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Bobby Deluxe posted:They had a different leader, notably a leader who understood that a coalition would be political suicide and got steamrolled trying to play his options. The could do so, right now. They could walk over to Johnson, shake his hand and suddenly the Tories have a majority again. At any point in time they could suddenly have decided "We're okay with this government and what they want to do!" and just vote for the hardest of Brexits and it would have happened. https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/jo-swinson-rejects-tory-coalition-idea-and-rules-out-scots-indyref2-support-1-4969501 https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17789577.swinson-says-no-second-tory-alliance/ Swinson ruled out a coalition with either party, very clearly. Unless the Tories suddenly stop being the party of Brexit and then every other lib dem that went through coalition the first time has a heart attack and dies, they're not supporting them.
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Sep 26, 2019 17:38
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Necrothatcher posted:I just read an interesting article about how Labour cannot win a majority without taking back Leave-voting constituencies from the Conservatives: Kind of suspected as much; the thinking behind the no-policy policy is entirely based on data from the 2017 election. Some people with unusually good memories may be able to cast their minds back that far, and remember what the political situation was that made it a defensible idea. Of course, if the new plan is to abandon this timeline as doomed and send John McDonnell back to 2017 to pick up a few extra target seats, then everything makes sense.
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Sep 26, 2019 17:38
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Endjinneer posted:If your whole thing is about being a grown up politician that makes the tough decisions, then the tougher the decision the better you are. Bad decisions are the toughest, so making them should be your priority. The ConLib coalition was always bizarre to me. History shows that in these the smaller party gets absolutely hosed at the next election yet Libdems did it anyway. Presumably calculating the sacrifice was worth it for the consessions they will extract. Except the Libdems didn't get any concessions, the DUP got more out the Tories since 2017 than they did. Doing it once was madness, doing it again would be absolute insanity. Which is to say they would absolutely do it.
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Sep 26, 2019 17:38
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Cerebral Bore posted:lol they're not even trying anymore. https://twitter.com/HywelRoberts2/status/1177261656608575488?s=20
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Sep 26, 2019 17:43
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lol John Humphries was accused of bias hundreds of times and each time it was knocked back as nonsense and then the second he wasn't getting paid he came out a massive Brexit loving psycho who accused the BBC of bias because his researchers kept giving him info he didn't like, Andrew Neil sits on the board of the Spectator and has a long history of almost exclusively being a hard right manager of various newspapers and magazines and taking "Speaking fees" from various hard right organisations but his integrity is beyond repute and his twitter doesn't count, Laura keeps using really clumsy language that almost always favours the tories but it's just sexism and antisemitism to question her and her predecessor was the leader of the young conservatives at Oxford at the time of "Hang Mandela" but no, it's this PoC presenter, who when asked by her white cohost agreed with him that "Go back where you came from" is a racist phrase that brings the BBC into disrepute. loving despicable.
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Sep 26, 2019 17:45
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Aramoro posted:The ConLib coalition was always bizarre to me. History shows that in these the smaller party gets absolutely hosed at the next election yet Libdems did it anyway. Presumably calculating the sacrifice was worth it for the consessions they will extract. Except the Libdems didn't get any concessions, the DUP got more out the Tories since 2017 than they did. Pretty much from the moment the Alliance formed until 2010 their single issue was voting reform because that's the only way a third party could make an appreciable dent on the duopoly. Then they took the one time they actually looked like they'd broken the duopoly and pissed it completely down their leg by not even getting their coalition partners to agree not to campaign against them in the AV referendum. How much of this is because the Orange Bookers were enthusiastic partners in the rest of the Cameron project and just plain didn't care about reform, how much is because they genuinely thought that this was the beginning of a new three-party system, and how much is because they have terminal liberal brain and assumed that everyone was going to agree with them and their Very Reasonable Ideas there's no way of knowing, but it's definitely mostly the last one.
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Sep 26, 2019 17:45
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Gonzo McFee posted:lol John Humphries was accused of bias hundreds of times and each time it was knocked back as nonsense and then the second he wasn't getting paid he came out a massive Brexit loving psycho who accused the BBC of bias because his researchers kept giving him info he didn't like, Andrew Neil sits on the board of the Spectator and has a long history of almost exclusively being a hard right manager of various newspapers and magazines and taking "Speaking fees" from various hard right organisations but his integrity is beyond repute and his twitter doesn't count, Laura keeps using really clumsy language that almost always favours the tories but it's just sexism and antisemitism to question her and her predecessor was the leader of the young conservatives at Oxford at the time of "Hang Mandela" but no, it's this PoC presenter, who when asked by her white cohost agreed with him that "Go back where you came from" is a racist phrase that brings the BBC into disrepute. Neill literally wore an Adam Smith Institute tie on air.
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Sep 26, 2019 17:47
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Natural 20 posted:The could do so, right now. They could walk over to Johnson, shake his hand and suddenly the Tories have a majority again. At any point in time they could suddenly have decided "We're okay with this government and what they want to do!" and just vote for the hardest of Brexits and it would have happened. This may come as a shock to you but there's more issues facing this country than loving Brexit.
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Sep 26, 2019 17:53
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https://twitter.com/labfreemvmt/status/1177224892787384321 Interjecting as a forriner, that was an inspiring motion that Labour conference passed and it'd be a shame if it was ignored to death.
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Sep 26, 2019 17:55
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As far as I've seen it was only Diane Abbot talking about the immigration vote at the Labour conference and she isn't the most reliable when it comes to clearly getting across policy. Ultimately until Corbyn says something in regards to this it's best not to get too excited either way.
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Sep 26, 2019 17:58
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Natural 20 posted:I am fine with sitting for another 5 years with a lame duck minority government that can't do anything as long a the Tories don't get a majority. When you see a whole wealth of data and information to confirm that a statement has been true up until that very point, does your brain then escape through your ears after you mutter "must be wrong?"
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Sep 26, 2019 18:02
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Natural 20 posted:The could do so, right now. They could walk over to Johnson, shake his hand and suddenly the Tories have a majority again. At any point in time they could suddenly have decided "We're okay with this government and what they want to do!" and just vote for the hardest of Brexits and it would have happened. Oh poo poo that's what Boris wants isn't it? VONC, drop the DUP, bring the Lib Dems on board for coalition 2, the coalitioning. Exchange no deal brexit for a 10p charge on milk cartons or some poo poo.
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Sep 26, 2019 18:10
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Rarity posted:This may come as a shock to you but there's more issues facing this country than loving Brexit. Yup. None are as important. Economic collapse stops the cash you need to enact social change. Medicines not getting to sick people who can't pay kills sick people who can't pay. Bobby Deluxe posted:As far as I was aware the FTPA prevented people just forming a new government every time the majority happened to dip under the threshold. You need a VONC and then the ruling party has 2 weeks to shore up their support ahead of a revote. Okay look, the Lib Dems haven't decided to bite on VONCing Boris. They robbed him of his working majority by stealing an MP. I suspect it's going to be impossible to convince the thread that the Lib Dems won't jump into bed with the Tories again. But it would be political suicide for them to a far greater extent than betraying their base on tuition fees. If you can't see why they wouldn't go for that purely purely on self interest alone then we live in worlds that will never coincide.
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Sep 26, 2019 18:22
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Bobby Deluxe posted:VONC, drop the DUP, bring the Lib Dems on board for coalition 2, the coalitioning. Exchange no deal brexit for a 10p charge on milk cartons or some poo poo. 
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Sep 26, 2019 18:28
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Natural 20 posted:Okay look, the Lib Dems haven't decided to bite on VONCing Boris. They robbed him of his working majority by stealing an MP. I get what you're trying to say but frankly I feel my "hold your nose" suggestion to an ex-Tory-voter is more palatable than "they're actually good, now, everyone  "
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Sep 26, 2019 18:29
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Natural 20 posted:Yup. What a shocker, the goon stanning for the Lib Dems is pure FBPE. How did we not see this coming? 
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Sep 26, 2019 18:30
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Bobby Deluxe posted:As far as I was aware the FTPA prevented people just forming a new government every time the majority happened to dip under the threshold. You need a VONC and then the ruling party has 2 weeks to shore up their support ahead of a revote. The Lib Dems + current Tories do not have the numbers for a majority.
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Sep 26, 2019 18:31
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Rarity posted:What a shocker, the goon stanning for the Lib Dems is pure FBPE. How did we not see this coming? I mean the alternative presented currently is no deal. You know, the option that the doctors that advised the government on yellowhammer said would literally kill people. If we were talking Remain vs. Customs Union/Norway then I'd agree other issues are more important. But we're talking about whether you vote LD in an LD/Tory marginal.
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Sep 26, 2019 18:39
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I seem to remember the big LD thing in the last coalition was selling their souls for the tuition fee thing. Which they suddenly forgot about as soon as they got a taste of power. Do you thing these libs dems will remember no brexit should they be in that position again?
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Sep 26, 2019 18:43
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Rarity posted:What a shocker, the goon stanning for the Lib Dems is pure FBPE. How did we not see this coming? You seem ill... You seem to be sick. Brexit is very big, very large.
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Sep 26, 2019 18:43
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Ash Crimson posted:You seem ill... You seem to be sick. gently caress off.
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Sep 26, 2019 18:45
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Natural 20 posted:I mean the alternative presented currently is no deal. austerity has killed literally thousands of people and the LDs were happy enough to support that and are on the record as saying they'd do it again
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Sep 26, 2019 18:46
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sebzilla posted:The Lib Dems + current Tories do not have the numbers for a majority. What about the Lib Dems, Tories, CUKTIG (Miwk fringe tendency), Independents and DUP?
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Sep 26, 2019 18:47
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Dead Goon posted:gently caress off. Mate, Brexit could lead to deaths in my family, you gently caress off with this danger-minimising attitude
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Sep 26, 2019 18:49
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OwlFancier posted:Not if they sentence him to a year and a day, or is it two years? There is no constitutional requirement that the PM be an MP.
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Sep 26, 2019 18:49
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Ash Crimson posted:Mate, Brexit could lead to deaths in my family, you gently caress off with this danger-minimising attitude OK why don't you and Ace of Flames can go and have a screaming contest in a cupboard somewhere
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Sep 26, 2019 18:50
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Julio Cruz posted:OK why don't you and Ace of Flames can go and have a screaming contest in a cupboard somewhere two men or women enter tescos carpark at midnight, one man or woman leaves
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Sep 26, 2019 18:52
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ThomasPaine posted:one man or woman leaves no no NO the whole point is neither of them want to leave
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Sep 26, 2019 18:55
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Tesseraction posted:no no NO Lmao
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Sep 26, 2019 18:56
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Ash Crimson posted:Mate, Brexit could lead to deaths in my family, you gently caress off with this danger-minimising attitude As others have said, austerity has already lead to thousands and thousands of deaths. Since 2010 there's 130,000 deaths attributable to cuts in health & social care spending, according to the British Medical Journal, not even touching upon the cuts to the welfare system or other areas. Brexit will be very bad. We all agree on this. But a Member of Parliament is voted in for a 5 year term and Brexit will be solved one way or another well before the end of that time period assuming an election in November. Meanwhile there is a whole host of other issues that matter a great deal to people in far more direct & obvious ways and they will continue to be important long after Brexit is resolved and we've either left or not, with a deal or not. A quick glance at the Liberal Democrats record between 2010 & 2015 is plenty reason to never vote Liberal Democrat again if you are even remotely interested in the wellbeing of the precariat, the working poor, the unemployed or anyone else who isn't a well off oval office. A vote for the Liberal Democrats based on Brexit is full-blown Fubpee behaviour and unless you have the brainworms there is no excuse for being a single issue voter.
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Sep 26, 2019 18:56
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Julio Cruz posted:austerity has killed literally thousands of people and the LDs were happy enough to support that and are on the record as saying they'd do it again Yes and they are objectively wrong. It is a completely consistent stance for me to say Austerity was bad, wrong and anyone who seeks to pursue it again is genuinely wrong, whilst also saying that a no deal Brexit would cause similar if not worse effects. You vote to stop no deal. If you're in an LD/Labour marginal vote Labour. But to inadvertently help a Tory get in because you're concerned about the potential for a Labour vote in that constituency 40 years from now is irresponsible.
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Sep 26, 2019 18:58
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forkboy84 posted:As others have said, austerity has already lead to thousands and thousands of deaths. Since 2010 there's 130,000 deaths attributable to cuts in health & social care spending, according to the British Medical Journal, not even touching upon the cuts to the welfare system or other areas. if you define Brexit narrowly to be only the withdrawal agreement or lack of. but exclude the following negotiations for future trading arrangements. more realistically, Brexit will still be a live issue 5 years from now 😭
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Sep 26, 2019 19:01
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I know I might be out of the loop here but why are the BBC not reporting on the attempted break-in on Jess Phillips' constituency office at all while still leading on Boris Johnson's divisive rhetoric? Literally every other outlet is reporting it but the BBC seem to be actively ignoring it?
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Sep 26, 2019 19:07
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Natural 20 posted:Yes and they are objectively wrong. It is a completely consistent stance for me to say Austerity was bad, wrong and anyone who seeks to pursue it again is genuinely wrong, whilst also saying that a no deal Brexit would cause similar if not worse effects. so vote for the Lib Dems who might kill thousands through austerity but that's fine because they won't kill thousands through No Deal completely consistent, see
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Sep 26, 2019 19:07
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feedmegin posted:There is no constitutional requirement that the PM be an MP. Are you allowed to serve two different concurrent terms at Her Majesty's pleasure? 
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Sep 26, 2019 19:07
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Julio Cruz posted:so vote for the Lib Dems who might kill thousands through austerity but that's fine because they won't kill thousands through No Deal How exactly do you intend to end austerity if we're dealing with the aftermath of a no deal brexit and all the poo poo that comes with it?
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Sep 26, 2019 19:11
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Whimsicalfuckery posted:I know I might be out of the loop here but why are the BBC not reporting on the attempted break-in on Jess Phillips' constituency office at all while still leading on Boris Johnson's divisive rhetoric? Literally every other outlet is reporting it but the BBC seem to be actively ignoring it? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-49845771
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Sep 26, 2019 19:12
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Whimsicalfuckery posted:I know I might be out of the loop here but why are the BBC not reporting on the attempted break-in on Jess Phillips' constituency office at all while still leading on Boris Johnson's divisive rhetoric? Literally every other outlet is reporting it but the BBC seem to be actively ignoring it? The BBC are basically a Tory mouthpiece and the Jess Phillips break-in makes the Tories look bad.
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Sep 26, 2019 19:12
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Bobby Deluxe posted:As far as I was aware the FTPA prevented people just forming a new government every time the majority happened to dip under the threshold. You need a VONC and then the ruling party has 2 weeks to shore up their support ahead of a revote. As I understand it the FTPA means that for an election to be called you have to have either a VONC *or* a two-thirds majority vote... however a parliament can't bind a future parliament so there is nothing to stop parliament now passing a bill that says "The FTPA notwithstanding, we will have a general election" (in better language) and pass it with a simple majority.
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Sep 26, 2019 19:13
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Ahh yeah I see it is there in the local section but on the news they're literally talking about Jess Phillip's question in parliament but just aren't mentioning the attack at all. It seems like it would be a highly relevant thing to mention, I just don't understand why they aren't? I realise this probably is naive and that this might be form for the BBC but it just seems bizarre.
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Sep 26, 2019 19:15
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