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Simply put, if there are so many figures that a tray is even considered necessary, Im not interested. I dont have time to collect and paint 150 - 300 figures for a game. Id rather go play Infinity, with my 8 - 12 figures, or hell, even Deadzone with my small squad. Massive battles, and tons of figures is (in my opinion) a childs wish, something I wanted when I was 13 and just getting into 40k. After painting over a hundred space marines, that poo poo got old and I lost all interest in massive figure count games. On another topic, Dust tactics, has released Dust Battlefield rules, which is basically a Dust Tactics, without the gridded table. I wonder if we can see something like that coming for Deadzone but I doubt it since there is so much focus on the "cube". Basically, this leaves me with hoping Warpath isn't as previously discussed.
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Jun 12, 2014 20:58
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I'm fine with massive battles but not at 28mm. You can have big battles fairly cheaply in 15 or 10mm.
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Jun 12, 2014 21:00
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The odd thing is, I absolutely love Mantic's approach to massed ranks of troops in KoW (instead of removing handfuls of infantry as they take hits, the unit as a whole is removed once a certain threshold is reached), partly because it simplifies handling how units take damage and partly because it allows modelers to get really creative by creating little unit "dioramas". But the idea of movement trays in Warpath just really sounds so bass-ackwards to me. 
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Jun 12, 2014 21:01
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I'm not opposed to them on principle. For instance: The difference is that Dropzone Commander, as pictured, is a 10mm scale wargame. While it is tactical, I am really not sure how well that scales upwards when the models are several times as big but the play area isn't. While DZC is doing pretty okay, it's a harder sell for Warpath. And as much as I like Kings of War and find its unit-based play very tactically satisfying, I don't see its design conceits translating into a more ranged-dominant and vehicle based style of gameplay. But I'm not discounting it. Just sceptical.
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Jun 12, 2014 21:02
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Oh yeah, I didnt mean I dont like any mass battles, just not in 28mm, its too much to paint, way too time consuming and takes way too much space to play, 6mm, 10mm and 15mm are great for mass battles, typically cheap to build an army, and very fast to paint. In 28mm I prefer skirmish, or maybe 20 - 30 figures at most, even that gets a little long in the tooth for gameplay.
LumberingTroll fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Jun 12, 2014 |
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Jun 12, 2014 21:16
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I could see doing unit formations, but not just straight up trays. I don't mind having a tray in some shape that defines some aspect of gameplay, like loose formation vs phalanx or something. If it's just trays with no meaning to the tray, then all you're really saying to me is buy more guys and paint more guys. That said I also don't really know how they would deal with those formations if you had to move from one formation to another. I don't mind group movement by tray offensive on principle, I just want there to be a reason I'm doing it other than aesthetics or sales. And really all that stems from a heavy dislike of moving 10-man squads 8 inches individually trying to keep the same spacing.
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Jun 12, 2014 21:37
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It's weird to me, because my local club seem pretty interested in the trays/unit-basing idea - they aren't 40k players, though, and that might make a difference.
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Jun 13, 2014 00:54
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It would be fantastic if they produced multi-based Warpath miniatures in 6mm. Some might even consider it epic.
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Jun 13, 2014 01:01
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This make me think of a compromise where you'd have trays for conveniently moving things around as a coherent unit, but you could get off the tray (out of formation) for things like navigating complex terrain or charging. And whether you were in formation or not would have some sort of minor mechanical effect. It's just kind of spitballing. I'm not nearly as attracted to the idea of Warpath as I am to KoW.
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Jun 13, 2014 01:02
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Played another game of Deadzone last night, this time as Rebels. Is it just me, or are Rebels basically crap? I got completely steamrolled by Enforcers. I had some bad rolls and managed to get caught out in the open some, but the 5+'s were killing me on just about everything. That and no AP1 guns. Even my Fighting Turtle Monster got killed.
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Jun 13, 2014 15:47
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Speaking of Epic, anyone taken part in a demo/playtest of Polyversal? Looks nice, and I am definitely interested, but info is at a premium so far.
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Jun 13, 2014 16:01
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SquadronROE posted:Played another game of Deadzone last night, this time as Rebels. Is it just me, or are Rebels basically crap? I got completely steamrolled by Enforcers. I had some bad rolls and managed to get caught out in the open some, but the 5+'s were killing me on just about everything. That and no AP1 guns. Even my Fighting Turtle Monster got killed. Honestly I think its you, I've played against Rebs as Enforcers, and I won, but only by 1 point. They are basically immune to suppression fire because of their deck. and that teleporting turtle can be devastating if it teleports and attacks in the same turn, it killed my Enforcer Captain in one hit doing that combined with an attack card. Don't neglect your cards, they are powerful.
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Jun 13, 2014 17:17
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Found a guy who has some awesome scenery built from when he used to play 40k, is there an easy way to convert deadzone movement to playing without the grids?
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Jun 13, 2014 17:46
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Fenarisk posted:Found a guy who has some awesome scenery built from when he used to play 40k, is there an easy way to convert deadzone movement to playing without the grids? Not really, its way more than movement, all of the weapons use it, and they have a strong focus on "the cube" suppression fire for example affects everything in a 3x3x3 inch cube.
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Jun 13, 2014 17:48
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You could try changing the cube size to fit the terrain
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Jun 13, 2014 18:14
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If it's removable scenery rather than complete boards, you could lay down plastic with the grid printed on it and just reasonably estimate which cube each section of the scenery is in. I've got some really cool MDF stuff designed for Infinity that will work a treat for Deadzone scattered inside or across cubes, I only need to put it on a board or mat with the 3 inch grid, and then use the Battlezones alongside or a simple foot long ruler for measuring vertical distances. NTRabbit fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Jun 13, 2014 |
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Jun 13, 2014 18:19
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I dunno, if you limited to 3" movement then it might work alright. For blaze away just have it affect all models within 1.5" which should give the same effect. Just be aware that it's a bit of a hack so things might not work *perfectly*.
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Jun 13, 2014 19:23
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Do we think dkh4 will use square or circular bases?
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Jun 14, 2014 14:43
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LumberingTroll posted:Honestly I think its you, I've played against Rebs as Enforcers, and I won, but only by 1 point. They are basically immune to suppression fire because of their deck. and that teleporting turtle can be devastating if it teleports and attacks in the same turn, it killed my Enforcer Captain in one hit doing that combined with an attack card. It could be that my cards were bad too. I simply didn't get much that was terribly useful. I'll try playing as them again. We also didn't play with a whole lot of terrain, so that really helped out the Enforcers.
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Jun 14, 2014 14:55
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I don't think it's just you. Rebs were designed to have a sharp learning curve and rely on their cards and missions but I'm starting to think it's too much.
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Jun 14, 2014 16:05
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Phoon posted:Do we think dkh4 will use square or circular bases? Pretty sure it'll either be renedra squares, or totally integral squares like all my Hero Quest guys
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Jun 14, 2014 16:09
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NTRabbit posted:Pretty sure it'll either be renedra squares, or totally integral squares like all my Hero Quest guys Given their shift to preassembled with DBX for the boardgame market, I'm expecting some sort of integral base, even if it's just preglued like the Loka ones
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Jun 14, 2014 16:19
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Daedleh posted:I don't think it's just you. Rebs were designed to have a sharp learning curve and rely on their cards and missions but I'm starting to think it's too much. It's always best, in balancing, to assume every player is equally skilled. In this case, a player with an army that "needs a lot of skill" (steep learning curve, reliance on tactical considerations outside the models, etc) is probably going to do badly against a player who is just as good but has a less punishing hill to climb at all levels of play. It doesn't help when Rebs rely more on luck of the draw, either. Luck is the single worst thing to tactically plan for.
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Jun 14, 2014 18:19
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Yeah I hate randomness in competitive games unless the game is designed around that randomness. Dreadball, for example, I know has special rules for rolling doubles and such, and there's a card mechanic and all kinds of poo poo, but the game is designed for spectacular poo poo to happen based on that randomness.
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Jun 14, 2014 18:23
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I can't help but notice that there are only four lists available right now for Warpath. It's cool and all that they have squats and space skaven, but what's the future look like for the game at the moment?
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Jun 15, 2014 08:11
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Atlas Hugged posted:I can't help but notice that there are only four lists available right now for Warpath. It's cool and all that they have squats and space skaven, but what's the future look like for the game at the moment? From interviews, the kickstarter they plan to do is going to fully equip with hard plastic troops and vehicles all four of the current armies. After that, I think they're still considering splitting the Enforcers out of the Corporation army into their own faction, they have the Asterians, Rebs and Plague from Deadzone to be expanded out into full armies - and with the Plague elites there, all you need is a few boxes of the upcoming plague zombies and an army list to get going with them. After that, they just added a bunch of races to the fluff via Dreadball Xtreme, who coul be part of the rebs, or make their own full factions. Should be noted the shortest term of all this is the Kickstarter due next year, which everyone is hoping will fund so well it does the first 4 complete factions and then manages to add at least another two more. Everything else is a long term project.
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Jun 15, 2014 08:26
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Just googled the Asterians and they have the look I want. Guess I'll be waiting.
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Jun 15, 2014 08:38
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Atlas Hugged posted:Just googled the Asterians and they have the look I want. Guess I'll be waiting. Pretty sure Asterians and Rebs will be armies 5 and 6. In any event, Mantic releases the army list on their site for you to try out and give feedback on long before they get the plastic done, so you'll be able to try it with proxies soon enough.
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Jun 15, 2014 08:42
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Plague will bring it up to 7 races (WP2.0 alpha list here). I suspect they'll be aiming for 8 races altogether but not sure what the eighth will be. They've obviously got a lot of them designed for Dreadball already so it'll likely be one of those padded out into a full faction. I've taken screenshots of the discussion around multibasing in Warpath and passed them onto the design team as feedback on the concept. Can I also ask what peoples opinions are on the idea of a lack of casualty removal ala WP1 and KoW? Daedleh fucked around with this message at 13:10 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 13:07
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It's tricky. Unit size is going to affect it, too. If I shoot a space-bazooka into a pack of 50 Plague zombies and 'nothing' happens (except some wound markers), it gives the tactile feedback that this is an unstoppable horde, our weapons are useless! But if putting that same shot into a 5 Corporation marines yields the same feedback? In the absence of justification, we're left with the disjointed feeling this bazooka sucks. You want that feeling in fantasy, because nearly everything you fight is fantastically tough or numerous, and there are fewer bazooka-equivalents. If wounds / suppression make a big difference in the game, that may help. Otherwise weapons are going to feel 'soft' and without consequence. But if you go too far in the other direction, you get swingy rocket-tag. You could compromise on the granularity of damage, with maybe three-per-based destroyable elements and a single-based leader? That way you could kill off three guys at a time, but unless three people's worth of damage happens you just place wound / suppression tokens. A unit's fighting effectiveness would also degrade with damage - which is arguably more important. One of the biggest complaints against Epic Armageddon was that shooting felt generic, since each battlegroup pooled their weapons' values into a firepower rating (instead of rolling dozens of individual weapons). And this is a totally appropriate way of doing things at that scale, but people still wanted to know which tank gave the killing blow? Was that officer killed by a laser or an explosion? People had 28mm expectations for a 6mm game, and it was an anchor around Armageddon's neck throughout it's short lifespan. This is a 10mm mechanic for a 28mm game. Flames of War (15mm) splits a squad over two bases, with a platoon being made of several squads. In 28mm, it might make sense to parcel a 12-man squad out over three or four bases, but it feels like you're just multi-basing because you're married to the idea and need to shoehorn it in. Unless it substantially improves play speed or makes things dramatically more fun, people aren't going to touch it. Nobody is going to commit hundreds of figures to a weird basing scheme, especially when they'd become unsuitable for Deadzone / Tomorrow's War / Infinity / Necromunda / etc.
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Jun 15, 2014 14:19
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Having no casualty removal would remove that cinemtic last man standing feel as your squads get whittled away. Getting down to one guy and then watching him go on a spree before being brought down is awesome, and just doesn't feel the same when it's a block of guys who all stay there for 3 turns, and then simultaneously vanish once they hit the wound counter limit. I agree, it's a mechanic for multibased units, but multibasing is not an appropriate method for a 28mm scifi game.
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Jun 15, 2014 14:26
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I like casualty removal, from a fun aspect. It's neat seeing squads shrink as they die! I'd also prefer not to have movement trays, to allow for individual placement to matter.
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Jun 15, 2014 14:47
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Depends on the abstraction, again. If there are movement trays then yeah, whatever, nerve damage. It's already a huge abstraction anyway. If it's individual models, why are we moving individual models if we're not using individual models? That was one of the disconnects with 1.0, as much as I loved how nice and quick it was. Of course there's no reason why you can't have your cake and eat it. Maybe do unit-based shooting where you represent Nerve damage (or whatever attrition mechanic you want) with cas removal, which outright reduces the unit's footprint on the table which can have knock-on effects on tactics. That's simple enough.
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Jun 15, 2014 14:52
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How do they plan to justify trays when the game is designed to be used with their plastic terrain?  Fit trays in that. Seriously. I see no way to marry trays with their terrain ideas.
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Jun 15, 2014 15:09
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Daedleh posted:I've taken screenshots of the discussion around multibasing in Warpath and passed them onto the design team as feedback on the concept. Can I also ask what peoples opinions are on the idea of a lack of casualty removal ala WP1 and KoW? If you'r not dealing with a ton of models, there is no reason not to have casualty removal. If there are a ton of models you should be playing fantasy regiments, or a smaller scale. If I have to buy, assemble, and paint 50+ 28mm figures for a game of WP3, I'm not interested. Especially if I can't just use the same figures from Deadzone. No casualty removal works fine in KoW. It keeps the gameplay moving fast. But I don't want WP3 to be KoW with a different coat of paint. signalnoise posted:How do they plan to justify trays when the game is designed to be used with their plastic terrain? War40k where you have 6 terrain elements on the table, and its more about dice rolls than tactics and planning. You can't have a skirmish game with out a lot of small terrain, and LoS breaking elements. Formation trays, and mass battles are not skirmish games. Proper skirmish games would be things like; Necromunda, Freebooters, Warmachine (at low to mid point range), Mordheim, Infinity, Anima Tactics, Carnivale, Wulsung and many others. These all use a lot of terrain, and individually based figures. LumberingTroll fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 17:29
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LumberingTroll posted:War40k where you have 6 terrain elements on the table, and its more about dice rolls than tactics and planning. You can't have a skirmish game with out a lot of small terrain, and LoS breaking elements. Formation trays, and mass battles are not skirmish games. So they want you to use less terrain in the bigger game, yet in the smaller game the size of the board is very limited. What I'm saying is, from a business standpoint, they'd want people to buy these 100 dollar sets of terrain, right? And then use it for what? Simultaneous games? Taller buildings, I suppose?
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Jun 15, 2014 18:04
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signalnoise posted:So they want you to use less terrain in the bigger game, yet in the smaller game the size of the board is very limited. What I'm saying is, from a business standpoint, they'd want people to buy these 100 dollar sets of terrain, right? And then use it for what? Simultaneous games? Taller buildings, I suppose? Thats part of my problem with the direction WP3 is going. It's disjointed from everything else they have established for the sci-fi version of their games. Just because a mechanic works well in one game does not mean that it needs to be included in all of their games. What works for KoW, does not mean it works for WP3. The battlezone terrain were designed for use in as many games as possible, they have already said this, they count on games-workshop customers buying their terrain, same can be said for Infinity customers and any other sci-fi game really. My biggest issue is that Ronnie seems to like a mechanic so thinks it needs to be in everything, this is a bad way to design games. I almost feel like Mantic has too many directions its trying to go at the same time with such a small company. Kings of War Dwarf Kings hold Warpath Deadzone Project Pandora Dreadball Mars Attacks Battlezones Terrain That's eight specific product lines. some are interchangeable, some are not, and its spread over two settings. Some of the products share mechanics.
If all of these games / products get too similar in mechanics, whats the point? I really like Mantic, but the direction things seem to be going makes me worry.
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Jun 15, 2014 20:36
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Put simply, Warpath needs to basically be a better version of Warhammer 40k, as Kings of War seems to be a better version of WHFB.
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Jun 15, 2014 22:07
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Sydney Bottocks posted:Put simply, Warpath needs to basically be a better version of Warhammer 40k, as Kings of War seems to be a better version of WHFB. Exactly. This is precisely what I want from Warpath. Bonus points if I get not-Tau as a faction so I can use my Crisis suits and whatnot. 
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Jun 16, 2014 12:31
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Esser-Z posted:Exactly. This is precisely what I want from Warpath. Bonus points if I get not-Tau as a faction so I can use my Crisis suits and whatnot. Asterian troops are mostly Cyphers, which are halfway between a Dreadnought and a Wraithlord in fluff terms, but physically look like skinny, pointy robits.  I wouldn't have a problem with using fire warriors as Cyphers, and Ethereals as the actual rare Asterians. Not sure what else they have Crisis suit sized in the works though.
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Jun 16, 2014 12:47
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