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Colgate posted:So what MMO actually has a good newbie experience? Now I'm curious. I actually want to say Guild Wars 2. It starts off really strong and gives you a bunch of abilities really quickly. Shame about the story though Actually even the story starts off kinda strong
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Jul 27, 2017 23:21
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Charles Get-Out posted:I don't play WoW so I don't know for sure, but what did WoW do with the xpac stories from the ones before Cataclysm? Mordiceius posted:I think the prime example was: Imagine you create a Worgen Death Knight. You start a Cataclysm (4.0) race in a Wrath of the Lich King (3.0) class starter zone, then you go back to Cataclysm (4.0) zones for five levels before moving on to Burning Crusade (2.0) zones then back to Wrath of the Lich King (3.0) zones and finally back to Cataclysm (4.0) zone and beyond. And the story is just as loving nonsense. With WoW, up until the post-Cataclysm era, each expansion was very disconnected from all of the others. There was never any branching story.
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Jul 27, 2017 23:25
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considering wow boosts you to the most relevant, newest content that everyone is playing for "free", probably wow seriously just make "current expansion, -1" skip get bundled with each new expansion. done. include some story summary or like a 10 minute scenario/introduction to quickly give you the relevant points of 2.0's plotline (garleans came, got trashed, we got backstabbed, now we go to ishgard) and donezo.
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Jul 27, 2017 23:27
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Rhymenoserous posted:This. It's not a zero sum game, it's possible to stick with a game despite some aspects of it being horrible. WoW's story is so loving stupid that trying to explain it to someone else makes me degenerate into cursing. Still played it for almost 10 years. But that's the point isn't it? Even if you don't enjoy the story there's got to be something in that 2.0-2.55 experience that makes it worthwhile for most. I'm not trying to say there's just one thing (the story) that carries it, I'm saying there was something that, you know, helped boost the game from the failure state of 1.0 to what it was in 2.0. That's what I meant by "something charming". I'm not exactly raving about all elements of the story either, just that there was always something back when I played the game in 2.0 (yes, believe it or not I, like many, played the game before Heavensward or even Leviathan were in the game, and had fun). That's why I wasn't suffering through anything. I was having fun.
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Jul 27, 2017 23:30
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Minrad posted:considering wow boosts you to the most relevant, newest content that everyone is playing for "free", probably wow Yeah I'll agree with this. It's easier to get into WoW than any other MMO because they give you a free boost to "Latest expansion" entry point.
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Jul 27, 2017 23:30
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Josuke Higashikata posted:just dedicate some resources to deleting 90% of the post 2.0 to 3.0 MSQ and add in some quests that explain it Add in goofy fast forward cutscenes that skip over the less interesting bits at incredibly high speeds. Play it off as the WoL just kind of going into a haze and running on auto.
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Jul 27, 2017 23:33
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Magil Zeal posted:But that's the point isn't it? Even if you don't enjoy the story there's got to be something in that 2.0-2.55 experience that makes it worthwhile for most. I'm not trying to say there's just one thing (the story) that carries it, I'm saying there was something that, you know, helped boost the game from the failure state of 1.0 to what it was in 2.0. That's what I meant by "something charming". I'm not exactly raving about all elements of the story either, just that there was always something back when I played the game in 2.0 (yes, believe it or not I, like many, played the game before Heavensward or even Leviathan were in the game, and had fun). 2.0 sucks now for the same reason vanilla wow sucks now: the game got better over time it was good enough then because there wasn't anything better. now it's gate keepering the better content.
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Jul 27, 2017 23:39
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Jinh posted:I actually want to say Guild Wars 2. It starts off really strong and gives you a bunch of abilities really quickly. Shame about the story though GW2 is a slow decline into a sheer cliff face drop. Though the quality has been slowly rising lately. The story is still dumb, but they at least stopped taking themselves remotely as seriously as they did before. The new fractals (basically dungeons) have all been astoundingly good.
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Jul 27, 2017 23:40
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A difference between FFXIV and WoW (at least back when I played, which I quit in 2011) is that in WoW, the only relevant things in the game are the current expansion's dungeons/raids. There isn't really anything to do outside of that. FFXIV is constantly adding a bunch of side features that aren't tied to the current dungeon/raids (PotD, Gold Saucer, Housing, Sightseeing Log, Treasure Hunting) whereas WoW really never had anything outside of crafting/gathering/dungeons. I guess they have pokemon now though? I'm a big proponent of the skip potions, but I can totally understand new players getting super loving overwhelmed and I don't know what the solution to that is.
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Jul 27, 2017 23:40
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Magil Zeal posted:there's got to be something in that 2.0-2.55 experience that makes it worthwhile for most. Getting past it. I've been on a few servers and in a FC or two and any time I talk about AAR post 50 content and rubbing oil on chocobos I'm guaranteed to see at least 5 people grousing about how arbitrarily grindy it was and how everyone was glad when it was finally over. Minrad posted:2.0 sucks now for the same reason vanilla wow sucks now: the game got better over time This basically.
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Jul 27, 2017 23:41
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Cipher Pol 9 posted:Yeah Machinist and Dark Knight are two jobs I leveled almost exclusively for style and sick animations and then basically never played again. Machinist I liked mostly but hated the reliance on Wildfire, and reading about the new Heat mechanics does not have me excited to level it again. http://i.imgur.com/QFknw1u.gifv http://i.imgur.com/GHTz2M1.gifv
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Jul 27, 2017 23:41
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Is that second animation the player shoving a ball of energy into their own gut?
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Jul 27, 2017 23:44
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Mordiceius posted:I'm a big proponent of the skip potions, but I can totally understand new players getting super loving overwhelmed and I don't know what the solution to that is. Delete entire steps out of quests, and delete entire quests and increase exp to make up for it. A good example would be the "Make your own party feast before you die to a primal" quest chain that lasted farrrrrr too loving long. Cut it down to three items, make it all gather-able at the same time, and make it a single quest. Any quests where you hand out meats to guards or rub oil on things that are completely irrelevant to the story just cut the gently caress out. Alternatively give people the option to just skip AAR entirely once they hit level 50. To give an idea of why AAR is so loving stupid: Quests to get from 1-50: 184 Post 50 Quests to get to level 51 content: 101 Just loving lol at anyone who defends THAT. Rhymenoserous fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 23:44
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BetterToRuleInHell posted:Is that second animation the player shoving a ball of energy into their own gut? Yes
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Jul 27, 2017 23:44
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poo poo, I gave up on DRK way too early, then.
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Jul 27, 2017 23:49
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Minrad posted:2.0 sucks now for the same reason vanilla wow sucks now: the game got better over time I'll agree that the later content is better but I can't agree that that suddenly makes the old content suck.
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Jul 27, 2017 23:51
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something more subtle that makes the new player experience (or even the alt character experience) better in WoW is that you start kicking rear end much earlier. I've talked about how WoW makes you feel like a [class + spec] a hell of a lot faster than FFXIV, and part of how it does this is giving you strong buttons to push by level 10, and even better ones by 20. Shamans get Lava Lash, Hunters get Kill Command, etc. This isn't limited to DPS classes either, a Protection Warrior's Shield Slam is going to do a shitload of damage early on and this lets you chunk enemies for a huge amount of HP the second you engage them. Damage skills are sort of analogous to healing spells in FFXIV, where they do a huge amount of raw throughput at the level you get them and it's only when you get to challenging content does that throughput get tested. The only jobs I can think of that let you open up with so much damage pre-45~55 are synced down Red Mages and maaaybe thaumaturges. WoW lets you do this because it doesn't have a combo system or like FFXIV does. Classes still have gauges and mechanics but these sorts of skills are policed by cooldowns and proper rotations come from those, like a FFXIV Bard I guess. Since so few skills used in your rotation have cooldowns in FFXIV those skills need lower potency to not be stupid. You can drop a Stormstrike on an enemy in WoW and start a fight with a huge advantage but you won't be doing that against until the next mob (assuming solo content or even some dungeon trash) because it has a ~10s cooldown. You have other buttons to press that are good, but not quite as good, at least for hitting really hard, really fast. Either way, this goes a long way toward making you feel powerful early on; You don't have to wait for 3 (very slow) GCDs to actually use your high potency attack, you can just do it whenever.
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Jul 27, 2017 23:58
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lots of people suffer through the early game to get to the endgame. that does not magically make the early game better. i wanted to get through to the raiding. the fact i was actively forced to play the story to do the content i wanted to do does not mean the story was fun to me. i have to pay my taxes. the fact i am obligated to do so does not mean I enjoy doing so.
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Jul 28, 2017 00:01
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Rhymenoserous posted:Quests to get from 1-50: 184 Now that it's a giant lump sum you can easily cut it in half to get to all of the really good stuff there (the lead up to HW.)
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Jul 28, 2017 00:01
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So it's more of a classes being able to do things problem? That I agree with. But it's also a bigger problem with some classes more than others. I'm working on WHM right now, and I have to wonder why Regen is something obtained at level 35, and that there's no lower level version of Holy. Meanwhile, spells like Repose and Fluid Aura don't get that much use early on. I do like ARC and PGL basically had at least something resembling a basic rotation early on. But from what I'm reading, there are some classes that are basically 2 buttons for 30 levels?
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Jul 28, 2017 00:06
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Colgate posted:So what MMO actually has a good newbie experience? Now I'm curious. TOR's is pretty good. Your starting world is driven primarily by your class story instead of some class-agnostic planetary story, and these days you barely need to sidequest at all. AoE abilities are introduced early on, you get your first companion before or as you clear the first planet who you can set to tank, healer, or dps, and all the story-important dungeons you can do solo with an invincible NPC buddy.
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Jul 28, 2017 00:06
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A 50S RAYGUN posted:i have to pay my taxes. the fact i am obligated to do so does not mean I enjoy doing so. This is a terrible analogy. Not paying your taxes has more serious consequences than not playing a video game. I'm not doubting there are some people who "suffered" through the old content just to get to the endgame, but I think they're probably a fairly small minority. I am, again, going by how successful ARR 2.0 was, even if a very small percentage of the population ever even saw the Binding Coils back then. The "suffering" as it is so called is all there was. There was nothing beyond it to "suffer" for. EponymousMrYar posted:2.0-2.55 is where the fat definitely needs trimmed. It was fine when it was first introduced because it was designed in part to tide people over for awhile until the next patch hit so the dozen or so-odd quests per several month cycle was no big deal. And this I can agree with on some level, the 2.0 story/dungeons/content in general is fine but the 2.x storyline is a bit padded and can probably be trimmed. (And I agree that class abilities need a pass but I think I've said that a few times already.)
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Jul 28, 2017 00:07
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Colgate posted:lower level version of Holy. I'm salivating at the thought of Dia-spamming my way through low level content
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Jul 28, 2017 00:07
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Giving classes watered down versions of high level abilities early on that upgrade via traits would be really cool.
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Jul 28, 2017 00:14
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Colgate posted:So it's more of a classes being able to do things problem? That I agree with. But it's also a bigger problem with some classes more than others. I'm working on WHM right now, and I have to wonder why Regen is something obtained at level 35, and that there's no lower level version of Holy. Meanwhile, spells like Repose and Fluid Aura don't get that much use early on. Actually this is a really good point. We're having low level abilities replaced by higher tier ones now, it would be nice to get some new low level stuff to get replaced, or nerf skills, introduce em earlier, and add traits at the level they are now to put them back to normal damage.
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Jul 28, 2017 00:16
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cheetah7071 posted:I'm salivating at the thought of Dia-spamming my way through low level content SURE WOULD BE NICE IF AST COULD GET SOME KIND OF AOE OPTION BEFORE LEVEL 52, INSTEAD WE GOT "UNDRAW" CARDS.
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Jul 28, 2017 00:17
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I felt like I enjoyed a lot of the MSQ, but there are definitely areas where it could be improved. There's a staggering amount of "Go here and talk to X" then deliver this to person "Y". There's also The Waking Sands, located in Vesper Bay (place without a crystal) with its two loading screens every time you have to talk to Minfilia (A LOT). I can honestly say my favorite parts were the 1-18 stuff before you were dumped into the Scions (For Gridania at least, I never saw the Limsa and Ul'dah versions), and the whole Coerthas Central Highlands part and Garuda. A lot of the middle seems pretty filler, and the near-end leading into and including the two Garlean 8-man dungeons has its own problems.
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Jul 28, 2017 00:17
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Colgate posted:But from what I'm reading, there are some classes that are basically 2 buttons for 30 levels? I don't actually have any low level jobs anymore so I had to look into this. Tanks: - Paladin doesn't get its third combo hit until level 26. You get Shield Swipe, an off-GCD attack on a 15s cooldown that triggers when you block at level 30. You don't get another ability that does damage until level 45, a 30s cooldown off-GCD attack. - Warrior gets its third combo hit at 30, but this is actually a bit of an oversimplification because you're still alternating between two 2-hit combos prior to that. You also have Overpower for AoE damage. Not awful but not fantastic. Melee DPS: - I have no clue how Monk works since I haven't touched it since like 2.3 so I'm not going to bother with this. A cursory glance implies they're decent in this regard though. - Dragoon mirrors Paladin early on, getting their third combo hit at 26 and then an off-GCD attack at 30. Its second combo tree starts at 38 and is three hits at 50. - Ninja also mirrors this, which really drives home the "all the classes are the loving same for a long time" point, also getting its 3rd hit at 26 and an off-GCD at 30. It does have Assassinate at 12 and Mug at 15 for other off-GCD skills at least. Casters: - Both of these are pretty decent in terms of having relatively decent low level tools, probably because they aren't locked behind combos. Still nothing super exciting until Fire III (34) for Black Mage and Fester (35) for Summoner. Ranged DPS: - See casters. Healers: - Lol. Since I've had sort of an anti-negative FFXIV gameplay tone the past few posts I want to drive home that I think FFXIV's late game rotations are some of the best in the business with a few glaring contrary examples. Early game is poo poo though, and has actually been made worse with Stormblood (the expansion with the INSANE marketing push for newbies) barring the fact that you can now skip past it with real life dollars. Countblanc fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Jul 28, 2017 |
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Jul 28, 2017 00:27
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Huh, I don't remember. Which ability is the ball-of-energy-into-the-gut one?
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Jul 28, 2017 00:30
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Quick dishonest healer question. When casting Stone/Aero, is it worth making a macro so it casts on target of target (or focus target if that's possible)? I don't gently caress up as much now that cleric stance is gone, but I still accidently cast big heals on myself instead of the tank when I push for that extra stone cast and use a CD to heal the tank from low. I have a RDM so I'm never actually a WHM outside of group content and making solo annoying isn't a problem.
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Jul 28, 2017 00:41
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ImpAtom posted:Huh, I don't remember. Which ability is the ball-of-energy-into-the-gut one? Delirium
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Jul 28, 2017 00:41
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Colgate posted:So what MMO actually has a good newbie experience? Now I'm curious. ESO is very enjoyable. For combat it uses a small slottable action bar and you get some cool abilities fast, and they implemented global level scaling sometime last year and you're free to go wherever. Questing is the best I've seen in an mmo.
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Jul 28, 2017 00:41
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Saint Freak posted:Delirium Ooh, that explains it. I never used that outside of combat and probably never even watched the animation. I am hella PEEVED posted:Quick dishonest healer question. When casting Stone/Aero, is it worth making a macro so it casts on target of target (or focus target if that's possible)? I don't gently caress up as much now that cleric stance is gone, but I still accidently cast big heals on myself instead of the tank when I push for that extra stone cast and use a CD to heal the tank from low. Generally not. Macros are weird about how they work for stuff you use over and over again. What I do is have a button combo set to instantly shift my target over to the target of my target and I use that if I need to swap quickly.
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Jul 28, 2017 00:47
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ImpAtom posted:Ooh, that explains it. I never used that outside of combat and probably never even watched the animation. Well the thing is the Delirium you're thinking of is probably pre Stormblood Delirium which was an attack. Post SB Delirium is a cooldown/resource consumer that restores mana and extends the duration of Blood Price/Blood Weapon, thus the animation.
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Jul 28, 2017 00:51
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Having played SCH and SMN (and BRD!), something that lets me keep track of DoTs on multiple enemies would REALLY be appreciated.
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Jul 28, 2017 00:52
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Sorry, that's a slippery slope to getting votekicked out of Sastasha because you don't have WeakAuras installed. Please don't look forward to it.
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Jul 28, 2017 00:59
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i've learned to just sort of have a reasonable guess based on tab order and knowing dot durations not sure perfection really matters a whit in 99% of multidotting cases so it's good enough
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Jul 28, 2017 01:05
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Just do yourself a solid and bind keys to cycle through enmity list. Easy dot tracking.
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Jul 28, 2017 01:13
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Captain Oblivious posted:Well the thing is the Delirium you're thinking of is probably pre Stormblood Delirium which was an attack. Oh no, I know the one you mean. I just have only ever used it in the middle of a fight and probably cancelled the animation right into something else so I'd never seen it actually play out.
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Jul 28, 2017 01:16
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Colgate posted:Having played SCH and SMN (and BRD!), something that lets me keep track of DoTs on multiple enemies would REALLY be appreciated. I don't know why my Bites (and Straight Shot buff, for that matter) aren't part of my job meter. I thought the whole idea of the gauges was to reduce how often I'd be staring at my buffs / target's debuffs? At least Straight Shot is easy to mentally keep track of since it's +/- 6 GCDs before it needs to be refreshed, and the Bites are 30 seconds long so there's a bunch of flex room to remember to check them.
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