MakerBots, RepRaps and UP!s: It's 3D printers!

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Aurium: Oct 10, 2010

bolind posted:

Explain automatic bed levelers to me. Do they compensate for a slightly off bed, or do they help you achieve a perfectly level bed (with manual adjustments?)

Or do they simply ensure that 0 on the z-axis is exactly where it should be?

Fully automatic ones have a sensor that can be used to read the height of the bed in multiple places, and do compensation based on those readings.

You can also do manual bed compensation, where you have the printer move to a grid of positions, move the nozzle up and down to set the heights. The printer will still compensate for bed warping, it just can't generate the offsets in the first place.

In addition to the above, you it's also helpful to move the nozzle around at z=0 and adjust the bed thumbscrews up to meet the nozzle, as this gets the bed as close to level as possible. This is purely a physical adjustment that the printer itself isn't aware of. There are files to assist you with this by moving the nozzel to set places and then pausing it and then pausing it to give you a point to adjust it to.

# ? Jan 7, 2019 03:51

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# ? Jun 11, 2024 02:13

Golluk: Oct 22, 2008

Just to add to the bed leveling stuff, it moves Z up and down to follow the curves of the bed, keeping the nozzle height/gap consistent. Automatic bed level compensation might be a more accurate term. I don't think any printers in the consumer market physically adjust the bed based off the probe.

Usually there is also an option to fade out the compensation. So while the bottom of the print will only be as flat as the bed, The top can be "perfectly" flat.

Personally I aim to get the bed within +/- 0.05mm with the thumbscrews and a dial indicator over 4 points. Then get to +/- 0.03 over a 9 point mesh, by manually measuring single layer test prints with calipers. The 0.2mm initial layers I usually use have no trouble sticking at that accuracy, and I've gone down to 0.08 as well.

# ? Jan 7, 2019 16:58

Rapulum_Dei: Sep 7, 2009

Picked up a second hand, factory assembled, Prusa Mk3 with the powder coated bed for 480 bucks.

I didn�t really need it but no regrets. It�s stupidly quiet.

# ? Jan 7, 2019 19:35

Deviant: Sep 26, 2003; i've forgotten all of your names.

Rapulum_Dei posted:

Picked up a second hand, factory assembled, Prusa Mk3 with the powder coated bed for 480 bucks.

I didn�t really need it but no regrets. It�s stupidly quiet.

where's this at and do they have more?

also, is the prusa still the gold standard? or would I buy something else if i had a few hundo to blow today?

Deviant fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Jan 7, 2019

# ? Jan 7, 2019 19:36

Rexxed: May 1, 2010; Dis is amazing!
I gotta try dis!

I think this roll of PLA is bad, basically no layer adhesion. The gyroid infill is spaghetti and I can pull it apart easily. This is sky blue from Ziro, which no longer has an amazon listing. I was able to print other objects with it so I'm wondering if there's some weird temperature range it likes (since 205C seemed to work better than 215C despite the roll saying 190-220).

# ? Jan 7, 2019 20:47

Golluk: Oct 22, 2008

The walls look OK, but the bottom/top layers look under extruded. What's the print speed on top/bottom layer and infill vs wall print speed?

I'd try bumping flow rate by 5-10%, or slowing infill print speed by 20%, see if either help.

# ? Jan 7, 2019 22:23

Queen Combat: Dec 29, 2017; Lipstick Apathy

Or, replace the nozzle. Just for a lark.

I have a feeling

# ? Jan 7, 2019 22:26

Rexxed: May 1, 2010; Dis is amazing!
I gotta try dis!

Queen Combat posted:

Or, replace the nozzle. Just for a lark.

I have a feeling

That's actually a new nozzle, I replaced it on Thursday. There could be a partial clog, I was printing with PETG before and I assume it was all purged but maybe not.

# ? Jan 7, 2019 23:50

Queen Combat: Dec 29, 2017; Lipstick Apathy

Give it a shot, keep the old one. They're cheap, and reduce potential failures.

# ? Jan 8, 2019 00:09

Nevets: Sep 11, 2002; Be they sad or be they well,
I'll make their lives a hell

Did you measure the new filament's thickness? If it's too narrow it would underextrude.

# ? Jan 8, 2019 00:13

AlexDeGruven: Jun 29, 2007; Watch me pull my dongle out of this tiny box

I have literally over 100 nozzles of various sizes and threads in my work area. They're small, cheap, and disposable. If I even suspect a nozzle clog, I give it a quick ream. If it keeps happening, I toss it.

# ? Jan 8, 2019 01:32

Rexxed: May 1, 2010; Dis is amazing!
I gotta try dis!

Nevets posted:

Did you measure the new filament's thickness? If it's too narrow it would underextrude.

I think that's actually the issue, it's measuring as thin as 1.71 just where I'm grabbing it. Not seeing it over 1.75 at all. I'm having similar issues with it on my other printer.

# ? Jan 8, 2019 01:40

Queen Combat: Dec 29, 2017; Lipstick Apathy

AlexDeGruven posted:

I have literally over 100 nozzles of various sizes and threads in my work area. They're small, cheap, and disposable. If I even suspect a nozzle clog, I give it a quick ream. If it keeps happening, I toss it.

I buy nozzles in packs of 20. Sometimes I've had two bad ones in a row. Rare, but has happened. I put them aside into a "maybe ream these, later" pile.

# ? Jan 8, 2019 02:51

Hypnolobster: Apr 12, 2007; What this sausage party needs is a big dollop of ketchup! Too bad I didn't make any.

How fast do nozzles wear? I've still got the first .4 nozzle on my Ender 3. About halfway through a 1kg roll of PLA without doing any swaps.

# ? Jan 8, 2019 03:41

insta: Jan 28, 2009

They clog before they wear, if you're using normal plastics. Figure about one nozzle per two rolls of plastic, and be happy when they last longer than that.

# ? Jan 8, 2019 03:52

Rexxed: May 1, 2010; Dis is amazing!
I gotta try dis!

Rexxed posted:

I think that's actually the issue, it's measuring as thin as 1.71 just where I'm grabbing it. Not seeing it over 1.75 at all. I'm having similar issues with it on my other printer.

103% flow rate allowed the part to finish and not have layer issues. It feels a little weird on the top so I should probably have gone 105% or a little more but it's good to know what the issue was at least. The part is just to hold a 2.5" SSD into a 3.5" HD bay slot. Usually I'd use 3M removable adhesive squares or just let it hang, but it's for a friend's dad's all-in-one PC, and who knows what it'll have to contend with so I'm gonna secure it. The part doesn't have to be super strong but not literally falling apart in my hands is not quite strong enough.

As an aside (well, I just printed one to give to someone) this is a nice little configurable case for SD and MicroSD cards. I've got a dozen of them around in RPis, earning program phones, mp3 players and cameras so it's good to have a repository for those and the adapters. The threads work better than some of the other models I've used and being able to configure it with OpenSCAD is nice:
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2939459

# ? Jan 8, 2019 04:08

Golluk: Oct 22, 2008

Glad to hear you got it sorted. I used to think you could keep flow rate at 100% if the filament was consistent diameter, and you had the extruder e-steps right. But I've found if you want to get really accurate dimensions for holes, or parts that fit together, you have to start playing with the flow rate after, measuring single wall prints with calipers (cube with 0 infill, 0 top layers). 80-105% is what I usually get to have 0.45mm lines actually measure to 0.44-0.47mm thick walls.

# ? Jan 8, 2019 04:26

Sagebrush: Feb 26, 2012; erm... actually thieves should be summarily executed

bolind posted:

Explain automatic bed levelers to me. Do they compensate for a slightly off bed, or do they help you achieve a perfectly level bed (with manual adjustments?)

Or do they simply ensure that 0 on the z-axis is exactly where it should be?

we need to put this into the OP already. or maybe I'll just put it in my signature

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3365193&pagenumber=345&perpage=40#post488825135

Sagebrush posted:

Oh, and forgot to respond to this. This should probably be in the OP or something because it comes up all the time:

Yes, bed leveling and bed zeroing are two different things.

Bed leveling is ensuring that the plane of your bed surface is oriented flat and square with respect to the machine's movement axes. With a level bed, you can bring the nozzle down to 1.00mm above the surface and slide it around to any other location, and it will always maintain that same separation of 1.00mm. You adjust the bed leveling with mounting nuts on its corners or a similar system. Note that leveling is entirely relative to the way the machine moves, and not related to gravity (i.e. you don't need a spirit level) or anything else external. Your machine could be tilted 30 degrees with respect to the floor and still work fine, or your bed could even be noticeably out-of-level within the machine's frame, but as long as the angle of the bed matches the angle at which the X/Y axes travel, it will work correctly. In addition to being level, bed surfaces also need to be flat -- i.e. a geometric plane with no curvature. You may level your bed by measuring at each corner, but find that the whole thing is bowed in the middle, for instance. Some bed designs or materials are more flat than others; an aluminum tooling plate is flatter than borosilicate glass, which is flatter than cast polycarbonate, which is flatter than extruded aluminum sheet, and so on. If your bed is noticeably unflat, no amount of mechanical leveling will fix it; you will have to use a mesh leveling protocol (see below) to compensate for it dynamically, or just print on the flattest parts of the bed and ignore the bad areas.

Bed zeroing is the process of finding exactly where the nozzle is (vertically) relative to the bed surface. When the initial layer of plastic goes down, the nozzle-to-bed separation has to be very precisely set in order to get the proper amount of squish and bond the plastic to the bed correctly. If the nozzle is too far away from the bed, the plastic will just sort of fall onto the surface instead of being pressed into it, and you'll have a weakly bonded first layer that is likely to peel off. If the nozzle is too close, there won't be enough space for the plastic to extrude and expand correctly, and you'll end up with a very thin first layer, no first layer at all (as the extruder motor slips trying to force plastic out of a blocked nozzle), or a weird rippled fishscale pattern that occurs as the plastic alternately jams and then suddenly spurts out, laying down uneven traces. The specific separation you use will vary according to your layer height, but it needs to be set accurately to within 0.1mm (0.003") to get good bonding.

Setting the bed zeroing is done in a variety of ways: a limit switch somewhere on the Z-axis that you adjust physically until it triggers at the same moment the nozzle touches the bed; an inductive sensor that can detect the metal under/of your bed surface from a few millimeters away; or a contact sensor like the BLTouch that directly measures from the surface of the bed. Usually these sensors don't trigger at the same moment that the nozzle is touching the surface. For instance, on my machines the BLTouch probe triggers when the nozzle is still about 2.7mm away. So the machine has a software setting that says "when the probe is triggered, the nozzle is 2.7mm above the surface," which lets me touch off the bed, then command a movement to Z0 and the nozzle will drop down just the right amount to sit on the glass. This is what people mean when they talk about adjusting your Z-offset -- playing with that number until a commanded move to zero actually brings you right to the bed surface.

Note that some people also use "z-offset" (incorrectly) to describe their initial layer height. As noted above, your first layer has to have some very specific thickness in order for it to stick, which is set by the initial height of the nozzle above the bed. Ideally, you would calibrate your machine's hardware and firmware perfectly so that a move to Z0 puts it right on the surface of the bed, and then in your slicer you would set the initial layer height to 0.25mm or whatever, and on the first layer the machine will accurately place the nozzle 0.25mm above the bed. However, some people confuse these two settings, or use one to compensate for the other. Perhaps their machine is actually zeroing the bed when the nozzle is 0.1mm "below" the bed surface (i.e. rammed in and deflecting the bed or frame a tiny bit). When they command an initial layer height of 0.25mm, that miscalibration means that their machine moves to an actual position of 0.15mm above the bed, which makes their first layer too thin, so they think oh, I need to increase my initial layer height, and they bring it up to 0.35mm and that works and they tell everyone that this is the secret to 3D printing -- but they're just unknowingly compensating for bad calibration. This kind of thing is a very common caveat when you're getting advice from people on the internet.

So, all of this stuff is connected. The fundamental problem is that you need that +/- 0.1mm tolerance in your first layer all over the bed. If your bed is not level, or if it is not flat, then your first layer height will change as you move in X and Y. If your zeroing is wrong, then the first layer height will be off everywhere, even if the bed is flat and level. The ideal process is:

1) get your machine mechanically square using 1-2-3 blocks, dial indicators, machinist's squares and the like, ensuring that the X, Y and Z travel are perfectly linear and perpendicular
2) use a dial indicator to level your bed relative to the machine axes, ensuring that the nozzle-to-bed separation is consistent and within tolerance anywhere it can reach
2a) if the bed is unflat and you can't get acceptable leveling just with the bed screws, replace the bed with a flatter surface
3) adjust your z-zeroing mechanically so that you have a reasonable, repeatable touch-off point that's a millimeter or two above the bed surface
4) adjust your z-offset in software so that, after zeroing, you can command a move to Z0 and bring the nozzle right down to touch the surface with zero gap and zero compression. If you can slide in a 0.001" feeler gauge but not a 0.002" you should be fine.

However, that process may be out of reach of people who don't own machinists' measuring equipment or who just aren't super mechanically adept. Dialing in the bed level using just a sheet of paper can be finicky. And maybe you don't want to start going down the rabbit hole of getting flatter and flatter bed surfaces and modifying your machine just yet. So, to help compensate, you can use mesh leveling. In this technique, the machine uses its zeroing probe to repeatedly measure the bed surface in a grid pattern. This generates a map of where the bed is higher and lower and by how much, which the machine can use in concert with a correctly set z-offset to compensate for out-of-level or unflat surfaces by driving the Z-axis up and down as it builds the first layer. Modern slicers will gradually fade this compensation out over a few dozen layers so that the part itself doesn't end up skewed. Mesh leveling is not required for a properly set-up and calibrated machine, but it is extremely useful to increase reliability in the real world, where parts aren't perfect and machines get out of calibration and poo poo just happens.

Hopefully this has been helpful and hasn't just added to the confusion.

# ? Jan 8, 2019 07:09

Yooper: Apr 30, 2012

insta posted:

They clog before they wear, if you're using normal plastics. Figure about one nozzle per two rolls of plastic, and be happy when they last longer than that.

Wow, that seems like a crazy rate. I print 1/2 to 1 roll a week in my Prusa and haven't had to replace the nozzle since July of 2017. The stock Prusa nozzle got pooped up and I replaced it with a Matterhackers CleanTip Brass nozzle.

# ? Jan 8, 2019 14:18

insta: Jan 28, 2009

Mine last forever too, but at 12 cents for a Chinese nozzle in a 20 pack, it's best (imo) to encourage newbies to just discard and replace at the hint of a clog. Nozzles for me are more consumable than bed surfaces, which are both way LESS consumable than plastic.

(I don't actually discard, I use MakerGears so my nozzles are $12 each, so I save the clogged ones and blowtorch them all clean once a month)

# ? Jan 8, 2019 15:50

Grey Hunter: Oct 17, 2007; Hero of the soviet union.
Accidental destroyer of planets

Right, having what my wife calls "an addiction to making cubes" (look, its not my fault that they are the only thing I can fit on the warped bed, and the glass one is still in the post.) I gave finally dialed my settings in to almost smooth sides.

I even managed to get the speed up again and halve the print time!

All I'm left with is this, where i can see the top and bottom layers at the sides.

http://imgur.com/a/gNExygv

(Note to self. I dont think i need that many top layers.)

I'm using cura, any idea what could be causing this? I can live with it i guess, but i know im doing something stupid.

# ? Jan 9, 2019 18:35

Combat Pretzel: Jun 23, 2004; No, seriously... what kurds?!

Might probably want to fiddle with the linear/pressure advance setting off your firmware to make those corners nicer.

# ? Jan 9, 2019 18:52

PirateDentist: Mar 28, 2006; Sailing The Seven Seas Searching For Scurvy

What might be the culprit to cause the little holes at the corner and by the circles?

There are similar holes for the same structures on the opposite side of the piece. Otherwise the piece looks pretty good. The overhangs I can understand because there's no cooling. Printing 0.25mm layer heights with ABS on a Taz 6.

# ? Jan 10, 2019 02:00

Combat Pretzel: Jun 23, 2004; No, seriously... what kurds?!

Are you by chance using Simplify3D and have coasting enabled?

# ? Jan 10, 2019 02:32

PirateDentist: Mar 28, 2006; Sailing The Seven Seas Searching For Scurvy

Combat Pretzel posted:

Are you by chance using Simplify3D and have coasting enabled?

Using Cura LE, and coasting is not enabled on it. I've thought about trying Simplify3D, but that's a steep price when every other option is free.

# ? Jan 10, 2019 04:22

insta: Jan 28, 2009

What's your reaction set to? On a Taz, it should be like .5mm. You can also bump the nozzle temp higher. ABS should always be run hotter. No exceptions.

# ? Jan 10, 2019 06:42

Shai-Hulud: Jul 10, 2008; But it feels so right!; Lipstick Apathy

So, uh, if you have one of them Ender 3s you might wanna check on that XT60 connector that connects the power supply.
Cause that fucker is melting:

The plug ist starting to discolor and its at about 80C.

# ? Jan 10, 2019 08:24

ImplicitAssembler: Jan 24, 2013

It takes a lot to do that to a XT-60. Wonder if it's a cheap copy? I mean, how many amps is the PS on that thing?

# ? Jan 10, 2019 08:52

Verizian: Dec 18, 2004; The spiky one.

I just got my ender 3 pro kit last week and now I'm hearing about all these overheating and fire hazard issues from potential knockoffs. I'd assumed it was just idiots on youtube leaving the thing printing for a week solid at slow speeds for some reason but now I'm feeling a bit cautious.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07J64F5LY/ Is the legit one in the UK right?

Seller info from Amazon.

Business Name:SHENZHEN CREALITY3D TECHNOLOGY LTD
Business Type:Ltd
Trade Register Number:91440300094231378E
VAT Number:GB286408182
Business Address:
12th Floor, 3rd building,Jincheng Industry area 19
huafan road, Dalang Street, Longhua district
Shenzhen
Guangdong
518109
CN

Also assuming it's legit and safe, what's needed if I wanted to print more than just PLA? Specifically woodfill, TPU, and maybe PETG? I'm guessing a glass bed for the PETG and larger nozzles for the woodfill and flexible filaments to avoid clogs?

# ? Jan 10, 2019 09:03

BMan: Oct 31, 2015; KNIIIIIIFE
EEEEEYYYYE
ATTAAAACK

I mean the "legit" one is still made in china from the cheapest possible components

# ? Jan 10, 2019 09:06

PirateDentist: Mar 28, 2006; Sailing The Seven Seas Searching For Scurvy

insta posted:

What's your reaction set to? On a Taz, it should be like .5mm. You can also bump the nozzle temp higher. ABS should always be run hotter. No exceptions.

Retraction? It's at 1mm right now, the default for the ABS profile. Also printing at 250C right now, will probably experiment with a bit higher yet. The hotend on this is good to 300C.

Shai-Hulud posted:

So, uh, if you have one of them Ender 3s you might wanna check on that XT60 connector that connects the power supply.
Cause that fucker is melting:

The plug ist starting to discolor and its at about 80C.

Might not be crimped right and is causing high resistance. I've had that develop in a 2 gauge Anderson connector that forklifts use for their bigass batteries, one started to kinda flow off the cable ends once it heated up to about 300 degrees while charging. Cut it off, recrimped the cables with a new plug.

BMan posted:

I mean the "legit" one is still made in china from the cheapest possible components

True, but maybe the real one vs a counterfeit uses the appropriate plastic at least and not just "yellow"

# ? Jan 10, 2019 09:34

Shai-Hulud: Jul 10, 2008; But it feels so right!; Lipstick Apathy

PirateDentist posted:

Might not be crimped right and is causing high resistance. I've had that develop in a 2 gauge Anderson connector that forklifts use for their bigass batteries, one started to kinda flow off the cable ends once it heated up to about 300 degrees while charging. Cut it off, recrimped the cables with a new plug.

I might just cut it off and solder the wires back together. I don't really need a plug there anyway. If i want to take of the power supply for some reason i can just unscrew the cables directly.

# ? Jan 10, 2019 10:04

Combat Pretzel: Jun 23, 2004; No, seriously... what kurds?!

PirateDentist posted:

I've thought about trying Simplify3D, but that's a steep price when every other option is free.

Don't. It's been stagnating like hell, with the exception of supports, Cura and slic3r PE flew past it.

# ? Jan 10, 2019 14:49

bring back old gbs: Feb 28, 2007; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Am I doing something wrong, or does Slic3r 1.3 not allow you to control the 3d printer itself? you can just import an object, slice it?

I was hoping it could replace RepetierHost/CuraEngine but not if I cant move the hotend around when I want to

EDIT: Whats the new hotness for a Host/Slicer combo these days??

# ? Jan 10, 2019 15:13

Golluk: Oct 22, 2008

Shai-Hulud posted:

I might just cut it off and solder the wires back together. I don't really need a plug there anyway. If i want to take of the power supply for some reason i can just unscrew the cables directly.

I'm thinking it more likely a bad solder job. If it was the actual connector failing, I'd expect the same melting at the other side as well.

# ? Jan 10, 2019 15:25

taqueso: Mar 8, 2004

Golluk posted:

I'm thinking it more likely a bad solder job. If it was the actual connector failing, I'd expect the same melting at the other side as well.

Usually those aren't soldered, the pins are mechanically crimped around the wire. Bad crimp = higher resistance = that spot gets hot. It pretty much has to be that or the device is consuming way more power than it should.

# ? Jan 10, 2019 15:36

Golluk: Oct 22, 2008

taqueso posted:

Usually those aren't soldered, the pins are mechanically crimped around the wire. Bad crimp = higher resistance = that spot gets hot. It pretty much has to be that or the device is consuming way more power than it should.

Huh, I could see the one end being possible to crimp. But the other side isn't much more than a spherical divot for the wire.

# ? Jan 10, 2019 16:04

taqueso: Mar 8, 2004

Golluk posted:

Huh, I could see the one end being possible to crimp. But the other side isn't much more than a spherical divot for the wire.

Sorry, I am totally wrong, those connectors are solder cups:

# ? Jan 10, 2019 16:06

Sagebrush: Feb 26, 2012; erm... actually thieves should be summarily executed

bring back old gbs posted:

Am I doing something wrong, or does Slic3r 1.3 not allow you to control the 3d printer itself? you can just import an object, slice it?

I was hoping it could replace RepetierHost/CuraEngine but not if I cant move the hotend around when I want to

EDIT: Whats the new hotness for a Host/Slicer combo these days??

Octoprint for the host, PrusaSlic3r for the slicer.

I haven't tried PrusaControl (and so don't know if it can be configured for any printer, or just Prusas) but I like their software in general. Give it a shot.

I still use Repetier for the cases when I need to be directly connected. It's kinda janky but it does the job.

# ? Jan 10, 2019 16:47

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# ? Jun 11, 2024 02:13

Shai-Hulud: Jul 10, 2008; But it feels so right!; Lipstick Apathy

taqueso posted:

Sorry, I am totally wrong, those connectors are solder cups:

You'd think so but these are special chinese XT60 plugs! All crimping all the way:

# ? Jan 10, 2019 19:54

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Hobbies, Crafts, & Houses > MakerBots, RepRaps and UP!s: It's 3D printers!

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