literal leaders of my country, or I can betray the sneaky people working from within to take down the leaders by espionage", she realized that yes, she's a spy, but she's not a spy for her own country. The ideology we see her express is "We're doing this to make the world a better place". By what everyone is saying at the time of the finale, bringing about peace between the US and Russia would in fact be making the world a better place. Liz is a soldier and when she finally makes a decision based on her own evolving values, she makes the "right" one because she's been doing this long enough to realize that some people want a Forever War and some people actually want peace, and she had realized Claudia was an "we have always been at war with Oceania" type.
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Jun 4, 2018 02:45
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Caught up thru the finale today. Absolutely destroyed me, one of my favorites, up there (for different reasons) with things like Breaking Bad, Justified, Friday Night Lights, and Halt & Catch Fire. The moment I knew this series was something special was sometime in S1 or S2 - it was a shot of Philip heading to a parked car on an overcast day - when I realized how...ordinary everything is, how specifically bleak and crushing regular life could be during that time period. The finale captured that and continued the excellent use of licensed music. Brothers in Arms was good, but With or Without You was  . Lots of great moments in the episode. I like how Stan gradually lowers the gun while Philip is coming (mostly) clean in the garage. Almost all of it happens off camera, and it's easy to miss. Really, though, all the Emmys for the cast & crew. This shot hosed me up, especially following the confrontation. Pretty much sums up the series for me. 
isk fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Jun 4, 2018 |
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Jun 4, 2018 03:09
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precision posted:But see that's what the final two episodes were showing us. Liz isn't committed to Communism, she is committed to being an agent of the Russian state. A big theme of the show, maybe THE big theme of the show, was that it took Liz until literally the last season to realize that she isn't just a tool, that she can and does have feelings of her own.
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Jun 4, 2018 04:01
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Fast Luck posted:lmao Elizabeth hated capitalism and was a true believer all series long, and you watched her save that one negotiator and you stroke your chin and go, "Ah, she was loyal to Russia all along, and didn't care about communism." Hell no, she was giving Paige readings, she was talking politics with Gregory, she was true blue, but her killer instinct was numbed a bit by all the murders and Philip, and then she found out she was being lied to and the guy was innocent, and she buckled. She saw the negotiator wasn't giving away anything unacceptable and took the responding short-term action instead of looking at the 1000-foot view because she was sick of mindlessly taking orders. That doesn't mean the previous 75 episodes didn't happen or you're reading the show correctly by throwing them out and jumping to a new conclusion that never had any backing before, and frankly doesn't have any backing here, ie her reasoning was definitely what I just laid out and not some nonsense about "Russia, not communism." sir, this is a mcdonalds
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Jun 4, 2018 04:08
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your shifts over bro you should be clocked out by now
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Jun 4, 2018 04:18
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All the times she postured about being super into Communism were because that was the official party line of her country. Once the party line of her country changed, she, as a loyal agent of her country, she adjusted her thinking. Come on this is not even subtext, it's text.
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Jun 4, 2018 05:11
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precision posted:All the times she postured about being super into Communism were because that was the official party line of her country. at no point during the show did the official party line of her country change. Russia was most definitely officially Communist under Gorbachev in 1987.
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Jun 4, 2018 16:09
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precision posted:All the times she postured about being super into Communism were because that was the official party line of her country. Fast Luck fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Jun 4, 2018 |
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Jun 4, 2018 17:47
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to put it in perspective, I'm pretty sure there are plenty of people in the US military and intelligence community who absolutely hate Trump, but who would also be extremely angry if they found out their bosses were using them to frame an kill an innocent person as part of some coup attempt against Trump. like there may be FBI agents out there who are big fans of Mueller or Comey and would love to see Trump gone but who'd still report on their colleagues trying to do a coup its not about ideology or loyalty to the leader it's about being used and manipulated and too many innocent people dying also, for someone who has faith in their system the idea is that a bad leader should be voted out or impeached in a public trail or otherwise removed by legitimate means within the system, not forcibly removed by intrigue. the idea that a coup would be necessary is also proof that the system has on some level failed, which would be a sort of cognitive dissonance for someone as faithful to the Party as Elizabeth Earwicker fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Jun 4, 2018 |
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Jun 4, 2018 17:54
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Yeah, "Can you murder this innocent comrade so we can frame him for something he didn't do, by fabricating your reports actually, so that we'll have a pretense to oust the currently sitting and legitimate secretary of the Communist Party as he currently strives for peace" is a pretty big ask indeed. And yet by actively preventing that plot, the show is putting at least a share of the collapse of socialism in the USSR and the USSR itself and the massive human tragedy of shock therapy on Elizabeth's shoulders, personally, after she had given all her life (and her children) to the cause! It's the ultimate punishment. She's gonna go from anti hero to an hero lol
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Jun 4, 2018 18:39
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I think people are also underestimating the impact of the sick artist she was caring for as a cover, forcing her to try to make art herself. I think it was starting to have a similar effect on her that EST did on Philip, making her face the emotional burden of her work in a way she wasn't acknowledging before
Earwicker fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Jun 4, 2018 |
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Jun 4, 2018 19:02
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Earwicker posted:I think people are also underestimating the impact of the sick artist she was caring for as a cover, forcing her to try to make art herself. I think it was starting to have a similar effect on her that EST did on Philip, making her face the emotional burden of her work in a way she wasn't acknowledging before Also that art was fantastic. Just unbelievably evocative.
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Jun 4, 2018 19:13
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Earwicker posted:I think people are also underestimating the impact of the sick artist she was caring for as a cover, forcing her to try to make art herself. I think it was starting to have a similar effect on her that EST did on Philip, making her face the emotional burden of her work in a way she wasn't acknowledging before 100%
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Jun 4, 2018 19:19
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Fast Luck posted:The actual text is that in order to justify her sort of out of character decision, they inserted a flashback where in training she's told not to let a comrade die. Those flashbacks were in the episode after Elizabeth had already decided not to go through with killing Nesterenko. I think it was less a justification for her deciding to not go through with the hit and more the situation-- not letting this good man, her comrade, get gunned down for nothing-- reminding her of the incident. It was also a juxtaposition of her leaving Tatiana lying dead in the street. I think it's key that when Elizabeth asks where the orders for this plot against Gorbachev are coming from, Claudia tells her it's coming from the top people at the Centre, who all agree it's the right thing to do. Elizabeth goes 'Not the Party?' to which Claudia goes 'Well, we're all in the Party ...' and Elizabeth refuses. She's not going to go against her nation, even if it's arguably the right thing to do for Communism. This lines up well with Phil later saying the only reason he spied on Elizabeth is because it was the right thing to do for their country, and she would have done the same if she thought so, too. I just don't buy her only refusing to do it because Claudia lied to her and was going to falsify reports. There's more to her decision than being bitter. Elizabeth is all hoo-rah! Communism because it's all she knows, and she was indoctrinated even harder than most at a young as gently caress age so she could become an illegal. But she came from nothing, had no future, and did all of this because she thought it would make Russia and the world a better place. Especially a better place for people like her with the most humble of poo poo beginnings in her miserable country. It stands to reason that as she got older and experienced more, especially in a country so different from her own, that her ideas of what's right and not would change, especially as her deeds start to weigh down on her. When it really comes down to it, I think Elizabeth cares far more for making sure her country flourishes and life gets better for the people there, whether it goes against her initial ideals or not. Maybe she'll be miserable that what she did will lead to the end of the Soviet Union, but I don't think it's unreasonable to think that she's looking more at the bigger picture at this point. Especially now she's back in Russia and can see and learn what life has really been like there this whole time she was gone. Truly see what it was like, and not just the movies and shows Claudia watched with her and Paige. idk I just think Elizabeth is a far more complex character than some people are giving her credit for, and her going against Claudia wasn't just pulled out of the showrunners asses. There's far more to her than just  and hating America.
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Jun 4, 2018 19:44
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I think Elizabeth's uncompromising dedication to the cause is part of what has made her complex tbh. Like I don't think Philip is more developed just because he feels bad and goes to EST. Her steadfast unwavering commitment while also trying to live a cover American life and be a mother to her children and a wife to someone who was losing faith was very complicated, and refusing to go along with an off-the-books black op against the literal Communist Party doesn't make her not a communist or undo who she's always been. Like, she was not onboard enough with the some hardline wing of the KGB to blindly assassinate a dude on their assurances that a coup was what's good for the revolution, but the KGB isn't really one-to-one analogous with communism, and she happened to disagree with these people's intentions in this case and not wish to be a mindless gun-for-hire on what was an off-the-books unsanctioned mission.
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Jun 4, 2018 20:19
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Fast Luck posted:I think Elizabeth's uncompromising dedication to the cause is part of what has made her complex tbh. Like I don't think Philip is more developed just because he feels bad and goes to EST. Her steadfast unwavering commitment while also trying to live a cover American life and be a mother to her children and a wife to someone who was losing faith was very complicated, and refusing to go along with an off-the-books black op against the literal Communist Party doesn't make her not a communist or undo who she's always been. Like, she was not onboard enough with the some hardline wing of the KGB to blindly assassinate a dude on their assurances that a coup was what's good for the revolution, but the KGB isn't really one-to-one analogous with communism and she disagreed with these people's intentions. Oh, for sure, I'm not trying to say she isn't a communist at all, or anything. Just that I'm amazed how many people seem to think her deciding to go against the centre was out of character for her because e: less that she saw through communism and thought it was bad and more those ideals are still v much her own, but she's seen and done too much to only look at it as black and white, russia vs america, communism vs not communism any more
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Jun 4, 2018 20:21
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esperterra posted:I think it's key that when Elizabeth asks where the orders for this plot against Gorbachev are coming from, Claudia tells her it's coming from the top people at the Centre, who all agree it's the right thing to do. Elizabeth goes 'Not the Party?' to which Claudia goes 'Well, we're all in the Party ...' and Elizabeth refuses. I thought this part was kind of weird actually, implying that the division was the KGB vs. the Party. the actual coup attempt against Gorbachev (which was a bit later than depicted on the show) involved high ranking members of both the KGB and the Party, including Gorbachev's own Vice President
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Jun 4, 2018 20:26
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Earwicker posted:I thought this part was kind of weird actually, implying that the division was the KGB vs. the Party. the actual coup attempt against Gorbachev (which was a bit later than depicted on the show) involved high ranking members of both the KGB and the Party, including Gorbachev's own Vice President Claudia does mention that there are other officials, military leaders, etc who are in on the coup. It's the entire concept of working against the party and country she's loyal to that Elizabeth chafes against, even if there's a bunch of higher up people back home who are doing the same.
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Jun 4, 2018 20:28
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esperterra posted:Claudia does mention that there are other officials, military leaders, etc who are in on the coup. It's the entire concept of working against the party and country she's loyal to that Elizabeth chafes against, even if there's a bunch of higher up people back home who are doing the same. That plus lying to her the whole time and only giving the real story after she figured out something was up was the worst possible way to present all the information to her. I think convincing Elizabeth that Gorbachev was leading the country to destruction might have been doable, but trying to trick her into what was essentially treason was a bad move.
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Jun 5, 2018 03:34
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Yeah, if Claudia had played the long game and was upfront the whole time I could definitely buy Elizabeth swaying more toward the coup, for sure. She wasn't expecting Elizabeth to actually ask questions this time lol
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Jun 5, 2018 03:57
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esperterra posted:Elizabeth is all hoo-rah! Communism because it's all she knows, and she was indoctrinated even harder than most at a young as gently caress age so she could become an illegal. But she came from nothing, had no future, and did all of this because she thought it would make Russia and the world a better place. Especially a better place for people like her with the most humble of poo poo beginnings in her miserable country. It stands to reason that as she got older and experienced more, especially in a country so different from her own, that her ideas of what's right and not would change, especially as her deeds start to weigh down on her. yeah this is a better wording at what i was trying to get at. it's also a mega key line "when they ask us to do these things, we are doing them" reminding Liz that she isn't a T-1000
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Jun 5, 2018 04:15
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esperterra posted:Yeah, if Claudia had played the long game and was upfront the whole time I could definitely buy Elizabeth swaying more toward the coup, for sure. She wasn't expecting Elizabeth to actually ask questions this time lol Might've also been one of the reasons Gabriel decided to bow out. He didn't want any part of it.
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Jun 5, 2018 05:09
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BIG HEADLINE posted:Might've also been one of the reasons Gabriel decided to bow out. He didn't want any part of it. I was really surprised Gabriel didn't have a tiny cameo at the end. Like I expected him to be there when Arkady pulled up.
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Jun 5, 2018 05:33
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I would be totally pumped for a Stan Beeman spin-off show that picks up directly where we left off Stan at the end of this season. Guy is a complex fun character, and I feel as great a loss for not seeing him anymore as I do the rest of the characters.
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Jun 5, 2018 17:18
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precision posted:I was really surprised Gabriel didn't have a tiny cameo at the end. Like I expected him to be there when Arkady pulled up. a Frank Langella cameo is probably very expensive and they spent the money on With Or Without You instead
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Jun 5, 2018 17:56
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Dennis McClaren posted:I would be totally pumped for a Stan Beeman spin-off show that picks up directly where we left off Stan at the end of this season. Guy is a complex fun character, and I feel as great a loss for not seeing him anymore as I do the rest of the characters. they could do it as a crossover with the Len Deighton "Berlin Game/Mexico Set/London Match" series which iirc takes place at almost the same time. just to have The FBI Agent Who Was Best Friends With The Spy Who Murdered His Partner meet up with The MI6 Agent Who Was Married to a KGB Colonel For Like A Decade
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Jun 5, 2018 18:02
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Stan Beeman prequel!
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Jun 5, 2018 20:16
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one interesting thing that wasn't really addressed directly in the finale is the fact that Stan did undercover work before the start of the show. it's mentioned in the first season a couple times and then not really brought up again. he had some undercover identity in a white supremacist militia or something like that. so he may well have been a fake "best friend" to someone else (a nazi i guess)
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Jun 5, 2018 20:39
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Earwicker posted:one interesting thing that wasn't really addressed directly in the finale is the fact that Stan did undercover work before the start of the show. it's mentioned in the first season a couple times and then not really brought up again. he had some undercover identity in a white supremacist militia or something like that. so he may well have been a fake "best friend" to someone else (a nazi i guess) This is why I think Phillip's " I never wanted to lie to you" speech worked on Stan and why he let them go. I'm sure he might have met some people in his undercover work that he might have had an actual connection with and felt bad about lying/manipulating them.
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Jun 5, 2018 22:44
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Earwicker posted:a Frank Langella cameo is probably very expensive and they spent the money on With Or Without You instead these guys are from England and who gives a poo poo! It's just a bunch of names that don't mean diddly poo poo!
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Jun 5, 2018 23:13
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Jeoh posted:Stan Beeman prequel! Or as Nina  would say, "Stahn".
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Jun 6, 2018 00:57
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The garage scene is finally on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzg8bPepMn4 I should use this as a cooking timer. It feels like 2 minutes.
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Jun 7, 2018 07:07
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Gyshall posted:Or as Nina Watch Beemon Wednesdays at 10, only on FX
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