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Psion posted:That's very true. Unfortunately, Vox pointing out that "It's a stealth only heist. If an alarm goes off, you hosed up." actually made me re-think my stance on the timer a bit, but I didnt want to poo poo up the thread with a another post about my opinion. I still think it is harsh and unfun that the heist has such a short timer if you gently caress up and more time or a quicker way out would be nice, but I'm not trying to get into an argument about it. My other post about having an alternate escape route was based on the thought "we are playing as professional heisters". A professional would plan on having a backup way out, if they wanted one. On a heist like Murky Station, where -as Vox said, nobody is supposed to know that you are there- you need to get out NOW if you get discovered. Therefore you would think that a professional would think ahead and plan on having more than one way out. Thats it. I also remembered that they give you a 15% Stealth bonus for doing Murky Station completely in stealth, which is pretty substantial and helps make it more worthwhile . tl;dr I'm sorry I posted a bad opinion but you dont have to be a passive-aggressive dick about it.
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Jan 17, 2017 19:45
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Professionals would also case a joint way before robbing, not just right after they show up to rob the place. You wouldn't have people bitching about there being cameras at a place JUST AS THEY GET THERE because they would know and plan for it beforehand. You can call it poor design or whatever; I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you it's just that that sort of poo poo is all over this game.
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Jan 17, 2017 19:51
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UnknownMercenary posted:Professionals would also case a joint way before robbing, not just right after they show up to rob the place. You wouldn't have people bitching about there being cameras at a place JUST AS THEY GET THERE because they would know and plan for it beforehand. Psion posted:that's a good point, though, merc, about preplanning torching any real difficulty in Shadow Raid. It's still probably the best designed stealth heist in the game but it's super easy-mode when you can guarantee which loot drops you get even if you aren't ECM-rushing your way through Infamy 2.0. AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Shadow Raid is retarded because its tedious unless you ECM rush it, and its payout is never worth the time invested unless you ECM rush it - they need to remove the easy dump point that makes ECM rushing so viable so they can increase the heist's payout. Psion posted:I also think the four pager limit is the biggest obstacle to 'saving' a bungled stealth situation. I'm not saying it's all bad, but it really does make stealth ... kind of...brittle? It either works or it doesn't. The opportunity cost to dropping a guard on an all-pagers map is pretty high if you have to drop them and then answer the pager and then bag and move them, which is fine, but it means any situations which are even slightly out of control are going to spiral into totally out of control before you can even finish the pager call and then you're loud and you can do literally nothing but watch while holding F. Finding a way to not have a hard limit but still make pager, uh, management(?) a thing would be neat. Off the top of my head, something like having to hold onto the pagers and answer them when they get check-in calls and/or to check in at certain times could maybe be interesting, though probably would end up just being a pain in the rear end? AAAAA! Real Muenster fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Jan 17, 2017 |
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Jan 17, 2017 20:01
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Finding a way to not have a hard limit but still make pager, uh, management(?) a thing would be neat. Off the top of my head, something like having to hold onto the pagers and answer them when they get check-in calls and/or to check in at certain times could maybe be interesting, though probably would end up just being a pain in the rear end? What you are describing sounds like trying to manage a map with more civilians than cable ties. I'm sure you know how most players solve that problem.
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Jan 17, 2017 20:05
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Concordat posted:What you are describing sounds like trying to manage a map with more civilians than cable ties. I'm sure you know how most players solve that problem.
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Jan 17, 2017 20:06
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:tl;dr I'm sorry I posted a bad opinion but you dont have to be a passive-aggressive dick about it. just lol if trying to have a convincing but polite argument is being a passive-aggressive dick Murky Station has a rude escape timer but 1) Twitch is your getaway driver and he's the scarediest scaredy cat 2) Murky Station is insanely easy once you realize there are safe spots loving everywhere. The challenge to stealth is that you have to not gently caress up, and to not gently caress up you have to be patient (and have map knowledge, but mostly be patient). Is it good design to make a single gently caress up require a map restart? No. Is there any other way to make the heist challenging other than to not allow a single catastrophic gently caress up? Not really. If you don't like how Shadow Raid is easily ECM rushed then don't ECM rush it. Or at least try not to and then ECM rush anyway when someone gets spotted in the yard and alerts five guards
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Jan 17, 2017 22:26
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ClonedPickle posted:just lol if trying to have a convincing but polite argument is being a passive-aggressive dick  I'm not going to get into semantics about his post. He's not wrong but I think his approach was not polite.Regarding Murky Station: You are 100% correct. It is easy once you understand that you have to be patient and there are tons of 100% safespots, and knowing where they are on the map is huge. The only problem I have with it is that if you gently caress up, you might as well immediately hit the restart button, because if the alarm goes off you are likely not going to get to the escape zone in time (assuming it is available), because the timer is so short. It stands out to me for two reasons: 1.) It is the only heist with such a short timer and 2.) because I generally do the heist solo so if I make one mistake that means 20ish minutes of work is down the toilet. Its easy to have a catastrophic fuckup like that because of the long sightlines for guards to see downed guards or loot bags and because of the drone-cameras seeing alerted or dead guards or loot bags. Saying that brings me back around around to "If I am a professional hesiter doing a heist where "They are not supposed to know that we were there" then I would have a backup plan for escaping quickly so they dont know who I am or getting the important loot out discreetly. The argument against that make the heist too easy is valid but it doesnt change my opinion. edit: Regarding Shadow Raid: I do it without ECM rushing it because its another one I do solo if no one else is around or I want to do something different and challenging. All I am saying is that I wish its payout was better so it was more worth the time. AAAAA! Real Muenster fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Jan 17, 2017 |
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Jan 17, 2017 22:50
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UnknownMercenary posted:Professionals would also case a joint way before robbing, not just right after they show up to rob the place. You wouldn't have people bitching about there being cameras at a place JUST AS THEY GET THERE because they would know and plan for it beforehand. i've constantly found it confusing that even as far back as jesse james we have written evidence of gangs casing a place weeks in advance and taking the slightest variable out of place as excuses to scrub a heist. there was one journal entry in the kansas city museum of natural history that implies that james scrubbed a heist because a single guard was seemingly absent that day and he didn't want to risk him just being out back getting drunk and shouting an alarm before the gang was ready to bolt. (apparently they later found out the guard was home with a really bad flu) in many of the payday gang's missions they don't even know what their escape vehicle is before they show up to do the job (looking at YOU train heist).
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Jan 17, 2017 23:25
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Time for my first official Payday 2 Windmill update! I have now reached ~25,000/658,896 kills! Almost close to 4% of the way there! My latest killgrinding test run scored 720 kills in about 22 minutes, so things are almost looking feasible at this point. And by feasible, I mean it will take me ~300 hours. Coolguye posted:in many of the payday gang's missions they don't even know what their escape vehicle is before they show up to do the job (looking at YOU train heist). Bain's a busy guy with crimenet- he clearly works quantity, not quality. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Jan 18, 2017 |
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Jan 18, 2017 01:33
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The Payday Gang basically gets by entirely on other people's incompetence and an alarming capacity for gratuitous amounts of violence.
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Jan 18, 2017 01:58
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I wouldn't have it any other way. 
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Jan 18, 2017 02:29
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Drewjitsu posted:I wouldn't have it any other way. Yesterday I casually and intentionally sprayed a pair of surrendered cops in the back with my SMG while passing by to the escape, so yeah same.
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Jan 18, 2017 03:46
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Joke's on us when the next heist is literally the Paycheck gang as Crime's answer to Uber. One part Hotline, one part reckless endangering of everyone around you for possible percentage of what you steal, all part mass violence!
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Jan 18, 2017 05:57
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RandallODim posted:The Payday Gang basically gets by entirely on other people's incompetence and an alarming capacity for gratuitous amounts of violence. "Geez the whole shift must be coming down with a nasty throat bug they all sound like scottish poo poo"
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Jan 18, 2017 06:01
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FAUXTON posted:"Geez the whole shift must be coming down with a nasty throat bug they all sound like scottish poo poo" "Okay, who thought it was funny to put me on a Japanese center's shift?"
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Jan 18, 2017 06:21
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"Oh that's just chuck, he's a narcoleptic furry but hey we don't let that get in the way of employment at gensec"
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Jan 18, 2017 06:43
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Scarface mansion's outdoor guards are definitely a step in the right direction. I hope future stealthable heists have that element. Some other ideas for stealth: Reward crews with variable skill levels by giving players who suck at stealth or are desyncing badly something useful to do. Murky Station had that part of the map where a crew member could safely spot guards, which is nice. I often stick to cameras or whatever when I'm not hosting because of desync issues. Something to control guard movements - more lures like the hand driers in art gallery or maybe some kind of controllable gate to reroute guards? That might be impossible to code though. More puzzle/problem solving stuff - maybe not big oil engine puzzle hard but more like Diamond tiles. Perhaps puzzle is possible to solve solo but additional players can do a task elsewhere to reduce number of possible solutions?
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Jan 18, 2017 09:12
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UnknownMercenary posted:Payday 2 feels weird in that it's extremely hard to contain any stealth situation that goes bad. Which is why forced stealth is a stupid idea. I see the logic in having stealth options in the game even though I don't personally enjoy stealthing, but forced stealth is nonsensical. I would like there to be a loud option for every heist. If I can shoot hundreds of cops on most of the maps I should have the option to shoot hundreds of cops on all of them.
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Jan 18, 2017 13:05
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If they really wanted stealth to be something that is done more often, two of the biggest obstacles that they need to get over are: A) Failing stealth just puts you at square one loud no matter what or force-ends the mission. B) Detection latency. I think we all know why A is a problem. The way most players would see it is if one little mess-up is going to put them at loud square one, they're either going to restart the mission or just do it loud from the start. However, if you give more rewards for incrementally doing parts of the mission in stealth, then that can give incentive to do more and more and to their credit quite a few heists do that, but I'd like to see more of it. There can also be more incentive rewards like making loot stashed in stealth worth more or have more forced escapes for choosing loud so it's at least no longer the path of least resistance by the amount it currently is. Detection latency is definitely difficult, and probably my #1 reason for not doing much stealth. I can't imagine the kind of tech that would go into improving that, but if we're talking about feedback for a sequel, it may be able to be mitigated through other factors like having a limited-use throwable that can distract guards or just coming up with another system altogether. They also made this more manageable by having many more safe spaces positioned in a way that you could keep some kind of flow in levels like Murky Station.
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Jan 18, 2017 13:28
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Plan Z posted:There can also be more incentive rewards like making loot stashed in stealth worth more or have more forced escapes for choosing loud so it's at least no longer the path of least resistance by the amount it currently is. Stealth bonus was meant to serve that function. I'm opposed to any more of that nonsense because they should concentrate on making stealth itself more viable, not make stealth a more attractive option by penalizing people who like to play heists loud.
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Jan 18, 2017 15:25
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A big root problem here is that the people who don't like stealth find it a huge imposition that stealth exists in the game- especially that stealth only heists exist. They've built their identity around it.clockworkjoe posted:Reward crews with variable skill levels by giving players who suck at stealth or are desyncing badly something useful to do. Murky Station had that part of the map where a crew member could safely spot guards, which is nice. I often stick to cameras or whatever when I'm not hosting because of desync issues. clockworkjoe posted:Something to control guard movements - more lures like the hand driers in art gallery or maybe some kind of controllable gate to reroute guards? That might be impossible to code though. clockworkjoe posted:More puzzle/problem solving stuff - maybe not big oil engine puzzle hard but more like Diamond tiles. Perhaps puzzle is possible to solve solo but additional players can do a task elsewhere to reduce number of possible solutions? Plan Z posted:A) Failing stealth just puts you at square one loud no matter what or force-ends the mission.
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Jan 18, 2017 16:04
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Do other stealth focused games have more options to reset a failure or easier consequences? I vaguely recall breaking stealth in Styx and Dishonored and being able to salvage a bad time by running away and having guards change from patrols to hunting for a while. Should there be an interim state that instead calls a patrol or more attentive guards before summoning cops from the Shadow Realm?
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Jan 18, 2017 17:32
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Sternieliscious posted:Do other stealth focused games have more options to reset a failure or easier consequences? I vaguely recall breaking stealth in Styx and Dishonored and being able to salvage a bad time by running away and having guards change from patrols to hunting for a while. Should there be an interim state that instead calls a patrol or more attentive guards before summoning cops from the Shadow Realm? Some heists have check-in guards. Interim or patrol states aren't feasible in Payday 2. It's a different kind of stealth game. Part of this is budgetary, but a lot of it is also the design requirements entailed by being a co-op FPS.
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Jan 18, 2017 18:23
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Sternieliscious posted:Do other stealth focused games have more options to reset a failure or easier consequences? I vaguely recall breaking stealth in Styx and Dishonored and being able to salvage a bad time by running away and having guards change from patrols to hunting for a while. Should there be an interim state that instead calls a patrol or more attentive guards before summoning cops from the Shadow Realm? both of those games also have strictly limited numbers of enemies that they can ostensibly summon, are one player, and do not have horde mechanics as part of the primary selling point of the game. this mechanic is also panned as one of the worst tropes in stealth games and was actually one of the reasons why people liked MGS5 so much; people just doing a cursory search of the area and going "WELP HE'S NOT HERE NOW" is incredibly inorganic. if you are a guard somewhere and you see something honestly threatening or suspicious you are going to: 1) radio it in 2) request backup 3) get backup 4) turn the place inside out 5) not relax again until your shift is over and you're home eating dinner this is exactly what MGS5 does and while MGS5's entire THING is not appropriate for something like PD2 i don't think trading in the janky mess of mechanics currently in PD2 should be traded out for an equally janky mess of mechanics that other games have arbitrarily subscribed to. a real stealth upgrade that would theoretically make everyone happy is not practically possible in PD2's current engine probably; i mean i'm sure it could happen but when the alternatives are doing more heists all around and refining the requirements for a better overall experience in PD3 any reasonable business planner would choose the latter.
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Jan 18, 2017 18:28
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Discendo Vox posted:A big root problem here is that the people who don't like stealth find it a huge imposition that stealth exists in the game- especially that stealth only heists exist. They've built their identity around it. Heists that reward at least partial stealth are fun - that's how I managed to get Big Oil on OD done - stealth all the way to the copter then just hold on as long as possible. It helped that we had the plane keys. I had a 3 detection dodge loud build so I helped in both segments. Would it be possible to script in things like side objectives that make the loud segment easier? Hack a cell phone tower to delay the assault wave - set c4 charges on a bridge to lower the numbers on the first assault wave - hack a computer to open up an armory/med bay so you don't need to bring your own meds or ammo. Maybe give the loud players a chance to ambush reinforcement guards (no pagers) - challenge is spotting where they're coming from, killing them and body bagging them before the next wave of reinforcements show up.
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Jan 18, 2017 22:57
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clockworkjoe posted:Would it be possible to script in things like side objectives that make the loud segment easier? Hack a cell phone tower to delay the assault wave - set c4 charges on a bridge to lower the numbers on the first assault wave - hack a computer to open up an armory/med bay so you don't need to bring your own meds or ammo. I mean, that's basically what shaped charges, the saw, and to a much lesser extent ECMs are for. Yet it seems like Overkill has actually moved farther away from including ways to use those tools. Edit: Well, that aren't the same bog standard "skip this one drill I guess" kind of stuff; I forgot there's a small handful of those over the last few heists. John Murdoch fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Jan 18, 2017 |
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Jan 18, 2017 23:08
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Generally as I spend more time around the most vocal people in the community, I'm realizing that they're the ones pushing the power creep; the response to DMR rifles being pretty darn effective in most settings is to demand buffs to LMGs, sniper rifles, etc.clockworkjoe posted:Heists that reward at least partial stealth are fun - that's how I managed to get Big Oil on OD done - stealth all the way to the copter then just hold on as long as possible. It helped that we had the plane keys. I had a 3 detection dodge loud build so I helped in both segments. Totally doable, in principle(I could see this working especially well for a multi-day heist), but very time-consuming to implement. In practice, the problem is that so much of the community is so hostile to stealth in general that it doesn't provide much of a returns for the devs. There was actually something kind of like that with reinforcement guards in Scarface Mansion, but it appears to have been removed, at least temporarily, because it was really bugged. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Jan 19, 2017 |
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Jan 19, 2017 00:30
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Well, I look forward to seeing what features the next heist will have. Isn't going to be PD1's Diamond heist?
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Jan 19, 2017 00:39
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clockworkjoe posted:Well, I look forward to seeing what features the next heist will have. Isn't going to be PD1's Diamond heist? It's definitely in the pipeline (and recent heists have probably been building out assets for it like some of the roof and dome stuff from Stealing Xmas), but it's hard to say. It appears a console update is being worked on right now. The flow of leaks has really reduced; almost everything people had found in files wound up being used in the Xmas or the Scarface heists. There's a decent chance that some of the file leaks may have even been intentional to tease people. There have also been stealth improvements to existing heists; Golden Grin in particular got a pass that redid a lot of the map's lighting and a bunch of stuff on the BFD. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 00:47 on Jan 19, 2017 |
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Jan 19, 2017 00:41
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Well, to be honest once they buffed DMRs to the level of the lowest damage sniper rifles, sniper rifles as a whole got pretty useless outside of gimmick builds that you let you do sicknasty 1 shot Bulldozer kills. I dunno where they're getting with LMGs needing buffs though. They're a massive point sink the higher you go in difficulty, but they are hardly terrible.
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Jan 19, 2017 00:42
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I'm working on a proposal for how OD stealth could be redone that I want to shop around before I post it in the official forums. It ok if I get feedback on it here first?UnknownMercenary posted:Well, to be honest once they buffed DMRs to the level of the lowest damage sniper rifles, sniper rifles as a whole got pretty useless outside of gimmick builds that you let you do sicknasty 1 shot Bulldozer kills. It's not about being balanced; it's about whatever weapon type you prefer being best. That's the underlying problem with a lot of the folks issuing ultimatums in the steam forums.
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Jan 19, 2017 00:48
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Discendo Vox posted:I'm working on a proposal for how OD stealth could be redone that I want to shop around before I post it in the official forums. It ok if I get feedback on it here first? well on OD, there's what like, 10 viable weapons? More variety would be nice.
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Jan 19, 2017 03:49
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clockworkjoe posted:well on OD, there's what like, 10 viable weapons? More variety would be nice. That's the fun part- this was literally in the context of discussing other things for OD, such as reducing and fixing the dumb enemy health and damage. People respond with "no, just buff my weapon".
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Jan 19, 2017 05:49
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They definitely need to remember that variety of gun use is what makes the game actually fun. I know its weird coming from someone married to my loco, but its like trying to make the car-4 be the end all be all gun. Boring. As. poo poo. By all means encourage people to bring actually useful skills for a stealth job like fast hands or silenced killer, but even when people know what they are doing all it is finding someone that can run it and then wait. Effectively making everyone who isn't doing something dead weight. I know the game's probably in no shape to really change for the better in this reguard, but even if its little poo poo like continuously messing with a radio hack to move guards to a certain position (either pretending to be a concerned citizen or just more lines shooting the poo poo with guards that actually do something), hitting a power switch to either lure guards or offer a temporary nerf to the guards ability to notice you by being dipshits that wear sunglasses at night or manipulating little poo poo around the heist with drones or door locks would be amazing. My guess is, the only thing that could be realistically done is radio hacking and you can even make that have a sort of 40-50% chance to work that depreciates with too many calls.
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Jan 19, 2017 05:57
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Three KSPs and a Thantos was peak Payday: The Chore. (It wasn't until they introduced the RPG that it became peak Payday:The Chorse though.)
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Jan 19, 2017 06:05
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Really I'd advise trying to make it so there are layers to stealth that allow the lowest to the highest skilled player accomplish something. Even if that just incorporating stuff from No Mercy like putting a panic effect in placing a turret on an area with civilians within a certain radius where they don't get the gently caress up even if they aren't tied until the machine is moved or broken. Or allowing the ability to set up some perch tool that can see through walls so someone can more effectively spot than any other camera. The pieces to do this already lay within the further potential that can be built from Pre-Planning. However, as it stands, there is no real stealth mechanics to Payday 2. Its mostly just a selective pacifist mode to a shooter that can very easily be broken.
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Jan 19, 2017 06:31
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Crabtree posted:Really I'd advise trying to make it so there are layers to stealth that allow the lowest to the highest skilled player accomplish something. You're describing difficulty levels.
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Jan 19, 2017 06:35
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Crabtree posted:Really I'd advise trying to make it so there are layers to stealth that allow the lowest to the highest skilled player accomplish something. Even if that just incorporating stuff from No Mercy like putting a panic effect in placing a turret on an area with civilians within a certain radius where they don't get the gently caress up even if they aren't tied until the machine is moved or broken. Or allowing the ability to set up some perch tool that can see through walls so someone can more effectively spot than any other camera. The pieces to do this already lay within the further potential that can be built from Pre-Planning. However, as it stands, there is no real stealth mechanics to Payday 2. Its mostly just a selective pacifist mode to a shooter that can very easily be broken. Do you mean something like, say, in Shadow Raid where there's always a role for a lesser skilled player (even if it's as simple as bag hauling through the sewer or out to the docks) while still letting the more skilled players handle different tasks (like sneaking in to take out camera guard)? Basically, simultaneous tasks which need to be handled that don't all ask for the same level of stealth skills. I mean hopefully they'd be more interesting than bag hauling, but you get the idea.
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Jan 19, 2017 07:45
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The best way to fix stealth would be to take the entire mechanic and slam dunk it into a loving dumpster because it sucks an absolutely incredible amount
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Jan 19, 2017 08:32
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Prokhor Zakharov posted:The best way to fix stealth would be to take the entire mechanic and slam dunk it into a loving dumpster because it sucks an absolutely incredible amount I think you're on to something here, but I think I've maybe played the game 5 times in the past year despite vaguely keeping aware of all the changes and loud isn't that great anymore since shotguns aren't what they used to be and I've given up on ever hoping the game will return to the times when you could be reasonably self-sufficient with two shotguns, ammo bags, and a techforcer-ish build. Everything that does enough damage (sup Breaker) is utter poo poo on ammo, everything that's good with ammo isn't the wrathful scythe of copdeath the Loco or Raven used to be. Everything's always a weird dodge build or focused on rifles and SMGs, the game I know and love has become strange and uncomfortable.
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Jan 19, 2017 08:58
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