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It's pretty hilarious that people think even most meat produced in first world countries is produced "ethically" and "without suffering."
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Nov 1, 2018 15:25
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zapplez posted:what in the gently caress
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Nov 1, 2018 15:58
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Wow this thread took a dive. I eat meat (Hell I had a gyro from halal guys for lunch) and I'm more than willing to admit that 99.9% of the animals we raise for meat in the world is raised in an unsustainable and inhumane way and that a grain/veggie/fruit/plant based is better for human health and much better for the environment. In fact, we may have no choice BUT to go to a mostly plant-based diet if we are to not all die from climate change. And again, I say that as someone who eats a lot of meat (mostly chicken and fish that i cook at home..but still its meat) but even I'm willing to put aside my pride and admit that vegetarianism/veganism is better.
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Nov 1, 2018 20:39
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:It's pretty hilarious that people think even most meat produced in first world countries is produced "ethically" and "without suffering."
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Nov 2, 2018 07:47
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Honestly, I'd rate the suffering for most fruit and veg as worse, as it is the suffering of sapient human beings rather than dumb animals, but that's just me.
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Nov 2, 2018 08:39
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Who do you think works in meat agriculture? Wealthy philosopher-farmers?
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Nov 2, 2018 15:21
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Who do you think works in meat agriculture? Wealthy philosopher-farmers?
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Nov 2, 2018 15:34
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Solaris 2.0 posted:Wow this thread took a dive. So, why don't you take the step and try to eat plant-based and or go fully vegan? Just curious if you have that on your conscious all the time.
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Nov 5, 2018 22:56
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redeyes posted:What a fun bunch of vegans. says the brony
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Nov 5, 2018 22:59
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von Braun posted:So, why don't you take the step and try to eat plant-based and or go fully vegan? Just curious if you have that on your conscious all the time. Personally I think eating meat is pretty inexcusable from a moral perspective, both because of the unnecessary suffering of countless sentient* beings and also because of the hilariously irresponsible destruction of the planet's environment that it is responsible for, but I still eat meat anyways. Meat's pretty good, and individual choice has absolutely no real effect on what happens in the world. Ideally, the world's demand for animal protein would be met with insects, and raising mammals for meat would be outlawed, but that's never going to happen and it doesn't matter what I do either way, so whatever. *Anyone planning on responding to this should look up the difference between sentient and sapient first, please.
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Nov 6, 2018 01:16
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and that is why I don't vote!
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Nov 6, 2018 04:17
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Liquid Communism posted:I'm not seeing the moral difference between raising an animal to eat, and raising an animal's cells to eat, myself, but whatever suits their personal ethics and gets them their tendies.
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Nov 6, 2018 04:21
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ChairMaster posted:Personally I think eating meat is pretty inexcusable from a moral perspective, both because of the unnecessary suffering of countless sentient* beings and also because of the hilariously irresponsible destruction of the planet's environment that it is responsible for, but I still eat meat anyways. Meat's pretty good, and individual choice has absolutely no real effect on what happens in the world. Ideally, the world's demand for animal protein would be met with insects, and raising mammals for meat would be outlawed, but that's never going to happen and it doesn't matter what I do either way, so whatever. I agree with everything of what you are saying, but personally I can't stomach eating animal products. Sometimes I think what's even the point of trying and just eat like everyone else since I don't care, the environment is going to go to poo poo in a few years anywhere, but eh, it's disgusting for all those very reasons.
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Nov 6, 2018 17:37
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ChairMaster posted:Most guys have their masculinity wrapped up in how much meat they eat, too. It's super pathetic. Look at all of the Youtube Channel EpicMealTime. More meat=more manly
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Nov 20, 2018 12:31
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ChairMaster posted:Personally I think eating meat is pretty inexcusable from a moral perspective, both because of the unnecessary suffering of countless sentient* beings Depending on what meat you eat from where, you could make a strong argument that the typical cow from an organic and sustainable beef ranch live a much better life than a wild ox. They are protected from predators, never go without food, and instead of dying over a season due to an leg injury or infection from a wolf bite, they are killed instantly and painlessly.
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Nov 20, 2018 13:27
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Hate to break this to you, but we killed the aurochs off 400 years ago
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Nov 20, 2018 13:35
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After 3 years vegan (8ish vegetarian) I finally went and got my blood values checked. I don't really have a carefully crafted diet, but I try to hit the relevant nutrients and also supplement with Omnivegan as well as algae omega-3 (DHA & ALA). The only worrisome outlier in the results was slightly elevated Erc(B)-MCH (34pg), which can be a result of B12 defiency, but my B12 levels in turn were totally fine (279 pmol/L) so by itself it's not really indicative of anything and more likely to be genetic / normal variation. Other than that, the results were good: in line with what you'd expect from a plant-based diet (which I recommend for everybody)
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Nov 20, 2018 15:00
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Funny this thread got bumped. I just made a new friend who's vegan, and we got stupid drunk a couple nights ago and she was in no shape to go home, so I made up the couch and tucked her in. Next day, she felt obliged to feed me, and walked down to the co-op and bought a couple boxes of Upton's Naturals vegan cheesy bacon mac. I've had quite a few weird boxed macs from the co-op since my husband works there and often brings home free stuff that was gonna code out. Like, Annie's gluten-free mac and cheese was just... wrong. So I was wary. This stuff was really good! The trick, she said, is to brown it a bit in a hot skillet. It really tasted like genuine mac and cheese with little chunks of bacon in it (it's seitan) and despite it being instant, the browning made it seem like we'd oven baked it. I'm of the opinion that vegans shouldn't be constantly struggling to find fake food substitutes when there's plenty of options for a tasty and varied diet, but I'm sure some of y'all might miss easy comfort food like that. I highly recommend this product if need to scratch that itch (or are crazy hungover and don't want to effort-cook).
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Nov 20, 2018 17:26
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zapplez posted:Depending on what meat you eat from where, you could make a strong argument that the typical cow from an organic and sustainable beef ranch live a much better life than a wild ox. They are protected from predators, never go without food, and instead of dying over a season due to an leg injury or infection from a wolf bite, they are killed instantly and painlessly. It's still born, fed and protected only to be slaughtered in the end.
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Nov 21, 2018 23:24
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von Braun posted:It's still born, fed and protected only to be slaughtered in the end. Good point. Animals in the wild usually just go on to live forever in peace and harmony.
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Nov 21, 2018 23:44
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That's a pretty hilariously dishonest argument. None of these animals would exist in captivity or in the wild if we didn't eat meat. The creation of billions of sentient lives to be kept in captivity, have most of them tortured, and then slaughtered for an unnecessary purpose is exactly the problem.
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Nov 22, 2018 01:40
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ChairMaster posted:That's a pretty hilariously dishonest argument. None of these animals would exist in captivity or in the wild if we didn't eat meat. The creation of billions of sentient lives to be kept in captivity, have most of them tortured, and then slaughtered for an unnecessary purpose is exactly the problem. How is a cow grazing in an open field torture?
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Nov 22, 2018 02:31
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How is "a cow grazing in an open field" in any way representative of the majority of animals raised for meat? Going by numbers alone, chickens being kept in cages in which they are unable to move or turn around and never see the light of day before being boiled alive outnumbers cows pretty handily. Also cows literally should not exist, they're an environmental atrocity. You know you can eat meat and still admit that it's wrong, right? I do.
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Nov 22, 2018 03:13
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zapplez posted:I am not going to convince anyone of anything in this thread, and I dont really care to anyways. I hope any recent vegan converts have good health results and have fun with it. Some of your friends will be jerks and judge you (like me, but I am an rear end). This was you a month ago. What are you trying to accomplish here?
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Nov 22, 2018 03:42
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You are what you eat and this guys been eating a whole lot of beef
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Nov 22, 2018 12:04
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Chili posted:This was you a month ago. What are you trying to accomplish here? I think zapplez is turning into a corn cob, insisting he is not owned.
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Nov 22, 2018 13:05
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ChairMaster posted:How is "a cow grazing in an open field" in any way representative of the majority of animals raised for meat? Going by numbers alone, chickens being kept in cages in which they are unable to move or turn around and never see the light of day before being boiled alive outnumbers cows pretty handily. Ah I misread your first comment. I thought you meant all animals raised for meat were tortured when what you said was most or many. Yeah you are probably right about that as any time big business gets involved profit ends up as the only thing that matters. Factory farming is poo poo.
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Nov 22, 2018 13:52
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See what I don't understand is how eating a chicken breast grown in a vat from a discarded feather is in any way morally better or worse than eating a bowl of spinache grown in some dirt from a discarded seed. The bird who lost the feather doesn't give a poo poo, the cultured cells can't feel pain, they have no capacity for suffering or really any amount of thought at all. Not even simple thoughts; they just exist. Do you not eat bread because they added yeast before they baked it? Yeast is alive. How about yogurt or kombucha? Are those morally repugnant because they contain bacteria? When you get cut do you mourn the loss of your blood cells? The whole argument doesn't make any sense to me from any perspective other than meat cells being inherently more valuable than other kinds of cells, which seems like a strange idea to me. E: Oh and while I'm here I would like to ask a question to the vegans in this thread who choose to be so because of compassionate/moral reasons. How do you all feel about eating eggs lain by chickens that have been raised humanely? My personal view is that the chickens haven't been suffering, the eggs weren't fertilized so they have no chance to become chickens later on, and the chickens will continue laying the eggs anyways, so it doesn't seem to me like like any cause for concern. I'd like to hear some of your stances and thoughts on this. Davinci fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Nov 25, 2018 |
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Nov 25, 2018 01:13
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If I lived on the same planet as Davinci and zapplez I would be an omnivore. Unfortunately I'm still stuck in this loving reality where billions of creatures are born each year into the most cruel conditions you can imagine, not leaving their tiny crates until it's time for slaughter. Is there any room in the "cows grazing on an open field" or the "chicken breast grown in a vat" dimension? E: On the vanishingly rare chance that you aren't trolling, I would recommend reading some Peter Singer for some accessible takes on applied ethics. Mata fucked around with this message at 01:48 on Nov 25, 2018 |
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Nov 25, 2018 01:32
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I'm pro vegan & vegetarianism and i think it's loving rad that yall are taking steps to mitigate some of the evil of this godforsaken planet. Even if that's not my personal strategy for it The first part of my post was taking issue with the other dude whose been harassing yall since page 1 and the second was out of genuine curiosity on how you view products sourced from animals that *are* treated well. I'll take a peak at some of that author's stuff after finals if my library has any Davinci fucked around with this message at 02:11 on Nov 25, 2018 |
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Nov 25, 2018 02:08
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Davinci posted:See what I don't understand is how eating a chicken breast grown in a vat from a discarded feather is in any way morally better or worse than eating a bowl of spinache grown in some dirt from a discarded seed. There are other reasons someone might not want to eat it, but I'm not aware of anyone saying it's morally better or worse than eating misspelled spinach. hth.
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Nov 25, 2018 02:09
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Davinci posted:E: Oh and while I'm here I would like to ask a question to the vegans in this thread who choose to be so because of compassionate/moral reasons. How do you all feel about eating eggs lain by chickens that have been raised humanely? My personal view is that the chickens haven't been suffering, the eggs weren't fertilized so they have no chance to become chickens later on, and the chickens will continue laying the eggs anyways, so it doesn't seem to me like like any cause for concern. I'd like to hear some of your stances and thoughts on this. To my conscience, there's no ethical/moral issue with that situation you pose. I still wouldn't eat those eggs though. The road I got to veganism on was one largely based out of compassion and has since changed and developed such that, when asked "why are you a vegan" my go-to answer is: All of the reasons are good. The ratio of nutrition to junk from eggs just can't stand up to my regular diet. While I did enjoy them back in the day, I've also just lost a taste for them as they haven't been in my diet for years. And there's the mental dodging one has to do when actually thinking about what eggs are, where they come from etc. Not trying to come off as holier-than-thou, and I certainly wouldn't begrudge an egg-finding consumer (or anyone for that matter, do whatever you want) but I suspect many vegans, even those started going that way for ethical reasons, would agree.
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Nov 25, 2018 04:14
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Davinci posted:E: Oh and while I'm here I would like to ask a question to the vegans in this thread who choose to be so because of compassionate/moral reasons. How do you all feel about eating eggs lain by chickens that have been raised humanely? My personal view is that the chickens haven't been suffering, the eggs weren't fertilized so they have no chance to become chickens later on, and the chickens will continue laying the eggs anyways, so it doesn't seem to me like like any cause for concern. I'd like to hear some of your stances and thoughts on this.
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Nov 25, 2018 15:04
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roomforthetuna posted:One reasonable moral issue someone might take with this situation is that if you eat the few humane eggs, someone else who just wants eggs and doesn't care will end up eating the same number of inhumane eggs, whereas if you leave them, one of those people who doesn't care will unintentionally eat humane eggs instead. ie. even eating humane eggs is still worsening the supply-demand ratio for eggs in general. (Assuming the alternative to eating them is that they will go into someone else's food supply. If it's eat the eggs or they'll just go to waste because you're trapped on an island or something then this issue would not apply.) I think you could just as easily argue the other side. The more humane eggs you buy, the more the farms see the demand for humane eggs and try to convert to those standards. The demand for good eggs is a net good? I'd think the recent trend towards farm-to-table and organic and humane is good. Its good that more people that consider if they want healthy and happy cows that lived a safe life versus ones in a factory farming scenario. Same for eggs, milk, etc etc.
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Nov 25, 2018 20:43
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There’s also the issue that companies can and do fulfill the bare minimum to qualify as “free range” etc Free range eggs from the supermarket were laid by a chicken that had access to sunlight. They weren’t, as the name would imply, roaming freely. A normal egg operation with a little square of roof removed is “free range” legally.
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Nov 25, 2018 21:02
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:There’s also the issue that companies can and do fulfill the bare minimum to qualify as “free range” etc Of course lovely advertising is an issue. In Canada we have a major fast food chain that advertises their chicken as being "hormone free", when in fact our regulations prevent all chicken raised in Canada as being free from hormones, so its pretty lovely advertising. Now, if you can actually go see the 40 acre farm where they have fresh eggs and happy goats, pretty safe to say you might have some cruelty free proteins on your hands.
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Nov 26, 2018 00:29
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zapplez posted:Now, if you can actually go see the 40 acre farm where they have fresh eggs and happy goats, pretty safe to say you might have some cruelty free proteins on your hands. In the UK you can absolutely go on a little drive in the countryside and see signs on the gates of small farms advertising whatever is in season. It will most likely be amazing, and you can go see the conditions of the animals if you want. I’d highly recommend it for people who aren’t ready to be vegan but don’t want cruelty involved in their food chain. Of course, it’s only possible if you live near some farms. The best lamb I ever had was from a small farm like that.
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Nov 26, 2018 03:01
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Yes, there are a lot of solutions to the problem of "animals being tortured for their whole lives and killed with little or no attention to humane treatment", but not a single one of them is even slightly realistic as far as meeting the overall global supply for animal protein demand. Maybe some day cloned meat will be economically plausible and non-disastrous for the environment (as if anything could be worse than cows), but right now in the real world that is simply not the case.
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Nov 26, 2018 03:12
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zapplez posted:I think you could just as easily argue the other side. The more humane eggs you buy, the more the farms see the demand for humane eggs and try to convert to those standards. The demand for good eggs is a net good? I mean it's a valid argument for converting from bad eggs to good eggs, but it's not a valid argument that buying good eggs is better than buying no eggs. A better argument on that side would be not that your additional egg demand makes farms convert (it doesn't, it just adds 'good' farms in addition to existing bad farms) but rather that you might set an example for others to change from 'bad eggs' to 'good eggs' when they would not have followed your example to change from 'bad eggs' to 'no eggs', and that change in demand might influence farms to change. (By lying about their eggs being good instead of not lying.)
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Nov 26, 2018 13:53
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roomforthetuna posted:People do make that argument, but it's wrong. Not increasing the demand by 12 eggs has less negative impact than creating additional demand for 12 better eggs on top of the existing demand for 99 billion bad eggs. Also it’s almost impossible to expand something like the production of pasture raised beef, because essentially all pasture is already used in meat production. Increasing demand for that product will then just raise the price.
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Nov 26, 2018 16:45
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