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TetsuoTW posted:And if they don't, they're an android, and should be destroyed. Well no, go back to my post. Everybody poops. Androids simply generate different types of waste.
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Aug 22, 2016 04:05
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Show me one atom of poop. Then you have my permission to die.
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Aug 22, 2016 04:11
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Pratchet's very poor writing is making things needlessly convoluted, and now we have people sincerely arguing for the existence of Santa Claus or something. Except I'm not endorsing paganism? I'm endorsing the idea of belief, because believing in things is something that makes us human. Much like believing that Santa Clause will give us presents if we are good for a year many people believe that they will take their place at Jesus' side if they've been good for their life. I personally am a Christian, but I will not say other systems of belief are wrong so long as they don't endorse needless cruelty or immoral actions from my point of view, and much like sometimes violence or killing are justified so is lying, although governments should not lie to their people about problems because that's a malicious lie. Please stop personally attacking me because I tried to have a discussion, I've heard your point of view and have realised that it is valid, if different.
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Aug 22, 2016 04:29
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Yea, Terry Pratchett is a fantastic writer so it's really weird for someone to be like "Yeah he's a terrible writer". Very Bizarre.
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Aug 22, 2016 05:12
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Well no, go back to my post. Everybody poops. Androids simply generate different types of waste.
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Aug 22, 2016 05:13
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Well no, go back to my post. Everybody poops. Androids simply generate different types of waste. What do chatbots generate?
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Aug 22, 2016 05:32
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RBA Starblade posted:What do chatbots generate? Everybody posts
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Aug 22, 2016 05:40
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Hollismason posted:Yea, Terry Pratchett is a fantastic writer so it's really weird for someone to be like "Yeah he's a terrible writer". Very Bizarre. I read the book GOing Postal & that quote and as a collected work i am not feelin Terry Pratchett
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Aug 22, 2016 05:44
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Hollismason posted:Yea, Terry Pratchett is a fantastic writer so it's really weird for someone to be like "Yeah he's a terrible writer". Very Bizarre. His prose is real bad and in terms of what he has to say he's the literary equivalent of Tom Petty. Night Watch is his only decent book.
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Aug 22, 2016 05:53
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Like people are taking the most hostile reading of that Death quote possible, when in fact it's really just expressing basic existentialist concepts very, very clumsily. "Human beings create meaning in an absurd universe."
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Aug 22, 2016 05:59
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Like people are taking the most hostile reading of that Death quote possible, when in fact it's really just expressing basic existentialist concepts very, very clumsily. "Human beings create meaning in an absurd universe." I just don't get these comments along the lines of "wow, you really need your Batman to be a grimdark killer don't you?" when people defending BvS are just accepting this version of Batman as one interesting look at the character among so many other versions. No one is saying that Snyder has discovered the One True Batman, but within the context of the BvS world it made sense.
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Aug 22, 2016 06:25
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Nah I'm saying fiction is a basic part of human life, and in the context of what is factually real all fiction is technically a lie. That is not to say there is no merit in fiction nor that there is no merit in lying, just that belief is important to humanity. In my opinion the quote is not that humans create meaning in absurd universe, humans create meaning from a rational universe through absurd thoughts. The universe as it is is the ultimate reality, everything else is a variation of that reality because reality is to an extent subjective. I'm not actually arguing against this version of Batman, I'm just having a discussion about why I don't like what I've heard about this version of Batman. Also on the nature of belief, and why the claim that Batman has a no kill policy is an important one even if in practice such a policy is impossible. The lie is not "Batman doesn't kill" the lie is "Batman by his nature must be a killer, because he's a vigilante" the fact is that Batman has a no kill policy because from his internal logic that is one step too far in the pursuit of justice. He refuses to be judge, jury and executioner, he is merely a man who will stop crimes in progress and take people to the police Any deaths from this are accidental or self-defensive and do not change the importance of the claim "Batman doesn't kill", because the claim matters just as much as the reality of such a statement. The claim says to be a hero you must not kill, even in the pursuit of justice, but Batman is not always a hero, he is in fact a vengeful nut-case who happens to do heroic things. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 06:35 on Aug 22, 2016 |
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Aug 22, 2016 06:30
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In the Discworld novels, aren't Death and the Hogfather and so on created by the human belief or insistence that they exist?
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Aug 22, 2016 06:35
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Lord_Magmar posted:I'm not actually arguing against this version of Batman, I'm just having a discussion about why I don't like what I've heard about this version of Batman. Also on the nature of belief, and why the claim that Batman has a no kill policy is an important one even if in practice such a policy is impossible. The lie is not "Batman doesn't kill" the lie is "Batman by his nature must be a killer, because he's a vigilante" the fact is that Batman has a no kill policy because from his internal logic that is one step too far in the pursuit of justice. He refuses to be judge, jury and executioner, he is merely a man who will stop crimes in progress and take people to the police
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Aug 22, 2016 06:42
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:In the Discworld novels, aren't Death and the Hogfather and so on created by the human belief or insistence that they exist? Pretty much. There's a regulatory nature to it all but human belief powers it all.
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Aug 22, 2016 06:44
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Martman posted:Ok, so as far as BvS goes are you then comfortable with saying that this could very well be a Batman with a no-kill policy? He's considering breaking it all throughout the movie against Superman, and ultimately can't do it; beyond that he's just gotten too good at not worrying about the "accidental or self-defensive" kills. Yes, I still don't like it but that's because I want to see a live action version of the Batman: Animated Series Batman or the Arkham Batman, not because there is something inherently wrong with this interpretation of the Batman. Objectively this could be an interesting Batman, but personally I don't find him interesting beyond the discussion that can be had about the character as a whole. Also on the whole belief creates anthropomorphic personifications on the Discworld, but Death himself is different. Death exists because living creatures have a concept of Death and the Discworld is an inherently magical place where concepts become real. Not believing in Death doesn't stop him existing, whereas not believing in a God or the Hogfather does, at best he'd just stop looking like a skeleton in a robe with a big scythe. That's actually largely the plot, an assassin uses ancient magic to stop people believing in the Hogfather, because this will lead to the sun not rising as the original mythology of the Hogfather was a ritualistic sacrifice of a pig on the longest night of the year. Death pretends to be the Hogfather whilst his grand-daughter fights the assassin, because Death isn't allowed to interfere with mortality, he just makes sure it happens correctly. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 07:11 on Aug 22, 2016 |
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Aug 22, 2016 07:06
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Lord_Magmar posted:Except I'm not endorsing paganism? I'm endorsing the idea of belief, because believing in things is something that makes us human. Much like believing that Santa Clause will give us presents if we are good for a year many people believe that they will take their place at Jesus' side if they've been good for their life. It is not a personal attack. It is an impersonal attack. What you are pushing for is a partial regression of Christianity into paganism - Christ as nothing more than a better brand of Santa. And then, note the emphasis on 'our humanity'. We should be very clear: you maintain that 'we' need lies in order to 'stay human'. This is the same logic as that of the Grand Inquisitor in The Brothers Karamazov, who believes that: "Christ has misjudged human nature: the vast majority of humanity cannot handle the freedom which he has given them - in other words, in giving humans freedom to choose, Jesus has excluded the majority of humanity from redemption and doomed it to suffer. In order to bring people happiness, the Inquisitor and the Church thus follow 'the wise spirit, the dread spirit of death and destruction' - namely, the devil - who alone can provide the tools to end all human suffering and unite under the banner of the Church. The multitude should be guided by the few who are strong enough to take on the burden of freedom - only in this way will all mankind live and die happily in ignorance. These few who are strong enough to assume the burden of freedom are the true self-martyrs, dedicating their lives to keep choice from humanity." -Slavoj Zizek, "If There Is a God, Then Anything Is Permitted" What you lose here, along with truth, is the politics of the inhuman - Christ as monstrous Neighbor, Christ as the name of the inhuman excess inherent in man. When we say Batman kills it is not a celebration of 'grimdarkness' but a straightforward observation, akin to saying that Batman poops. Everybody poops. It is the unavoidable consequence of eating and digestion.
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Aug 22, 2016 07:19
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You keep putting words in my mouth and it is very rude, and when you do so is a personal attack against me because you are trying to devalue my position in this argument. I have not said that 'we' need lies in order to 'stay human', I have said that we as humans believe in things, and in doing so we define what we think is human. The existence of Santa Clause and Jesus are both beliefs that people hold, they are neither better nor worse they are different. It is the belief that matters, so long as that belief leads to humans being good people to one another what does it matter where that belief comes from. There are plenty of people who in the name of Jesus have done terrible things, because they believe that what they're doing is right. That is not to say believing in Jesus is wrong, or that believing in anything is wrong, but it is saying that belief creates action. If a child believes that Batman is a hero, and that Batman doesn't kill because heroes don't kill then they are being taught that the heroic thing is to avoid killing, and is that not an important lesson regardless of the truth of the initial statement. I have not said Batman doesn't kill, because as many people have pointed out that's an impossibility considering he is a violent vigilante. I do still maintain that Batman does not execute, because if he did he would no longer be an anti-hero he'd be an anti-villain.
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Aug 22, 2016 07:35
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:When we say Batman kills it is not a celebration of 'grimdarkness' but a straightforward observation, akin to saying that Batman poops. Everybody poops. It is the unavoidable consequence of eating and digestion. When did jijov get a hold of this account? Batman doesn't kill batman doesn't do anything because batman is a fictional character Batman doesn't eat digest or poop naturally either The actions of batman are written down by authors, Batman kills because someone with a pen wanted to make a point
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Aug 22, 2016 07:43
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Wait, Batman isn't real? This is a revelation!
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Aug 22, 2016 07:58
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The greatest tragedy of the 21st Century is that Terry Pratchett died of Alzheimer's, and not SMG. Or maybe the vast abuse perpetrated on the poor and disenfranchised around the world, but probably the not dying bit.
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Aug 22, 2016 08:20
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Lord_Magmar posted:You keep putting words in my mouth and it is very rude, and when you do so is a personal attack against me because you are trying to devalue my position in this argument. I have not said that 'we' need lies in order to 'stay human', I have said that we as humans believe in things, and in doing so we define what we think is human. The existence of Santa Clause and Jesus are both beliefs that people hold, they are neither better nor worse they are different. It is the belief that matters, so long as that belief leads to humans being good people to one another what does it matter where that belief comes from. Well hold on, I say hold on now; you're hoppin' around like a dang nematode. You keep switching back and forth between saying lies make you human and saying lies make you a good person, and have now introduced the contradictory claim that lies simply 'create action' in a neutral/amoral sense. It's a struggle to parse all this, but you've apparently written that humans are defined by their ability to believe lies, because such belief creates (human) action, and this 'creation of action' is inherently good even if it leads to atrocity. So in the example of the child: you lie to the child, telling him that Batman doesn't kill people. This 'humanizes' the child (because he now believes a lie, which is the precondition to 'being human') and also set his parameters of what a human is (a human is defined as someone who never kills people ever). Thus, belief in the lie that humans don't ever kill will cause the child to create the human action of avoiding killing. There is no difference between truth and lies, so long as they result in a humanization. And I've already pointed this out as being dumb. Elfgames posted:Batman doesn't eat digest or poop naturally either Batman is a person, and therefore he certainly poops. Everybody poops. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 08:51 on Aug 22, 2016 |
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Aug 22, 2016 08:29
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Oh hey, a comic book movie megathread, I wonder if they are talking abo-
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Aug 22, 2016 08:50
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You keep saying lies like it's the only thing people believe in. Their are good lies and bad lies but belief in of itself is important for humanity. You can believe in things that are true, and many people do. That doesn't change that belief is what is happening and it is in human nature to believe. Telling a child that batman doesn't kill doesn't humanise them, they're already human, it gives them morals and values. Such as killing is wrong on a moral level, because to be a hero is to not kill. I also didn't say belief and the actions belief cause are inherently good, you've said I've said that. I've just said it's inherently human. Belief can lead to both good and bad actions, but belief in of itself is not a bad thing. What people do in response can be. I don't think you're actually arguing with me to be honest, you seem to have made a decision that I'm the bad guy and my argument is inherently flawed and then looking for interpretations of my argument that prove this claim. As such I think I'm going to stop discussing this with you because it's just going to give me a headache eventually.
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Aug 22, 2016 08:51
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Lord_Magmar posted:I don't think you're actually arguing with me to be honest, you seem to have made a decision that I'm the bad guy and my argument is inherently flawed and then looking for interpretations of my argument that prove this claim.
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Aug 22, 2016 09:01
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I tried to figure out exactly where this conversation went wrong and I'm baffled. Also, I feel that some people lose sight of this fact: Batman is the villain of Batman v Superman for like, 80% of the movie. His actions before he gets "saved" are the actions of someone who is not right, and even after that, he's still a reformed villain, essentially.
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Aug 22, 2016 09:05
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Frionnel posted:Oh hey, a comic book movie megathread, I wonder if they are talking abo- Hell yeah
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Aug 22, 2016 09:16
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:
Bruce wayne is a person, batman is a symbol and a god maybe he doesn't poop.
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Aug 22, 2016 09:35
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Lord_Magmar posted:You keep saying lies like it's the only thing people believe in. Their are good lies and bad lies but belief in of itself is important for humanity. You can believe in things that are true, and many people do. That doesn't change that belief is what is happening and it is in human nature to believe. Okay, so: you are saying that humans are naturally credulous, but not naturally good. Therefore it is expedient to use 'good lies' to cover up the 'bad truths' that cause bad actions. Your justification for lying (more specifically: treating lies as interchangeable with truth, aka 'bullshitting') is that beliefs, morals, and values (and so-on) are effectively meaningless. Only actions are good or bad. Under this logic, you can manipulate people's beliefs in any way you like, so long as your manipulation produces good actions. We can give children false morals to render them docile. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 09:38 on Aug 22, 2016 |
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Aug 22, 2016 09:36
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Like people are taking the most hostile reading of that Death quote possible, when in fact it's really just expressing basic existentialist concepts very, very clumsily. "Human beings create meaning in an absurd universe." For the record, this is correct. It's poor form to read a text from only a selected fragment.
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Aug 22, 2016 10:42
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:We can give children false morals to render them docile. ....."can"? Have you never been around a child before?
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Aug 22, 2016 10:50
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Unlike BvS, I do think Suicide Squad is a movie where a director's cut could, if not fix it completely, at least significantly improve it.
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Aug 22, 2016 12:22
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hi does doctor strange look any better than it already did, which was great, thanks
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Aug 22, 2016 13:05
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oddium posted:hi does doctor strange look any better than it already did, which was great, thanks There's nothing new since the last trailer at SDCC. There's supposed to be a 3rd full-length trailer next month.
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Aug 22, 2016 13:47
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Batman is not an anti-hero. Punisher is an anti-hero. Batman is typically portrayed as being the moral equal of Superman and Wonder Woman. He displays compassion frequently, just not outwardly. For instance he might stop someone's crime as Batman and hire him as Bruce Wayne, if he feels like the criminal can be redeemed.
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Aug 22, 2016 14:12
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:Batman is not an anti-hero. Punisher is an anti-hero. So anti-heroes condone the act of killing by their very existence?
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Aug 22, 2016 14:13
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There's no Goldblum, but there seem to be some little headline teases in this photo from thor 3. https://twitter.com/chrishemsworth/status/767525681018310656/photo/1 The villain may or may not be Ronald McDonald.
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Aug 22, 2016 14:23
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Is Falcon an anti-hero? He murders those 3-4 henchmen pretty quickly at the beginning of Civil War.
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Aug 22, 2016 14:36
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Electromax posted:There's no Goldblum, but there seem to be some little headline teases in this photo from thor 3. "Time Square Murder"??? Oh god they're going to battle Time Cube.  ALso this cosplayer must be fuckin' tripping out that his photo is appearing in an actual MCU film:  Edit: and thinking about Hogfather last night, it only just occurred to me how much the central plot of the personification of death (associated with the harvest festival/Samhain/life -> death) taking over the duties of the personification of the winter solstice festival (Yule/rebirth of the Sun) completely rips of The Nightmare Before Christmas which came out three years earlier. Snowglobe of Doom fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Aug 22, 2016 |
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Aug 22, 2016 15:12
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Note how Magmar & Pratchet's message effortlessly coincides with a straightforward endorsement of paganism. We'll cynically teach people to worship false gods so we can maintain the lie that our society is just. Magmar stands for deceit. That is his programme. Truth is a threat to his ideology. ...Someone who a lot of people would call a false good who has been used since his death to maintain the lot that society is just? I'm a little lost.
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Aug 22, 2016 16:08
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