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dems are gonna pretend none of this is happening and are gonna use Northrup (or whatever his name is) to become more racist
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Nov 8, 2017 05:13
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Business Gorillas posted:dems are gonna pretend none of this is happening and are gonna use Northrup (or whatever his name is) to become more racist yeah but at least this shows we can meet people where they live and build momentum for running as actual fuckin socialists
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Nov 8, 2017 05:24
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Business Gorillas posted:dems are gonna pretend none of this is happening and are gonna use Northrup (or whatever his name is) to become more racist Speaking of, lol: https://twitter.com/jmartNYT/status/928101174049411072 Serves him right.
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Nov 8, 2017 05:26
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How many times shall Caesar bleed in sport? All of them. All of the times.
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Nov 8, 2017 05:28
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Solid Poopsnake posted:So I think I get how market economics are inherently exploitative, even in a worker co-op, market socialism situation. However, I am (as I've said) an old, idiot piece of poo poo who has grown up with market economics being the only option. How does a central planning group adequately anticipate need across numerous, diverse communities? I work in a role where forecasts are central to planning future need and man, I can tell you that poo poo is hit or miss at best. I'm troubled by the idea of that type of modeling being responsible for whether or not people eat or have a place to live. My short answer is: it doesn't have to. Capitalism doesn't anticipate needs, it reacts to stimulus, and the main stimulus being price signals and sales numbers, but that's obviously not the only one - real world companies spend a lot on market research, precisely because price signals are so insufficient. But as far as the average consumer is concerned, however, you just have a list of products at a certain price, with an assumption that they're manufactured well enough to meet regulatory standards and such. There's no need to replace that system with anything else, yet, because the act of consumption doesn't really have anything to do with ownership of the means of production. So, in my system, you'll have to separate parts off the economy, the consumer economy and the state economy. Consumers spend "money" on products the same as you do now, retail exists the same as it does now. But behind the scenes, things are different, because all the factories and warehouses and such are owned by the community. All the consumer-facing economy does, is attempt to maximize the flow of "money" - you have a simple optimization people. I put "money" in air quotes here though, because it's not the same as capitalist money, since it doesn't serve the same purpose as far as the factories are concerned - the entire cycle of this "money" is selling, products -> wages -> products, it's not used for investment. All you do then, is try to maximize consumer spending. But what do you have to balance that against? The answer is: labor-time. You give every 'intermediary' product a cost, measured in seconds, of the total labor used to produce it: The labor of the people acquiring the resources, refining the resources, designing the product, building the product, the fractional cost of the of labor-time of the capital resources used (tools and such), etc. So essentially, you have a giant numerical optimization problem: "Maximize consumer spending, while minimize labor time". You meet demand by increasing consumer spending, and measure efficiency through decreasing the total labortime cost of a given product. You could run that algorithmically, and indeed there are a lot of optimization tools available for that (gradient descent, monte carlo, etc). But that's only half the economy, because you also have to meet non-consumer needs. That's the state economy. There, your objective is whatever objective the government decides, and your cost is still labor-time. So, if society decides to built a space rocket or whatever, then your optimization problem is 'built a rocket that costs the least total labor-time". Out of necessity, it might be better to put housing as a matter for the state economy, simply because of its massive upfront capital costs, and then have all housing essentially be public housing, that is allocated or rented as befits the sensibilities of the people. And since you decoupled wages from commodity product, you can set them at whatever levels you want, that you think is fairest. That would, again, be a matter of public debate. There are two main issues here, however, ones that have to be discussed. The first is the soviet union. The majority of deaths attributed to the soviet union are usually over-inflated, by people with a strong ideological axe to grind. The oft-cited 100 million figure is from Robert Conquest, and he got that by projecting the birth rate pre-soviet union, comparing that with the birth rate post-soviet union, and calling any 'non-births' a death. But the failures aren't totally imaginary, and the deaths there are obviously real deaths associated with both short-comings and outright corruption. Purges happened, and famines happened. How do you prevent a repeat? The second is a matter of trust: I talked a lot about what should be done, but not how, and in particular, by who. How can we be sure that the directives we lay out, for how the economy should be run, are actually followed? How is that measured, and corrected? The answer to both, is the same: democratic involvement. Only be including and empowering the ordinary people, can errors be prevented, and trust gained. That means a rationing of political power, but also some amount of oversight by ordinary people, over the process of product. You can't 'have a vote' for everything, but we already have small, more useful ideas to guide us here: the idea of a jury. By using juries of common people, to hold each part of the system accountable, the system as a whole should conform to the public interest, and not the set of private interests of any group or class of people. rudatron has issued a correction as of 05:37 on Nov 8, 2017 |
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Nov 8, 2017 05:31
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All of that is mostly garbage though, in the face of the much simpler idea: it's important to be flexible. Have a general idea of what you want, and why you want, and be willing to try out new things. It's neither possible, nor desirable, to create some impossible road-map, for what exactly has to be done, without any supporting data or evidence to back it up. You just have to try things, on a small scale, see what works and what doesn't, and keep doing what works, scale it up. Be guided by principles, "we need production for use", "we need democracy", etc, but don't get too attached to any one way of doing things. Defer to evidence, as any good scientist does, but practice socialist values.
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Nov 8, 2017 05:35
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proof of concept posted:this is the raddest thing I ever saw "Freedom to assassinate those we don't like" FINALLY, someone gets it.
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Nov 8, 2017 05:38
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rudatron posted:All of that is mostly garbage though, in the face of the much simpler idea: it's important to be flexible. Have a general idea of what you want, and why you want, and be willing to try out new things. It's neither possible, nor desirable, to create some impossible road-map, for what exactly has to be done, without any supporting data or evidence to back it up. You just have to try things, on a small scale, see what works and what doesn't, and keep doing what works, scale it up. Be guided by principles, "we need production for use", "we need democracy", etc, but don't get too attached to any one way of doing things. Defer to evidence, as any good scientist does, but practice socialist values.  
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Nov 8, 2017 05:42
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lol the metro dc dsa has a better electoral socialism program then the entire loving DSA lmao best loving chapter
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Nov 8, 2017 05:45
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Oh, and as an aside Solid Poopsnake: Self-deprecation is only okay is small doses. No one is going to hold it against, if you need help understanding. Ignorance is the 'default' state. There's too much information in the world, for any one person to retain more than a thimble full. Respect yourself, because if you can't respect yourself, you can't respect others.
rudatron has issued a correction as of 06:19 on Nov 8, 2017 |
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Nov 8, 2017 05:49
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At my first meeting I asked when I'd be having my first struggle session, and they assured me that we'd do it as soon as they can get Bob Avakian to Skype in.
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Nov 8, 2017 05:52
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proof of concept posted:this is the raddest thing I ever saw This would make a great metal album cover. Also lol at the GOP trying to use anti commie poo poo at actual socialists. That only works with liberal terrified of that label.
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Nov 8, 2017 06:37
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GunnerJ posted:Speaking of, lol: gently caress that douche dsa take the reigns
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Nov 8, 2017 06:41
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woow everything coming out of seattle sucks hugely though, big business candidates across the board
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Nov 8, 2017 07:10
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if all the victories tonight have you hyped up just wait for next year
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Nov 8, 2017 07:15
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Ace of Baes posted:if all the victories tonight have you hyped up just wait for next year https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBLdQ1a4-JI
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Nov 8, 2017 07:29
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Karl Barks posted:central planning is highly effective at creating universal standards for vital goods/services like education, healthcare, housing, military hardware, etc. it's not so good at consumer products. look at soviet cameras, tvs, computers, etc for examples it may very well be as effective at creating consumer goods but the arms race never let us see if that's the case and in countries like the gdr, central planning WAS very good at making consumer products
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Nov 8, 2017 07:39
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i've got a pretty kickass mechanical soviet wristwatch
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Nov 8, 2017 07:42
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Business Gorillas posted:looking forward to the homework explainer post ready for it? here it is: This is good. you're still an idiot though
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Nov 8, 2017 07:47
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:i've got a pretty kickass mechanical soviet wristwatch pics?
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Nov 8, 2017 07:50
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CARTER IS A MARINE THUS BASICALLY A COP HES DANNY FONTENTNETEOOEN
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Nov 8, 2017 08:05
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freckle posted:pics?  okay it's a cheap one (there are much better ones) and it might be a bootleg raketa knockoff but it's my cheap, bootleg raketa knockoff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWp6hZ-5ndc&t=246s One day I'm going to pony up some dough for one of these:  Combine these with a red-and-black flannel shirt and you'll be the talk of the chapter meeting BrutalistMcDonalds has issued a correction as of 08:28 on Nov 8, 2017 |
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Nov 8, 2017 08:20
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Nov 8, 2017 08:22
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https://twitter.com/redistrict/status/928150364196671488
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Nov 8, 2017 08:58
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Yinlock posted:congrats to the dsa for achieving tangible results while also being decent human beings, something the dems assured everyone was impossible feelin extremely  this morning
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Nov 8, 2017 10:21
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R. Guyovich posted:it may very well be as effective at creating consumer goods but the arms race never let us see if that's the case yeah if things are stable i don't know why you wouldn't hit just above the expected demand, there's no way it'd be worse than what we have now for your keurig, cool jackets, crest xtra whitening toothpaste, or whatever the hell else people think they can't live without
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Nov 8, 2017 11:26
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is there a comprehensive list of all the DSA people who got elected today?
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Nov 8, 2017 11:30
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https://twitter.com/LarryWebsite/status/928160582917853185
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Nov 8, 2017 11:30
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gently caress yeah.
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Nov 8, 2017 12:55
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https://twitter.com/NicholsUprising/status/928143501614813184
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Nov 8, 2017 13:37
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hell yeah king killing association in full effect after last night gang tag when
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Nov 8, 2017 14:07
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COOL CORN posted:hell yeah king killing association in full effect after last night
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Nov 8, 2017 14:12
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oh cool
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Nov 8, 2017 14:27
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I'm still catching up on all the news, but this is very good and cool.
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Nov 8, 2017 14:49
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I have joined this organization. I hope the results from yesterday encourage others to do so as well. Maybe there's hope for us bleeding hearts after all.
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Nov 8, 2017 14:50
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this isn't the bleeding heart club this is the "put on grease paint and make other hearts bleed with our hatchets, literally" club
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Nov 8, 2017 14:52
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Anime Schoolgirl posted:this isn't the bleeding heart club this is the "put on grease paint and make other hearts bleed with our hatchets, literally" club Darkcarnival Socialists of America
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Nov 8, 2017 14:56
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:I have joined this organization. I hope the results from yesterday encourage others to do so as well. Maybe there's hope for us bleeding hearts after all. We are red, mad, and nude here, comrade. Let us slap our asses and build a better world.
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Nov 8, 2017 14:56
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Well you all seem a bit unorthodox, but drat it, you get results.
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Nov 8, 2017 15:01
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deoperationalize yourself and face to juggalo moob flashing
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Nov 8, 2017 15:02
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