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Reading Winter's Heart and lolling hard at now Mat having to somehow get himself out of the city and rescue 3 Aes Sedai from the city of Ebou Dar as well. Not sure how he's going to pull that off. Mat has really terrible luck some times. Winters Heart is good so far except for the Perrin and Faile stuff but there hasn't been a Perrin or Faile chapter for a long time its all focused on Mat so that's good.
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Dec 13, 2021 20:30
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El Grillo posted:The showrunners and Brandon Sanderson have literally gone out of their way multiple times to say that it's not intended to be a very faithful adaptation. Okay but like Dumais Wells is not a thing that's going to get cut. They aren't cutting Callandor or the access keys (and the cleansing). Where they get found, what sequence things happen in I just don't find to be a "massive change" that alters the outcome or the plotting. We didn't meet Elayne and the Andoran royal court this season...okay seems like we will next season. They aren't going to just excise them though. Not explicitly faithful doesn't mean they're going to adjust the underlying major beats, actions, events etc that define the story. This isn't going to be some anime filler arc where the characters are doing an entire separate plot for a chunk of the run time and they invent some new villain that didn't exist. I won't be surprised if things (by necessity) need to be condensed/combined, but again I can't see them going to things that fundamentally break the narrative by excising/adding stuff. Things like having 8 or 9 forsaken instead of 13 is mostly mechanical given there are a few of them that do very little or could easily be combined so their related roles would make sense. Lanfear isn't suddenly going to be gone, maybe she does some things another cut Forsaken does, but the big picture stuff I don't see them loving with so much it won't be recognizable. People are mad about a character episode around Stepan when its world building that shows what would otherwise have been a very annoying overly wrought exposition dump. It's TV not a book, that kind of thing folks have to square themselves with being okay as an "addition" even if it comes at the "expense" of other character building opportunities (for folks who will get plenty of time to flesh those things out). The Notorious ZSB fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 13, 2021 20:30
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i also think it's mischaracterizing it a bit to say they said 'it's not meant to be a faithful adaptation' when the reality is they said that it's going to be a little different and you should view it as another telling of the same story cutting out 50 internal monologues about how fat innkeepers are during rand and mat's journey early on isn't some grand departure, it's just being sane for the purposes of tv production
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Dec 13, 2021 20:34
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I do hope that Jeff Bezos, the coward, gives them 10 or 12 episodes for seasons 3+. They've done a really good job so far, IMO, but extra time would be so welcome.
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Dec 13, 2021 20:34
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I honestly wonder how graphic they're going to be in the show because Dumais Well is super graphic in its description of what happens when Ashaman cut loose on a army. I wonder if they'll actually show people being exploded.
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Dec 13, 2021 20:34
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Hollismason posted:I honestly wonder how graphic they're going to be in the show because Dumais Well is super graphic in its description of what happens when Ashaman cut loose on a army. I wonder if they'll actually show people being exploded. they showed that trolloc getting pulped up by moiraine in the winternight encounter so we might get some gnarly shots if they're willing to do the same with people
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Dec 13, 2021 20:35
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Basically everyone will have a different definition of what constitutes a "very faithful" adaptation  I like Sanderson's phrasing of it's a different turning of the wheel. It's still the same story we've all read, just things are a little different. Like swearing arbitrary oaths on the Rod, or needing to channel to open the Ways. The Dragon is still the Dragon, the Black sisters will still be black etc.
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Dec 13, 2021 20:37
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As a book reader I'm quite happy not only with the changes themselves as an adaptation, but with the fact that is being changed itself. I love that despite knowing the books insanely well, I can't predict at all the specific plot beats. I love that I can't know for sure what characters are gonna be in. I love that I dont know how the characters will solve the problems facing them. It's like I get the best of two worlds - I can watch and anticipate seeing the world and events on screen, but I also get to be surprised by new content. Sure there are changes I'm not a huge fan of. And there are some questions being raised that I dont think are being answered well. But I'd rather have this than a faithful adaptation that I knew basically what was going to happen each week.
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Dec 13, 2021 20:45
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El Grillo posted:
Yeah when you buy a brand new signed copy of a book the author probably didn’t sign a truckload of books, he signed a big stack of front pages that were subsequently swapped into the printed books during binding.
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Dec 13, 2021 20:46
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unrelated to this riveting discussion, can anyone remind me: *was* there a reason why Liah went off and got herself lost in Aridhol? And how did she just kind of hang out surviving until the end of crown of swords?
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Dec 13, 2021 20:48
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:The fact that it requires channelling to open is an unnecessary and baffling change given that the fact that waygates are the only method of rapid transit open to non-channellers is going to be a major plotploint multiple times going forward in the books. it's also completely unnecessary; they just did it because they thought it looked cool. It's possible that the Aes Sedai removed the key from that waygate due to its proximity to the city if they knew of a weave to open them in order to prevent others from fast traveling onto their doorstop without their assistance. This assumes that there's still a way to open them without the One Power, which I HAVE to assume there is, in order for the Ogrier to be able to use them.
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Dec 13, 2021 20:48
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silvergoose posted:unrelated to this riveting discussion, can anyone remind me: *was* there a reason why Liah went off and got herself lost in Aridhol? And how did she just kind of hang out surviving until the end of crown of swords? She got cut off from everyone else by Mashadar (the killer fog version) and couldn't make it back to the rest of the group before they had to Travel out or get eaten themselves. After that she was infected by evil sort of like Mat was with the dagger and spent the rest of the time going insane until Rand showed up again and accidentally balefired her.
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Dec 13, 2021 20:56
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jng2058 posted:She got cut off from everyone else by Mashadar (the killer fog version) and couldn't make it back to the rest of the group before they had to Travel out or get eaten themselves. After that she was infected by evil sort of like Mat was with the dagger and spent the rest of the time going insane until Rand showed up again and accidentally balefired her. Deliberately, but okay, yeah that all makes sense. Callback to exactly how things played out in book 1, more or less, except she stuck around instead of escaping.
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Dec 13, 2021 20:57
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every andoran royal and caemlyn too could be cut without losing anything important to the story though rand dropping to the garden and the following scene in the throne room would have made for good tv
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Dec 13, 2021 21:10
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ChubbyChecker posted:every andoran royal and caemlyn too could be cut without losing anything important to the story Good callback to later too, when Mat does the same thing to break in and talk to Elayne.
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Dec 13, 2021 21:27
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Nitrousoxide posted:It's possible that the Aes Sedai removed the key from that waygate due to its proximity to the city if they knew of a weave to open them in order to prevent others from fast traveling onto their doorstop without their assistance. This assumes that there's still a way to open them without the One Power, which I HAVE to assume there is, in order for the Ogrier to be able to use them. i feel like there's a decent chance of us even getting an explanation about this stuff starting in next episode
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Dec 13, 2021 21:30
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Gully Foyle posted:As a book reader I'm quite happy not only with the changes themselves as an adaptation, but with the fact that is being changed itself. Or another way I'd look at it would be like any dramatization of historical events. Any time I watch a biopic or history film or something, there are things moved around to make for a better story, especially for the medium. There will always be a "Historical Accuracy" section on the Wikipedia article, where you learn something like "He didn't join the army the day after his wife died as depicted in the film, in fact almost three years elapsed between her death and his enlistment, and he is reported to have had at least one romantic engagement in the interim" and stuff like that that ultimately doesn't matter, and especially won't matter when you're telling the same story again 100 years later.
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Dec 13, 2021 21:33
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The Notorious ZSB posted:Massive changes aren't happening, everything thus far has been contextual/mechanical to help show viewers alone grasp the setting. (prime characters aren't getting cut, key players might be combined but their plot threads aren't going away). I do think there are certain things that give me pause about how well the creators are gonna tackle the rest of the show though. Like I saw a bit of that 5th episode behind the scenes, and Rafe was like we need sad warder to get the warder Aes Sedai connection (and I guess set something up that only occur 5 seasons from now?), but honestly, that was flabby as hell. A better writer would have winnowed that down. The vamping of the violence and misery isn't exactly necessary either, but seems to be a go to move for the writers. Otoh the politicking and emphasis on FEEEELINGS seems pretty WOT to me, so I'm eager to see how the 2nd season goes. Hopefully good!
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Dec 13, 2021 21:35
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ChubbyChecker posted:every andoran royal and caemlyn too could be cut without losing anything important to the story Part one is mostly true, part two is 100% true Morgase is kinda important, but all the rest that occupies the Andor civil war story later? Could be anyone, no one you'd remember anyway. I really do hope they figure out some way to recreate or capture the garden sequence even if it's relocated to Tar Valon or something for how he meets and gets all swoony about Elayne because it really does check a lot of the fantasy epic TV sequences opportunities from the first book. The Notorious ZSB fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 13, 2021 21:36
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ChubbyChecker posted:every andoran royal and caemlyn too could be cut without losing anything important to the story I imagine we'll still get a version of that. In S2 it's still plausible that Rand ends up in Camelyn. TV wise it could be more dramatic to know Rand is the DR and have another fierce Red after him, but having Elayne intervene. That is unless the show runners do what a lot of people here seem to want, which is cut out any characters and actions that have bad intentions, because surely we can have character growth and conflict if no one does anything evil or grey area sketchy.
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Dec 13, 2021 21:39
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The Notorious ZSB posted:People are mad about a character episode around Stepan when its world building that shows what would otherwise have been a very annoying overly wrought exposition dump. It's TV not a book, that kind of thing folks have to square themselves with being okay as an "addition" even if it comes at the "expense" of other character building opportunities (for folks who will get plenty of time to flesh those things out). "Warders get suicidal after their Aes Sedai die." That's it. That's what we learned. Everything was mechanics leading to that point, which could have been condensed to that line.
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Dec 13, 2021 21:39
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Shageletic posted:"Warders get suicidal after their Aes Sedai die." Are you involved in TV production and creation?
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Dec 13, 2021 21:42
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How are u posted:Are you involved in TV production and creation? No, why?
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Dec 13, 2021 21:43
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Shageletic posted:"Warders get suicidal after their Aes Sedai die." That is desperately boring and while it technically accomplishes the goal, leaves really nothing for folks to engage with or be attached to. Shageletic posted:A better writer would have winnowed that down. First season setup etc, it maybe could have but again I'm not bothered by the idea that Rafe felt it was important to explicitly show how the warder/aes sedai relationship works early on so that the stakes for characters we care about later are really clear instead of having some surprise issue of warder depression becoming a point. We need to actually care about these things and having folks non-challantly say them doesn't make for good TV. Building a sequence that shows this and provides time for us to learn about Lan & Moiraine is good imo. I too am already excited for a second season where I hope they continue to refine the writing etc as they get a grasp for what works well.
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Dec 13, 2021 21:43
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Shageletic posted:"Warders get suicidal after their Aes Sedai die." We could've had Caemlyn if only Judkins knew 
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Dec 13, 2021 21:49
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Nitrousoxide posted:It's possible that the Aes Sedai removed the key from that waygate due to its proximity to the city if they knew of a weave to open them in order to prevent others from fast traveling onto their doorstop without their assistance. This assumes that there's still a way to open them without the One Power, which I HAVE to assume there is, in order for the Ogrier to be able to use them. Or the people who made the show could have just had Loial open the gate, like he does in the book. That's why Morraine said she went and got him in the show, after all. Then you don't need to waste time on subsequent convoluted explanations about how there are multiple ways to open gates, or creating channellers where no channellers were before to advance the plot. Just have Loial open the gate. It's actually better, because it advances Loial's characterization as it moves the plot forward; we already knew Morraine can channel, but now we know that Ogier and Gateways go together. This is the opposite of a change made to streamline things for TV; it's a change that makes things more complicated, to no purpose. It's a gently caress-up, pure and simple. People in this thread need to get less defensive and admit when the showrunners gently caress up, because they are going to gently caress up. Old Kentucky Shark fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 13, 2021 21:52
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Shageletic posted:"Warders get suicidal after their Aes Sedai die." Ah, a fan of the “tell, don’t show” school of film and TV I see. Old Kentucky Shark posted:Or the people who made the show could have just had Loial open the gate, like he does in the book. That's why Morraine said she went and got him in the show, after all. Then you don't need to waste time on subsequent convoluted explanations about how there are multiple ways to open gates, or creating channellers where no channellers were before to advance the plot. Just have Loial open the gate. Moraine is the one to open the gate in Camlin in the book. Loial just helps them find it and navigate the ways.
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Dec 13, 2021 21:53
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The Notorious ZSB posted:I really do hope they figure out some way to recreate or capture the garden sequence even if it's relocated to Tar Valon or something for how he meets and gets all swoony about Elayne because it really does check a lot of the fantasy epic TV sequences opportunities from the first book. Totally agreed on this. It's pretty much the only cut that I really don't like. Hopefully they revisit it, as it's a good sequence.
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Dec 13, 2021 21:54
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They should just run a Star-Wars-style scroll between scenes describing background information and other events that have happened.
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Dec 13, 2021 21:55
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Shageletic posted:No, why? You seemed to be speaking from a point of authority on the matter so I figured you might be.
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Dec 13, 2021 21:56
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The whole series could be condensed down to "Rand saves the world" there look how much money I saved everybody
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Dec 13, 2021 21:57
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The Notorious ZSB posted:I really do hope they figure out some way to recreate or capture the garden sequence even if it's relocated to Tar Valon or something for how he meets and gets all swoony about Elayne because it really does check a lot of the fantasy epic TV sequences opportunities from the first book. When they are chasing fain, they go through caemlyn. Old Kentucky Shark posted:That's why Morraine said she went and got him in the show You're letting "The wheel has presented us with a crisis, and possibly a way to surmount it" do a lot of work here. CainFortea fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 13, 2021 21:59
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ChubbyChecker posted:
Shageletic posted:I do think there are certain things that give me pause about how well the creators are gonna tackle the rest of the show though. Like I saw a bit of that 5th episode behind the scenes, and Rafe was like we need sad warder to get the warder Aes Sedai connection (and I guess set something up that only occur 5 seasons from now?), but honestly, that was flabby as hell. A better writer would have winnowed that down. Apparently the problem here was down to the problems of hiring actors. Issue with hiring actors is you have to give them a certain amount of screen time to make it worth their while, and you have to do that every season you sign them for, or it isn't fair to them and they'll jump ship to some other series that'll pay them more for more episodes / more screen time. So you hire a guy to be Suicidal Warder, and that actor is actually a big name in Europe, you have to give him a minimum amount of screen time. Ditto Alvaro Morte for Logain. And you don't hire an actor for one cameo in one season and then have them be major charcter two seasons later, so you don't hire Elayne in season 1, you wait till everyone's at the Tower and then you introduce her there when she can have multiple episodes of screen time. Etc.
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Dec 13, 2021 22:02
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Dingleberry2 posted:I imagine we'll still get a version of that. In S2 it's still plausible that Rand ends up in Camelyn. TV wise it could be more dramatic to know Rand is the DR and have another fierce Red after him, but having Elayne intervene. This is peak "making up a guy to get mad at"
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Dec 13, 2021 22:02
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Data Graham posted:The whole series could be condensed down to "Rand saves the world" there look how much money I saved everybody that's the third act the first one is rand being a normal farm boy who gets ripped out from his normal life and the second act is him facing obstacles until at his lowest point he has an epiphany and starts acting responsibly everything else is extra Hieronymous Alloy posted:Apparently the problem here was down to the problems of hiring actors. Issue with hiring actors is you have to give them a certain amount of screen time to make it worth their while, and you have to do that every season you sign them for, or it isn't fair to them and they'll jump ship to some other series that'll pay them more for more episodes / more screen time. they can change actors like they did with mat
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Dec 13, 2021 22:37
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ChubbyChecker posted:
It's amazing that TV productions don't this all the time. Clearly it is such a simple thing, and nobody ever even notices or cares. I can't believe it doesn't happen on every TV program. They're all needlessly putting restrictions on themselves. Wild.
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Dec 13, 2021 22:40
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Wait I changed my mind Billy Zane for Demandred. That way we get the sick Logain showdown with both of them at full scenery-chewing mode
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Dec 13, 2021 22:40
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How are u posted:It's amazing that TV productions don't this all the time. Clearly it is such a simple thing, and nobody ever even notices or cares. I can't believe it doesn't happen on every TV program. They're all needlessly putting restrictions on themselves. Wild. they do change actors all the time
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Dec 13, 2021 22:41
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Data Graham posted:stuff like that that ultimately doesn't matter, and especially won't matter when you're telling the same story again 100 years later. It's almost like one of the themes of Wheel of Time is how stories change in the retelling of them 
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Dec 13, 2021 22:44
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ChubbyChecker posted:they do change actors all the time oh, well that settles it
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Dec 13, 2021 22:45
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