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It's kind of a weird cyclical thing - music is repeated so it's repeated more. That being said, I couldn't think of any music from a Marvel film that wasn't one of the shoehorned classic rock songs they insist upon for Iron Man. Guardians was OK music-wise, though.
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Sep 16, 2016 10:11
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CelticPredator posted:I know I have just posted this thing like 3 times in other threads, but I think boils down to this; I'm going to put forward the most brazenly obvious counterpoint to this anecdotal stream of utter nonsense, but if nobody cared about music in film, why the gently caress is it even there?
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Sep 16, 2016 10:39
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Some music is more memorable than other music because of the brain and how human memory and pattern recognition works, it's not just about playing it over and over. There's nothing inherently wrong with letting the soundtrack take a back seat to other aspects of a film when it comes to eliciting an emotional response to the audience, but I think one of the points about marvels use of temp tracks that Tony Zhou is making in the video is that by treating the music in this way and never giving composers the flexibility or the time to compose a really strong score they are neglecting to use something that can be a really powerful tool in filmmaking. There's no marvel equivalent to something like (to use a textbook example) Psycho's shower scene where the music is the central thing being used to elicit emotion and convey information to the audience. Zhou makes a similar point in another video about modern Hollywood comedy, where he is arguing that the genre is dominated by comedy driven exclusively by dialogue and is neglecting all the other elements that film as a medium can use to create comedy. He's not arguing against dialogue driven comedy, he's saying the genre would be richer if they used cinema's many other tools and elements. He's arguing the same thing here, I think, but in regards to music in film.
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Sep 16, 2016 10:45
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Chocolate Teapot posted:I'm going to put forward the most brazenly obvious counterpoint to this anecdotal stream of utter nonsense, but if nobody cared about music in film, why the gently caress is it even there? because music accentuates a scene and elicits emotion even if you aren't actively aware of it. i don't think you even need great music as long as the music you have fits well with the ideas and emotions you're trying to evoke.
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Sep 16, 2016 10:46
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Zhou really just messed up by putting so much emphasis on 'hummability' in the intro to his video, when he's actually making a bunch of smaller distinct criticisms. With the Marvel films, he's criticizing the overreliance on (expository) dialogue, music that's included 'for the sake of it' (meaning also an ineffective use of silence), and prominent cues that fail to augment the imagery they're accompanying. The thing is I'm pretty sure he never asserted that you need to be able to hum the music, people have been extrapolating that. It's about how systemic issues with scoring music prevent the creation of memorable scores. The unique score is treated as an afterthought, not a combined element of the film making/editing process.
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Sep 16, 2016 10:49
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Elfgames posted:because music accentuates a scene and elicits emotion even if you aren't actively aware of it. I know exactly why films use music, I just wanted to see CP blurt out some bullshit excuse because of whatever particular logic surfaces that only exists to exonerate Marvel's appaulling use thereof.
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Sep 16, 2016 10:57
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Red Bones posted:There's no marvel equivalent to something like (to use a textbook example) Psycho's shower scene where the music is the central thing being used to elicit emotion and convey information to the audience. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-YXnfFym7c&t=121s and this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y69kGmPeHw0 CelticPredator fucked around with this message at 11:01 on Sep 16, 2016 |
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Sep 16, 2016 10:59
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Chocolate Teapot posted:I know exactly why films use music, I just wanted to see CP blurt out some bullshit excuse because of whatever particular logic surfaces that only exists to exonerate Marvel's appaulling use thereof. My point was, most people don't run out to grab the score of the film they just watched. Even if they enjoyed it on some basic subconscious level. The music affected them, and that is the whole relationship they have with the music.
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Sep 16, 2016 11:00
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CelticPredator posted:My point was, most people don't run out to grab the score of the film they just watched. Even if they enjoyed it on some basic subconscious level. The music affected them, and that is the whole relationship they have with the music. Your initial argument came across much like "advertising doesn't affect me" but spread across a much wider, unchecked range of people who haven't said one way or the other. Like, of course "people" know about themes like Star Wars or JP generally through the wider impact such films, and not necessarily because of the songs themselves, but OSTs aren't just randomly bought for no apparent reason by a subset of the audience more into their film scores. And this is all before talking about the most blatant marriage of the two in the musical format, itself adapted from stage and opera before it. What I'm saying is that even if "people" don't necessarily care about music on a conscious level, a memorable soundtrack will definitely leave a greater impact than one explicitly designed to disappear as much as they do in Marvel films; personally speaking, that's why I enjoyed the Mad Max: Fury Road OST, whilst completely forgetting that for CA:WS (as per the video example where MM rips off CA).
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Sep 16, 2016 12:31
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K. Waste posted:The best thing Danny Elfman ever composed was either Only a Lad or Dead Man's Party, which is still loving great, but far outstrips his cinematic contributions. Dead Man's Party is cool and I like some of his movie stuff as well, but the Simpsons theme is far and away the most brilliant piece of music he ever recorded. I think the issue is less that people don't care about music in their movies (although there's a little of that) and more that most people have no idea how to talk about music, which is also why music journalism as a whole is such a joke.
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Sep 16, 2016 13:15
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Pirate Jet posted:I would counter with "sheer repetition isn't the way to make a song catchy" but then I wouldn't be able to explain Katy Perry's career Amazing tits
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Sep 16, 2016 13:19
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The theme from The Simpsons is surely Elfman's most recognisable work. What's weird is that Hans ZImmer scored the Simpsons movie.
well why not fucked around with this message at 14:04 on Sep 16, 2016 |
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Sep 16, 2016 13:38
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Zhou really just messed up by putting so much emphasis on 'hummability' in the intro to his video, when he's actually making a bunch of smaller distinct criticisms. With the Marvel films, he's criticizing the overreliance on (expository) dialogue, music that's included 'for the sake of it' (meaning also an ineffective use of silence), and prominent cues that fail to augment the imagery they're accompanying. Both videos definitely identify the same problem, but they don't figure out the cause. With Zhou it's that it's rote, and the Australian guy says it's the fault of introducing a very successful process to synthesize an orchestra, with big limatations that don't exist anymore. They're both technical arguments that get get in the way of Elfman's comments in Zhou's video, the art is eschewed for economy
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Sep 16, 2016 14:15
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In a Newsweek interview, Henry Cavill's manager says that Man of Steel 2 is actively moving along the development track. WB isn't ready to officially announce, but it will probably be around 2020 or 2021. Interesting: Snyder is not attached to direct yet, but it is so early in the process that it doesn't really mean much. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Sep 16, 2016 |
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Sep 16, 2016 14:21
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Maluco Marinero posted:The thing is I'm pretty sure he never asserted that you need to be able to hum the music, people have been extrapolating that. It's about how systemic issues with scoring music prevent the creation of memorable scores. The unique score is treated as an afterthought, not a combined element of the film making/editing process. Yeah but the humming thing is the easy meme to latch on to and basically no one on the Internet engages with criticism deeper than memes anymore.
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Sep 16, 2016 14:31
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Although, even if it's steeped in politic tension, these dudes run it down better https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BP793Rw1cIQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSAF9_ZHjfc
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Sep 16, 2016 14:31
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Maluco Marinero posted:The thing is I'm pretty sure he never asserted that you need to be able to hum the music, people have been extrapolating that. It's about how systemic issues with scoring music prevent the creation of memorable scores. The unique score is treated as an afterthought, not a combined element of the film making/editing process. Well, no, Zhou explicitly interpolates popular, anecdotal perception and memory of music as the bookending framework of his video essay. This isn't negligible - this is essential structure, and it's what's tripping people up. As SMG says, he does make some rather astute technical and historical criticisms, but encapsulates them in an overall thesis that has much more to do with nostalgia, aggressive marketing, parody, and, most importantly, this assertion that the "safe," "inoffensive," and "bland" mediocrity (as opposed to the "emotionally rich" art of filmmaking) is the result of superficial practices; as opposed to the inevitable, predominate product of consumer economy. Basically, because Zhou himself assumes the bland position that music is so "highly subjective," he's forced to wrap his otherwise loosely related technical and historical criticisms in broader sociological criticisms. This framework of anecdotes about people remembering music that was aggressively advertised to them as children becomes justification, when really it's just part of the problem. This cliche about the "emotional richness" of Star Wars or Jurassic Park or whatever. The attempt at artificially reproducing this "emotional richness" of nostalgia is part of the industrial dilemma Zhou faces.
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Sep 16, 2016 14:31
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TetsuoTW posted:Yeah but the humming thing is the easy meme to latch on to and basically no one on the Internet engages with criticism deeper than memes anymore. I don't know that most people did before memes either.
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Sep 16, 2016 14:44
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:Dead Man's Party is cool and I like some of his movie stuff as well, but the Simpsons theme is far and away the most brilliant piece of music he ever recorded. It's Simpsons theme, then the skeleton army battle song from Army of Darkness, then whatever. Oingo Boingo is fine, his scores are fine.
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Sep 16, 2016 14:47
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DeimosRising posted:It's Simpsons theme, then the skeleton army battle song from Army of Darkness, then whatever. Oingo Boingo is fine, his scores are fine. yeah Army of Darkness is probably my favorite film score of his too.
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Sep 16, 2016 14:58
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TetsuoTW posted:Yeah but the humming thing is the easy meme to latch on to and basically no one on the Internet engages with criticism deeper than memes anymore. I actually find myself humming Zimmer Superman theme all the time
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Sep 16, 2016 15:05
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:yeah Army of Darkness is probably my favorite film score of his too. Iirc he didn't actually do the score, just the skeleton army song and some theme concepts, so that probably explains that. The guy who did Evil Dead and Dead by Dawn did most of the score.
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Sep 16, 2016 15:09
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Either way, that skeleton march is badass. I remember using that to score a radio play project I had to do in like seventh or eighth grade, was between that and Thus Spake Zarasthura and was like "nah skeleton march is cooler." I do like a fair amount of Elfman's stuff with Burton and Raimi. It's hard to knock the scores for Batman or Pee Wee's Big Adventure. Uncle Boogeyman fucked around with this message at 15:13 on Sep 16, 2016 |
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Sep 16, 2016 15:10
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K. Waste posted:The attempt at artificially reproducing this "emotional richness" of nostalgia is part of the industrial dilemma Zhou faces. Yep, this I can go for. Clearly there are parts of the argument that are faulty, but it's combined with some harsh truths that demonstrate cinema (as a broader industry) doesn't give enough of a gently caress about it's music as a storytelling & filmmaking device. Even if he bookends it with something a little hyperbolic or inaccurate, it doesn't seem to have sunk the heart of the argument as people are talking about it and looking at the issue further.
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Sep 16, 2016 15:19
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K. Waste posted:Well, no, Zhou explicitly interpolates popular, anecdotal perception and memory of music as the bookending framework of his video essay. This isn't negligible - this is essential structure, and it's what's tripping people up. As SMG says, he does make some rather astute technical and historical criticisms, but encapsulates them in an overall thesis that has much more to do with nostalgia, aggressive marketing, parody, and, most importantly, this assertion that the "safe," "inoffensive," and "bland" mediocrity (as opposed to the "emotionally rich" art of filmmaking) is the result of superficial practices; as opposed to the inevitable, predominate product of consumer economy. Take your own advice and be laconic, my love The Peccadillo fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Sep 16, 2016 |
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Sep 16, 2016 16:27
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My take away is that Zhou is trying to turn his smarty stuff about editing and visual theory into more broad film criticism and failing badly. Honestly the dude sounds out of his depth whenever he's not talking about editing.
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Sep 16, 2016 16:33
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Electromax posted:I don't know that most people did before memes either. Memes existed way before the internet. For as long as we have been, memes were.
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Sep 16, 2016 16:39
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Well not really. Richard Dawkins counted the term in the eighties, and I existed at that time, as did Arpanet.
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Sep 16, 2016 16:41
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DeimosRising posted:Iirc he didn't actually do the score, just the skeleton army song and some theme concepts, so that probably explains that. The guy who did Evil Dead and Dead by Dawn did most of the score. Also the Hercules and Xena TV shows. I could never unhear the connection after I bought the Army of Darkness soundtrack (I bought it specifically for the Elfman track though, that owns bones).
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Sep 16, 2016 16:41
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I can almost guarantee you that if you polled people exiting the theater of a movie they just watched, almost none of them will be able to remember any music from it. That's what I took away from CP's post and I agree. Would you expect people to remember the score to something like a Looney Tunes cartoon? When I think about iconic scores I think Tim Burton's Batman, the OG Superman's, and obviously Star Wars.One connection they all have is that their most iconic themes are playing when nothing's actually happening on screen except maybe some rolling text, so maybe there's something to that. I'm able to recall that I enjoyed the music during the stampede scene in Lion King but I can't remember how it went.
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Sep 16, 2016 17:58
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:I can almost guarantee you that if you polled people exiting the theater of a movie they just watched, almost none of them will be able to remember any music from it. That's what I took away from CP's post and I agree. Would you expect people to remember the score to something like a Looney Tunes cartoon? When I think about iconic scores I think Tim Burton's Batman, the OG Superman's, and obviously Star Wars.One connection they all have is that their most iconic themes are playing when nothing's actually happening on screen except maybe some rolling text, so maybe there's something to that. I'm able to recall that I enjoyed the music during the stampede scene in Lion King but I can't remember how it went. That's a weird example, everyone knows the Looney Tunes theme, and the show was built around setting funny cartoons to musical accompaniment (hence the name, and the names of its sister series, Silly Symphonies and Merrie Melodies). I'm sure lots of people at least remember the arrangements of classical opera and romantic pieces in Looney Tunes shorts. Edit also no kidding all you think of is the themes from major nerd media from when you were a kid I can't imagine why
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Sep 16, 2016 18:06
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I probably only remember Zimmers Superman theme so well because it was on all the trailers, commercials, and marketing, come to think of it. But I'm pretty sure I've only heard Wonder Woman's theme once and it is still stuck in my head.
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Sep 16, 2016 18:11
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I can't hum the theme from the opening scene in BvS where Bruce Wayne looks up and sees Superman fighting Zod but I remember it as being overblown, operatic, and awesome. Very memorable stuff.
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Sep 16, 2016 18:11
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I couldn't hum 99% of the score to 99.5% of the movies I have seen and I would bet most of the world is the same. The only movie scores I can definitely recall are theme songs or certain things (like Star Wars or Jurassic Park) that have been repeated endlessly and are ingrained as part of pop culture. The Prestige is one of my favorite movies of all time and I have seen it a dozen times, but I couldn't identify a single piece of score out of context.
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Sep 16, 2016 18:24
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wrong thread lol
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Sep 16, 2016 18:25
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:My take away is that Zhou is trying to turn his smarty stuff about editing and visual theory into more broad film criticism and failing badly. He post one video every blue moon, and the videos where he's analyzing something he doesn't like are terrible. So much promise in his early videos, but he's basically turned into a glacial AVN.
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Sep 16, 2016 18:36
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DeimosRising posted:Edit also no kidding all you think of is the themes from major nerd media from when you were a kid I can't imagine why I did not come to enjoy any of those movies until the past decade or so. I've honestly never been a fan of Star Wars. I have however played a lot of Star Wars video games so that's where I hear the music. But even then, I couldn't hum a lot of specific tracks. However if I were to hear certain tracks I could identify them as Star Wars tracks. I sat down and thought a bit about my favorite theme and in the end I came up with the intro to Mask of the Phantasm, which also fits my earlier criteria of having the theme play when no action is happening.
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Sep 16, 2016 18:40
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PriorMarcus posted:He post one video every blue moon, and the videos where he's analyzing something he doesn't like are terrible. So much promise in his early videos, but he's basically turned into a glacial AVN.
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Sep 16, 2016 18:47
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CelticPredator posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-YXnfFym7c&t=121s Errr, I wouldn't say that is nearly the same thing as the Psycho shower example, this is just triumphant rear end kicking music played over shots of triumphant rear end kicking (or the team gathering for said rear end-kicking). Although this isn't a knock on Marvel, I don't think there's a lot of room for that type of aural storytelling in super hero media, and I think suspense is uniquely primed for that kind of thing. I guess the best you could do is have a character like Bruce Wayne sitting at his table and use the music to convey what's happening (sad music means he's brooding, tense music means he's getting ready to take action, etc.)
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Sep 16, 2016 18:54
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I'm with you, it's not the same. But that's about the closest thing you'll get to a Marvel film letting the music take over, which is what I thought you were talking about. That and this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7i574Em3IrI I think they really need those moments. The Avengers 360 shot is the closest, but it just doesn't quite hit the landing due to both the sound effects, and that less than a second after the song hits it's final note, they start yapping. No time to take in the moment.
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Sep 16, 2016 20:01
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