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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:At Press Conference right now: I'm surprised they don't just say they planned it too, like it's too extreme for them or something. If you fund it, and celebrate it: quote:ran’s supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, suggested on Tuesday that Iran was not behind the incursion in Israel, while praising what he called Israel’s “irreparable” military and intelligence defeat. Then what does taking credit matter, it won't trigger US action either way. I guess some part of me finds the idea of some higher-up in the IRGC being like "that's a bit much even for my taste" refreshing?
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:10 |
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# ? May 27, 2024 03:39 |
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zer0spunk posted:I'm surprised they don't just say they planned it too, like it's too extreme for them or something. If you fund it, and celebrate it: I think they're literally just saying they did not plan it. Funding and celebrating is not planning. You're reading into it and applying personal motives that reinforce what you already think.
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:15 |
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https://twitter.com/vonderleyen/status/1582630271287021570?t=Vsb6g7vb_N-Ph1cqAy3Fkw&s=19 Heh.
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:21 |
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Failed Imagineer posted:https://twitter.com/vonderleyen/status/1582630271287021570?t=Vsb6g7vb_N-Ph1cqAy3Fkw&s=19
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:23 |
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I think neither the US nor Iran are ready for a full scale war right now and are therefore not inclined to pour gas on this Once Israel goes into the Strip (or whatever big move is coming) then positions may change again.
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:23 |
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Failed Imagineer posted:https://twitter.com/vonderleyen/status/1582630271287021570?t=Vsb6g7vb_N-Ph1cqAy3Fkw&s=19 The U.S. is currently unwilling to encourage Israel to not starve and slaughter people: https://twitter.com/samhusseini/status/1712072059830853872
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:27 |
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NYT has an article up now about the recent U.S. intelligence announcement with more details:quote:Early Intelligence Shows Hamas Attack Surprised Iranian Leaders, U.S. Says https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/11/us/politics/iran-israel-gaza-hamas-us-intelligence.html
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:27 |
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Count Roland posted:Once Israel goes into the Strip (or whatever big move is coming) then positions may change again. That is what's next, this thread moves fast so I don't know if this stuff was covered or not. - 300,000 reservists are called up https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/10/israel-military-draft-reservists/ -evacuation of the areas nearby the strip https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-evacuates-civilians-from-gaza-area-towns-as-forces-scour-for-remaining-gunmen/ I wish I could find the article that gave the figure, but it was saying 25,000 "militants" between all the factions in gaza for context, but embedded in the population, not in uniforms, out in their own turf..it usually ends up bloody when they fight inside gaza, and this time there's this massive grudge going in..not good zer0spunk fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Oct 11, 2023 |
# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:34 |
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https://twitter.com/GhassanAbuSitt1/status/1711996286621061432?t=khQT6knGSPOPm0IqC0Jhxg&s=19 Just absolute barbarity being inflicted upon palestine.
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:35 |
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celadon posted:https://www.businessinsider.com/idf-says-wont-back-up-beheaded-babies-disrespectful-2023-10 quote:Laura Cellier, an i24NEWS news anchor, said in a post Wednesday that "we stand firmly behind our reporters." She said they were "told by 3 separate IDF officials that around 40 babies & small children were murdered in Kfar Aza, some burned, some beheaded." From that article. It's not just IDF saying it, fwiw. That's why CBS published. It doesn't make anyone more confident in any of the information by blanket denying any further investigation. But would IDF do a post mortem investigation? Or would that be another agency? I'm not familiar with how Israel would handle this (if they even chose to do so).
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:40 |
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The only reason the Rafah border crossing (the one and only border crossing on Gaza's border with Egypt) is closed right now is because Israel bombed it several times yesterday and issued a threat to Egypt that they'd bomb any aid or supplies that might come through the border. In any case, it's not like there's a huge wave of Palestinians flocking to the border begging to be let through right now. The IDF has called for Gazans to flee to Egypt, but there doesn't seem to have been many people following that advice so far - which is probably good, given that the IDF bombed the crossing after saying that. Egypt is rejecting Israeli/American calls for Egypt to open up for a mass exodus of Palestinians, yes. But Israel is rejecting Egypt's calls for Israel to allow them to send in humanitarian aid so that the population doesn't have to become refugees, so why is Egypt the primary villain here? We can argue about whether Egypt is doing enough to save the victims of Israeli ethnic cleansing, but it's a rather bizarre conversation to have when the world is overwhelmingly on the side of the country doing the ethnic cleansing. It almost feels like people are acting as if no one except Hamas and Egypt have any agency - that indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas by Israel is as inevitable as the sun rising in the east, and that the only thing that can possibly be done to save Palestinian lives is for Egypt to take the refugees. Rogue AI Goddess posted:Opening borders to refugees fleeing from extermination at the hands of a genocidal regime is always humane and morally right. If you are concerned that doing so would be playing into the exterminator's hands, consider that it will also enable you to apply sanctions and other pressure tactics to the regime in question without the brunt of them being redirected to the oppressed people. The big issue in this comparison is that neither the US nor most of the rest of the world have any intention of taking any sort of action against Israel for this. America and Europe are actively supporting this destruction, and Israel's immediate neighbors can't enforce meaningful sanctions by themselves. Moreover, Egypt shares a land border with Gaza and therefore could supply the population directly...if not for the fact that Israel is openly threatening to bomb their aid convoys. Before making Holocaust analogies, consider how the Holocaust ended. Because remember, it didn't end with the Jews being subservient and loyal to the Nazis in hopes of convincing Hitler to let them off. It ended with a multinational coalition invading the country that perpetrated the Holocaust, liberating the concentration camps by force, and executing the leaders who ordered and carried out the Holocaust. If this was really like WWII, then we shouldn't just be asking Egypt to accept refugees - we should be sending them to send an army to liberate Gaza. But if they did that, they'd be international pariahs.
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:41 |
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Hmm some basic recognition of hypocrisy by at least one EU leader. https://twitter.com/thejournal_ie/status/1712081528627290324?t=Di5SffhIUT-CnfQ7Ew587w&s=19 Fucken Israel, got me nodding approvingly at my country's dickhead neolib leader
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:42 |
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https://twitter.com/UN/status/1712112794269544605 9 UN workers have died of bomb-related injuries.
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:43 |
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Failed Imagineer posted:Hmm some basic recognition of hypocrisy by at least one EU leader. It's concerning that "unambiguously condemning Israel's ongoing bombing of Palestine" is such a high bar to clear among EU leadership.
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:45 |
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Hamas has not supported a two state solution for over a decade. They have been explicitly against it since they were formed. The only time it has sort of seemed ambiguous was their 2017 political document, which about 5 years old, where they said they did not support a two-state solution, but would support a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders as a starting point - with a commitment to eventually enlarging a Palestinian state from the river to the sea. So in other words they support a two state solution. You don’t need to accept the entire framework of your occupier to come to a truce. Israel has no interest in giving a single inch while Hamas is giving a whole drat half a country. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:47 |
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zer0spunk posted:That is what's next, this thread moves fast so I don't know if this stuff was covered or not. So is this just going to end in mass murder, 0 Palestinians in Gaza and Israel getting away scott free with committing mass genocide, while the rest of the world just watches and makes a pariah of anyone who tries to speak up against it? Because it reads like Israel is getting ready to just march in an army.
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:52 |
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What exactly would anyone do? When America invaded other nations as revenge and occupied them no one stopped them either You can't really stop a country unless you're willing to go to war with them
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:59 |
Mean Baby posted:So in other words they support a two state solution.
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 20:59 |
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Zzulu posted:What exactly would anyone do? When America invaded other nations as revenge and occupied them no one stopped them either The USA is orders of magnitude more powerful on a bunch of different axes. If the Israel’s allies cut it off it would almost certainly capitulate quickly.
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:03 |
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Randalor posted:So is this just going to end in mass murder, 0 Palestinians in Gaza and Israel getting away scott free with committing mass genocide, while the rest of the world just watches and makes a pariah of anyone who tries to speak up against it? Because it reads like Israel is getting ready to just march in an army. Yes, they declared war and are marching in an army to dismantle Hamas. I don't know how to say war isn't mass murder but it is, and then we go down the "ethics of war" path on mass murder with a reason** and that's not what anyone wants to do here Opposing a war is totally valid, but it is happening, with a good majority of the world saying it's a reactionary move, and the US going so far as to say it must happen quote:Hamas does not stand for the Palestinian people’s right to dignity and self-determination. Its stated purpose is the annihilation of the State of Israel and the murder of Jewish people. https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2023/10/10/remarks-by-president-biden-on-the-terrorist-attacks-in-israel-2/ It was a fairly impassioned speech, for a modern US politician anyway
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:03 |
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zer0spunk posted:Yes, they declared war and are marching in an army to dismantle Hamas. I don't know how to say war isn't mass murder but it is, and then we go down the "ethics of war" path on mass murder with a reason** and that's not what anyone wants to do here On the other hand simply calling something war doesn't make it suddenly stop being a mass murder. You can get into the ethics of war part but when one side has an overwhelming advantage and has stated their end goal is the total razing of every single structure then that doesn't really sound like a war.
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:07 |
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the two-state solution imply mutual recognition of state borders? Otherwise the proposed solution is just to freeze the conflict.
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:08 |
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Zzulu posted:What exactly would anyone do? When America invaded other nations as revenge and occupied them no one stopped them either America has a lot of leverage over Israel due to how much aid and business we give them.
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:08 |
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Nov 5, 2023 |
# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:09 |
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ImpAtom posted:On the other hand simply calling something war doesn't make it suddenly stop being a mass murder. You can get into the ethics of war part but when one side has an overwhelming advantage and has stated their end goal is the total razing of every single structure then that doesn't really sound like a war. I would have to disagree and say the mutual need for the destruction of the enemy on both sides constitutes one of the bigger definitions of war. Israel wants hamas gone, hamas wants all israelis gone. Even worse, it's a proxy war when it's being funded by another enemy from abroad who won't engage themselves since they won't sustain casualties, and also get to admonish israel for "over reacting" win/win
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:14 |
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Zzulu posted:What exactly would anyone do? When America invaded other nations as revenge and occupied them no one stopped them either In a fair and just world Israel would be put on the same level as Russia. They would be heavily sanctioned, all trade would stop, leaders would be arrested on contact... It would be even more effective, and you don't even need to go that far considering how Israel is reliant on western support.
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:19 |
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Nail Rat posted:Let's be clear, the Palestinians (including 1 loving million children) will not be starving to death. A couple people posted earlier in the thread that "Israel cut off water to Gaza" is, while somewhat accurate, reductionist. Israel does not control all of Gaza's access, or even a majority of it, as such. They cut off... I want to say something like 10%?, but also, Gaza is extremely reliant on purification and filtration systems for the rest of their supply, which is obviously going to experience some problems via power loss and all the bombing. Gaza's water situation isn't zero, but it's bad.
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:24 |
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Is Israel's economy dependent on foreign aid? Or is it mostly military? Western sanctions would cripple their economy, but would cutting aid?
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:24 |
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Bholder posted:In a fair and just world Israel would be put on the same level as Russia. It's mutually beneficial in reality, but that's not as cool of a way to frame it https://il.usembassy.gov/our-relationship/policy-history/fact-sheet-u-s-israel-economic-relationship/ quote:The First U.S. Free Trade Agreement If we've moved on to "why are the US and israel allies" portion of the discussion, I'm just going to say "see: holocaust" as a foundational cornerstone answer and bow out of that silly debate
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:26 |
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Google Jeb Bush posted:A couple people posted earlier in the thread that "Israel cut off water to Gaza" is, while somewhat accurate, reductionist. Israel does not control all of Gaza's access, or even a majority of it, as such. They cut off... I want to say something like 10%?, but also, Gaza is extremely reliant on purification and filtration systems for the rest of their supply, which is obviously going to experience some problems via power loss and all the bombing. With no power, it is zero. What are you talking about? And before you say, "Gaza produces its own power!" https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/11/middleeast/gaza-power-plant-shuts-down-intl/index.html quote:Gaza’s only power station has stopped working after the fuel needed for generating electricity ran out on Wednesday, Gaza officials said. studio mujahideen fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Oct 11, 2023 |
# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:28 |
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ummel posted:Is Israel's economy dependent on foreign aid? Or is it mostly military? Western sanctions would cripple their economy, but would cutting aid? They're not, they've got a pretty vibrant economy especially for the region, though of course with their own problems. A quick Google suggests Israel's military budget is strong 24 billion, of which 3 bill is US aid. These numbers are probably skew for several reasons but that's a starting point.
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:31 |
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Nov 5, 2023 |
# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:32 |
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B B posted:The U.S. is currently unwilling to encourage Israel to not starve and slaughter people: drink every time this smarmy gently caress smirks
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:48 |
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mannerup fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Nov 5, 2023 |
# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:53 |
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Zzulu posted:What exactly would anyone do? When America invaded other nations as revenge and occupied them no one stopped them either Countries did go to war with Nazi Germany. That's how the Holocaust was eventually stopped, when the invading armies reached and liberated the death camps on their way to Berlin. I'm not saying that those countries went to war specifically to stop the Holocaust, but when people are using Holocaust analogies to criticize the neighbors of the country committing the atrocity in question, it wouldn't make sense to ignore how the international community treated the country committing the Holocaust or how the Holocaust was eventually stopped. Paladinus posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the two-state solution imply mutual recognition of state borders? Otherwise the proposed solution is just to freeze the conflict. There's been a fair few cases where two hostile groups were partitioned into a "two-state solution", reached a mutual peace or ceasefire, and just stayed that way even without a final solution working out their issues and disagreements once and for all. Even though neither side really officially acknowledged the other's borders or right to exist, they weren't willing to go back to war about it again. Those kinds of states generally don't have very good relations with each other, sure, but they've largely avoided full-scale war - even when the military balance between the two states vastly shifts. Once some kind of peaceful balance has been established and maintained for a while, it's pretty hard for them to go back to all those years of bloody war (especially if the international community is exerting pressure to keep it that way). For example, Korea. The president of South Korea during the Korean War was so virulently anti-North and so dedicated to unifying the Korean peninsula that he refused to sign the armistice ending the Korean War. But once he was forced into accepting peace (by US pressure and the unwillingness of the rest of the South Korean government to follow him), the peace has more or less held for all this time. Main Paineframe fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Oct 11, 2023 |
# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:55 |
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mannerup posted:Link to the news article and Channel 12 in Israel even cut to the Al Jazeera feed live to show the footage. Qatar and Egypt are both mediating hostage releases, any release should be cheered. I hope every one of them gets out. These kidnapped people aren't soldiers
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 21:58 |
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Unfortunately, there's no way to know that. For Palestine to ensure its safety they need to, and should, exercise extreme caution. Once potential combatants are captured, there's no safer place for them to be than in Palestinian custody, for their and for Palestine's sake, which I should remind you, is paramount at this time. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 22:04 |
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ummel posted:Is Israel's economy dependent on foreign aid? Or is it mostly military? Western sanctions would cripple their economy, but would cutting aid? I can’t imagine Germany halting reparations no matter what happens. Military aid could be stopped perhaps, but I don’t think Germany is going to change its stance in the near term.
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 22:09 |
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UP AND ADAM posted:Unfortunately, there's no way to know that. I think maybe this is just a miscommunication of the point you're making because conscription starts at 18 in Israel and underage children would visibly not be a combatant. There's no child soldier brigade, they are non-combatants definitively
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 22:11 |
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# ? May 27, 2024 03:39 |
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Main Paineframe posted:Countries did go to war with Nazi Germany. That's how the Holocaust was eventually stopped, when the invading armies reached and liberated the death camps on their way to Berlin. They ended the holocaust because Germany invaded them or declared war on them. Not because they wanted to go to war against Germany to protect ethnic or sexual minorities or political opposition there. In contrast, nothing happened as long as Hitler kept the atrocities within German borders. Plenty of countries remained neutral through all of it or were even allied with Germany. I just don't think that your argument works.
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# ? Oct 11, 2023 22:15 |