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I hope this is a swift end to Gaddafi and rebuilding can begin. This sudden uprising in Tripoli itself is much swifter and stronger than Col. G's men probably expected. It's really caught them with their pants down.
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Aug 21, 2011 04:48
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They're firing MORTARS into NEIGHBORHOODS , The bodycount from that alone is going to be horrific. Also, you're right about them not expecting this, Gadaffi has no way to flee now , since the airport is being fought over, the roads outside of tripoli are controlled by the rebels and it looks like every road to the port passes through areas in revolt.
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Aug 21, 2011 05:46
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How are u posted:You're really not contributing anything at all, please stop. It's been a long six months, but didn't Chomsky come out in favor for the intervention in Libya? I remember he did, because, you know, because no matter all the collateral damage and the down-right criminal poo poo that got pulled off in Iraq and Afghanistan, at least we never turned AA guns on to protesters; fed bootleg Viagra to rape-crazy soldiers; or had snipers gun down kids en masse in the street. I really hate to continue this derail but if it gets KashiMane to shut the gently caress up about Western Imperialism by telling him that his hero holds a different opinion than him, then I'll be happy to get back to covering the fall of Tripoli. Edit: for some content, I really wondering what its like to be a government minder in the Rixos right now. What's going to happen when the rebels are at their doorstep? Will they try to hide among the journalists? Will they fight from inside the hotel and possibly take the journalists hostage? Will they all go to the roof and jump? Young Freud fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Aug 21, 2011 |
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Aug 21, 2011 05:53
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KashiMane posted:
You do realize that two mods post in this thread obsessively right?
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Aug 21, 2011 06:36
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trolling
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Does it even qualify as a derail this time? As sure as the sun rises, every couple pages a troll or genuinely clueless poli sci student will pop in to cargo cult more sensible arguments wiser people have made about totally different conflicts. Aside from that, whoa. I wasn't expecting things to light up in Tripoli anywhere near this fast. Let's hope we're near a resolution. And yes, I hope it doesn't collapse into further bloody infighting. Revolutions often don't end gracefully, even if I don't subscribe to the  IMPERIALISM! and  NEOLIBERALS! panics. But a chance of something better is more than they had under a deeply entrenched personality cult dictator.
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Aug 21, 2011 06:43
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Young Freud posted:It's been a long six months, but didn't Chomsky come out in favor for the intervention in Libya? http://www.zcommunications.org/noam-chomsky-on-libya-and-the-unfolding-crises-by-noam-chomsky From March, so fairly early on. It's rambling and wordy and full of statements I'd take issue with, but overall not a terrible article I guess. Chomsky seems to feel that the US, UK, and France have a sufficiently "horrific" history of intervention that the burden of proof that the Libya intervention is actually justified is huge. He rejects comparison to Iraq except on the most superficial levels. He talks about oil and suggests that the West wants a more pliant client state in control of Libya, acknowledging at the same time that Libya was already exporting its oil to the West but claiming that the "troublesome" status of Ghaddafi's libya means this is still a legitimate argument. In the end he concludes Noam Chomsky posted:Those concerned for peace, justice, freedom and democracy should try to find ways to lend support and assistance to Libyans who seek to shape their own future, free from constraints imposed by external powers. We can have hopes about the directions they should pursue, but their future should be in their hands. Which, if you ask me, runs counter to KashiMane's position of literally cheering about Rebel casualties. But on the subject of "Imperialism", Chomsky seems to me to be skeptical and unsupportive of the intervention for more or less the reasons KashiMane has presented, albeit in a far more literate and far less inflammatory (not to mention smug and sarcastic) way. E. I want to add that the one base Chomsky doesn't seem to cover, is the possibility of the West doing the right thing, but for the wrong reasons. Even if one cannot accept the stated motivations of Sarkozy et. al. at face value, even if one is certain that this is once again about oil and imperialism, that does not rule out the possibility that (from a totally objective perspective) the intervention is nevertheless morally right, justifiable on other grounds, or able to produce favorable results (favorable for Libyans, that is, nevermind who else benefits). On that basis, I think any observer has a responsibility to consider the situation and decide whether they agree with an intervention, nevermind who is doing the intervening. We can still hope for (and cheer for) a positive result even if we wish the people doing the intervening were possessed of only unquestionably pure motives, but recognize that no such unsullied actors exist on this particular planet and therefore we must settle for what we can get. And if that's the position you share (and I think most of us are at least willing to go that far), then harping on about how evil the West is is kind of loving irrelevant. At least it's irrelevant for the average Libyan. Why should he care if the US benefits from his newfound freedom, if the democratic state he gets to participate in is friendly to Western powers, or if the prosperity he hopes to build in the aftermath of the war is financially beneficial to international corporations? I doubt that imaginary Libyan On the Street will be wishing he could have Ghaddafi back, if only to stick it to those warmongers in Washington, Paris, and London. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 07:01 on Aug 21, 2011 |
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Aug 21, 2011 06:48
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https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=268305766515032 I don't even know what to say, but yes that is a Libyan State TV announcer holding a gun threatening to kill any attackers.
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Aug 21, 2011 07:24
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Here's a news report from an anti-NATO journalist : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtojLTdsntk
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Aug 21, 2011 07:37
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pylb posted:Here's a news report from an anti-NATO journalist : What kind of intellectually dishonest bullshit is this?
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Aug 21, 2011 07:42
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pylb posted:Here's a news report from an anti-NATO journalist : Heh, thanks, that is a hilarious blog. As for the video... less hilarious. A blog preaching to the choir is benign, broadcasting misinformation like this is malicious.
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Aug 21, 2011 07:45
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Golbez posted:Heh, thanks, that is a hilarious blog. As for the video... less hilarious. A blog preaching to the choir is benign, broadcasting misinformation like this is malicious. I like this entry from the blog : quote:In the last entry I falsely stated that Ghuriyan was secure. Ghuriyan is currently under intense NATO bombardment, and clashes with the rats continue.
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Aug 21, 2011 07:48
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From the same blog, did you know Misrata is in the hands of the Colonel's forces? Also I like the fat bald guy on the Russia Today video. He certainly hasn't missed many meals due to NATO imperialism.
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Aug 21, 2011 08:13
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I wonder what's gonna happen to those reporters still stuck in Tripoli. Gaddafi might try to use them as leverage or just outright kill them off.
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Aug 21, 2011 09:16
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Fighting continues in Tripoli according to the Rixos journalists, with reports of gunfire and explosions. Seems there's also a massive push from Zawiyah, with reports of 100's of reinforcements flooding into Zawiyah to help. Sounds like this is the final battle, and it seems the Eastern rebels will be still stuck in Brega. Hopefully boats from Misrata are landing in Zawiyah to provide extra support.
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Aug 21, 2011 09:37
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Brown Moses posted:Thanks for posting Brown Moses, I've been trying to follow all this Twitter but #Tripoli just looks like a mess of confusion and deliberate disinformation at the moment. Glad you're here to filter out the rubbish, and congrats on your recent work.
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Aug 21, 2011 09:45
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There's reports that Tajura prison in Tripoli has been emptied by the Tripoli rebels, and the rebels heading to Tripoli from Zawiyah are making good progress. That via Sky News and AJE.
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Aug 21, 2011 09:56
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Brown Moses posted:There's reports that Tajura prison in Tripoli has been emptied by the Tripoli rebels, and the rebels heading to Tripoli from Zawiyah are making good progress. That via Sky News and AJE. That's going to be the nail in the coffin right there. Bunch of pissed off political prisoners with guns. Can't wait to see how this pans out.
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Aug 21, 2011 10:02
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At least Libyan state TV are the cool heads of calm and reason in this situation http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=314127&id=137199749688243 "Hala Saakal, Gaddafi State TV presenter gets a pistol out and threatens to kill anyone that tries to storm the studio #libya"
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Aug 21, 2011 10:19
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Mad Doctor Cthulhu posted:The fact that you are the person to go to for this along with that makes your job even more impressive. You're doing a hell of a job. You should do this for a living. I can't wait for the book "The Libyan Revolutionary War: a minute by minute account as seen through Twitter by Brown Moses"  Seriously though, he should consider something...
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Aug 21, 2011 10:29
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Nenonen posted:I can't wait for the book "The Libyan Revolutionary War: a minute by minute account as seen through Twitter by Brown Moses" With a footnote by Lowtax.
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Aug 21, 2011 10:36
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Corny posted:The last thing the world needs is a poo poo show between Egypt and Israel right now. If Egypt and Israel go to war, the Palestinians can kiss whatever state they want goodbye, and a poo poo ton of Israelis and Egyptians will die for nothing. I find the likelihood of military conflict there very low, at least within a few years timeframe and if no other provocations happen. The two countries have gained too much from the decades of peace following Camp David accords to throw it all away over a little incident - what could be gained, anyway? And both sides are equipped by USA, so
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Aug 21, 2011 10:43
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Molotov Cock Tale posted:At least Libyan state TV are the cool heads of calm and reason in this situation AJE has the video linked on their live blog. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDyMZTcvKrE&feature=player_embedded
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Aug 21, 2011 10:46
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ToadStyle posted:AJE has the video linked on their live blog. And they only posted it on there 15 min. ago, which means this thread beat them to it! Keep it up guys. For content, here is a sort of chilling video of a NATO bombing of a weapons depot in the Tripoli area. It's from a couple weeks ago, but I bet a lot of the city is going to look like this soon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn8GRoPBhV0&feature=related Edgar Quintero fucked around with this message at 10:57 on Aug 21, 2011 |
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Aug 21, 2011 10:54
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Latest new from Alex Crawford says the rebels have now reached another town 17km west of Tripoli and are still advancing, Think thats about 20km covered since yesterday. Rebels to the east of Tripoli are saying Al Khums appears poorly defended, and believes his forces have pulled back to Tripoli.
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Aug 21, 2011 11:48
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Leperflesh posted:E. I want to add that the one base Chomsky doesn't seem to cover, is the possibility of the West doing the right thing, but for the wrong reasons. Even if one cannot accept the stated motivations of Sarkozy et. al. at face value, even if one is certain that this is once again about oil and imperialism, that does not rule out the possibility that (from a totally objective perspective) the intervention is nevertheless morally right, justifiable on other grounds, or able to produce favorable results (favorable for Libyans, that is, nevermind who else benefits). I agree with most of your post except this. You could apply this to any intervention against a dictator, most notably Iraq. Invading Iraq had some justifiable grounds based on Hussein's treatment of his people, but the reasons the US and its allies used to get there weren't so benevolent. So yeah, there may be good results from an intervention, but the intervening powers can still be cold-hearted assholes worthy of criticism. I have no problem supporting the rebels, but NATO has basically shredded the UN resolution that allowed them to intervene, and that should be talked about as well. They never had the authority to do some of the things they are doing. It's good that they are, but one day the same things might be done in a more ambiguous setting.
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Aug 21, 2011 12:04
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Anyone watching Mr Spokesman giving an odd speech? Its on BBC news now. He seems to have forgotten to remove some shaving cream
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Aug 21, 2011 12:12
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Latest update on the rebels progress from Zawiyah:quote:More from Sky: its correspondent with rebels just west of Tripoli reports that the forces reached the very edge of the city before retreating somewhat, seemingly after a counter-attack from pro-Gaddafi forces.
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Aug 21, 2011 12:16
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Slave posted:Anyone watching Mr Spokesman giving an odd speech? Its on BBC news now. He seems to have forgotten to remove some shaving cream is that the libya government spokesman?
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Aug 21, 2011 12:16
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Systematic posted:is that the libya government spokesman? Yeah, Moussa Ibrahim with the shocking revelation that the rebels are being supported by NATO. His tone seems to have changed from 'heh, rebels gonna get crushed' to 'Tripoli being captured would be a hugely immoral disaster, drat you NATO'
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Aug 21, 2011 12:19
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VikingSkull posted:I agree with most of your post except this. You could apply this to any intervention against a dictator, most notably Iraq. Invading Iraq had some justifiable grounds based on Hussein's treatment of his people, but the reasons the US and its allies used to get there weren't so benevolent. So yeah, there may be good results from an intervention, but the intervening powers can still be cold-hearted assholes worthy of criticism. Wait, which part are you disagreeing with? You're both saying that it's possible to do the right thing for the wrong reasons.
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Aug 21, 2011 12:19
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watching the speech from mister spokesman, the speech seem's like the last speech of a desperate regime.
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Aug 21, 2011 12:21
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Slave posted:Yeah, Moussa Ibrahim with the shocking revelation that the rebels are being supported by NATO. His tone seems to have changed from 'heh, rebels gonna get crushed' to 'Tripoli being captured would be a hugely immoral disaster, drat you NATO' heh, well they had it coming, he was just too deep in state propoganda
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Aug 21, 2011 12:24
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Just realised I've been posting the wrong link to my Twitter list, here's the right one.
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Aug 21, 2011 12:25
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Cameraman has gotten bored and is now zooming around different parts of the room
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Aug 21, 2011 12:26
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Does this man believe the poo poo coming out of his mouth? or his he just a good liar?
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Aug 21, 2011 12:27
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quote:Ibrahim says he studied in UK and thought he understood the 'west'. Says the west is full of media spin.
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Aug 21, 2011 12:30
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griffia posted:Does this man believe the poo poo coming out of his mouth? or his he just a good liar? He does seem pretty earnest and the narrative is consistent. I think he believes it passionately - no-one wants to be a bad guy after all. He either doesn't believe in the atrocities his side is guilty of or has put a blind eye to them. Cognitive dissonance and all that.
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Aug 21, 2011 12:31
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^^^^^^ Yeah, At least you can see his resolve is cracking under the strain. let's just hope those journalists are safe and not used by the loyalists as some form of leverage.
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Aug 21, 2011 12:35
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In Egypt, protesters are crazy. According to the AJE reporter they "want to see the ambassador expelled, all ties between Israel and Egypt cut and reconsideration of the 1969 peace treaty". They do realize an all-out war with Israel would not end well for Egypt, right?
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Aug 21, 2011 12:44
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Here's a AJE report on the Tripoli Brigade, which is currently on the way to Tripoli based on various report: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97r1T2MYL7A
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Aug 21, 2011 12:46
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