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Toph Bei Fong posted:I have never understood how positioning the white working class on the side of the bourgeois and upper classes would result in any sort of positive change, when there aren't overwhelming numbers on Sakai's side such that the loss of the white working class wouldn't demographically matter. but i'm actually not so sure how true it still is, seems like it has decayed a bit since sakai wrote settlers. remember that he wrote it in the early 1980s when, if you were a depressive maoist type on the downslope of the NCM, then things would've probably seemed really doomed and blackpilled with a really ugly and unstoppable reagan counterrevolution powering to victory after victory.
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Feb 5, 2022 07:00
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like if you trace the process of primitive accumulation in the united $nakkke$ it looks something like army clears indians off the land --> armed settlers move in behind them and settle it --> several generations down the line, sell the land to banks (profit) --> upgrade to suburbs --> get stuck with 30-year mortgages which on paper make you look wealthier as asset prices rise while you're falling deeper and deeper into debt --> generation after that are converted into renters as capitalism enters its moribund, parasitic financialized stage --> socialism??? but then you also have new fascist movements emerge because that labor aristocracy knows their days are numbered
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Feb 5, 2022 07:14
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CANON posted:I was wondering how long till someone called Sakai a spook and the thread does not disappoint He is. Telling who actually believes the dogshit he writes . Outside of it also being poorly researched.
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Feb 5, 2022 17:09
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what's up with spelling it amerika, like what is the actual reason people do this? good faith question i am very curious about it!
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Feb 5, 2022 18:01
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lobster shirt posted:what's up with spelling it amerika, like what is the actual reason people do this? good faith question i am very curious about it! It's the euro way of spelling the world. The cool way is Amerikkka.
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Feb 5, 2022 18:25
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lobster shirt posted:what's up with spelling it amerika, like what is the actual reason people do this? good faith question i am very curious about it!
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Feb 5, 2022 18:30
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goons on every thread of c-spam: demon cracker nation guy makes book saying Amerikkka is a demon cracker nation: umm he’s wrong and also cia
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Feb 5, 2022 18:32
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I read it and didn't find it particularly eye opening nor do I understand why it gets under certain leftists skin so much? The earlier parts of the book, on the formation of the labor aristocracy was interesting but that's about it.
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Feb 5, 2022 21:07
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PawParole posted:Id love to read it, but the shipping time from Langley to my house is outrageous.
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Feb 5, 2022 21:35
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Idia posted:I read it and didn't find it particularly eye opening nor do I understand why it gets under certain leftists skin so much? It's probably because it's an internet meme. The book is okay, Sakai does a really bad mediocre job of defending his thesis about white settler colonialism. There are so many books that do a better job.
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Feb 5, 2022 23:00
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White American workers will in fact be the vanguard of world revolution
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Feb 6, 2022 01:39
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unwantedplatypus posted:I wonder how first world leftists are supposed to gain power while promising to decrease peoples’ living standards. I wonder more how third world leftists are gonna accept the ‘no warfare but class warfare’ when even the idea of reducing first world living standards are dead in the water
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Feb 6, 2022 02:29
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skipmyseashells posted:I wonder more how third world leftists are gonna accept the ‘no warfare but class warfare’ when even the idea of reducing first world living standards are dead in the water Bridges are literally collapsing, the hospitals that haven't already been shut down are increasingly incapable of taking care of sick people, people are drowning in debt and rent, etc; there is no "First World Living Standard" save for the elite and their stooges in America.
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Feb 6, 2022 02:41
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99% of all people who read settlers read it to justify continuing to do nothing, too.
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Feb 6, 2022 03:00
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skipmyseashells posted:I wonder more how third world leftists are gonna accept the ‘no warfare but class warfare’ when even the idea of reducing first world living standards are dead in the water This is so dumb unless you think reducing living standards means less consumption rather than reducing quality of life. You are not going to have a successful political movement by telling people they have to get shittier medical treatment, have less access to basic amenities, and more food insecurity. Moralizing about how unfair this is isn't going to change that fact. You can reduce consumption without reducing living standards. You can then pair this with helping to improve the living standards of the third world.
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Feb 6, 2022 04:17
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PawParole posted:Id love to read it, but the shipping time from Langley to my house is outrageous. hot drat! that is a take. here was my takeaway from reading settlers several years ago: revolutions are something you do with lots of peeps with lots of guns. in the imperialist cores, we have no peeps and no guns. why do we have no peeps or guns? sakai's got two answers for this - the first being that we never had that many peeps or guns ever no matter how far back you go, and the second being that whatever productive labouring class there is in NA actually benefits from the imperialist structure of the world system. (also a bunch of gently caress whitey but idgaf about racial essentialist poo poo really). which, they do, and there's plenty of other really solid materialist historical analysis that demonstrates this. hence the everyone being a temporarily embarrassed millionaire cultural thingy. also, literally every succesful revolution in history has happened in a periphery, including the capitalist ones. cores don't revolt! all the big pseudo-waves in the NA core were mirroring other peripheral revolutionary waves. sorry if this minimizes your lived suffering in the hellhole that is the NA core but thems the breaks. none of this in any way points to doing nothing. it points to there being lots and lots to do.
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Feb 6, 2022 16:16
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Ironically despite seeming to be the place where it's least likely to happen and most likely to be defeated, I think it might be that the Imperial Core is the only place where revolution could actually defeat global capital. Whenever a revolution (even non socialist ones that still buck the world order) succeeds in the periphery it immediately gets "contained" and turned into , if not a pariah state, then at least excluded from all the cool kid clubs. Cuba's been under siege for the past 70 years, Iran is blocked from participating in the world community at every step, even the Soviet Union, who managed to take over a rather large (albeit second rate) world power still got ultimately encircled and strangled by the first rate powers. Even places like Vietnam and China have been forced to let capitalism make inroads into their countries to avoid being dogpiled by the West. I legit wonder if the only way for to overthrow global capital would be to "cut of the snake at the head" as it were, where if things deteriorate enough the proletariat of the core gets class conscious and revolts. Of course if things deteriorate that much it may be that the core no longer has the power to encircle, contain, and strangle revolts in the periphery and the preceding paragraph is just a bunch of nonsense. So I guess what matters how fast conditions for the core proletariat deteriorate compared to how fast the cores power projection does.
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Feb 6, 2022 22:21
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there’s no reality where america or Europe starts or leads the revolution
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Feb 6, 2022 22:35
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skipmyseashells posted:there’s no reality where america or Europe starts or leads the revolution In the current state of things definitely, but History has shown that no state of affairs is permanent. Whose to say 50 years from now things haven't degenerated to such a massive extent that the whole "Labor Aristocracy" Middle Class no longer exists?
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Feb 6, 2022 23:36
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skipmyseashells posted:there’s no reality where america or Europe starts or leads the revolution revolution can occur when the treats stop, and they are stopping there is no reality where the us continues it's hegemony indefinitely into the future, it's incapable of responding to crisis beyond throwing money and pr at things. the leaders are all hapsburg-tier dipshits that actually believe the bullshit their grandparents made up as rhetoric this isn't to say that the massive positional advantage won't and hasn't let them continue, but they are literally too stupid and clueless as a whole to buy people off anymore, they've lost the ability to doing anthing that isn't short sighted
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Feb 6, 2022 23:56
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galagazombie posted:In the current state of things definitely, but History has shown that no state of affairs is permanent. Whose to say 50 years from now things haven't degenerated to such a massive extent that the whole "Labor Aristocracy" Middle Class no longer exists? cause that means either a revolution or new empire has won out. it’s so contradictory that I wouldn’t believe it in fiction
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Feb 7, 2022 00:02
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Brain Candy posted:there is no reality where the us continues it's hegemony indefinitely into the future, it's incapable of responding to crisis beyond throwing money and pr at things. the leaders are all hapsburg-tier dipshits that actually believe the bullshit their grandparents made up as rhetoric The final paragraph of the book echoes this, although it's more likely meant that revolution will be possible elsewhere once the US empire no longer exists. quote:Every nation and people has its own contribution to make to the world revolution. This is true for all of us, and obviously for Euro-Amerikans as well. But this is another discussion, one that can only really take place in the context of breaking up the U.S. Empire and ending the U.S. oppressor nation.
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Feb 7, 2022 00:56
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skipmyseashells posted:cause that means either a revolution or new empire has won out. it’s so contradictory that I wouldn’t believe it in fiction I’m not sure I understand you saying “revolution has won out” because that’s what I’m saying? The first world proletariat would actually start being capable of revolution if they were no longer given even the crumbs they are now.
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Feb 7, 2022 00:59
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Brain Candy posted:revolution can occur when the treats stop, and they are stopping
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Feb 7, 2022 01:06
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Crowsbeak posted:He is. Telling who actually believes the dogshit he writes . Outside of it also being poorly researched. i find it difficult to believe you've read see spot run, much less settlers
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Feb 7, 2022 09:14
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R. Guyovich posted:i find it difficult to believe you've read see spot run, much less settlers See Deez nuts run
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Feb 7, 2022 10:34
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Gato posted:It's been a while since I read 1491 and I have no idea if it's considered up to date but iirc the smallpox and influenza brought by the Spanish to the Caribbean had already decimated continental North America (possibly up to 90%) by the time European settlers started arriving in meaningful numbers a century later. The settlers were only able to get a toehold in the first place because the Native American societies had been so drastically weakened by the plague. afaik 1491 is pretty up to date unless the scholarship has radically changed over the past 10-15 years. that's about accurate. the death in the 1500s in the spanish colonies is insane, some of the worst plagues in recorded history wiping out the vast majority of indigenous americans to successive yearly waves of various plagues well before anyone understood germ theory. the spanish were dependent on indigenous labour at that point as well so while they were brutal overlords, they also weren't going to intentionally sabotage their own workforce. much of the history of early post-contact is figuring out how to establish a workforce in the new colonies because everyone is either a) running away because they know how to survive in the interior or b) dying at incredible rates to euro diseases, which includes the european labourers they brought over.
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Feb 7, 2022 11:10
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emTme3 posted:hot drat! that is a take. America, a gun free, peaceful land.
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Feb 7, 2022 17:05
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Dreddout posted:America, a gun free, peaceful land. bunch of glocks won't do much good in an insurrection
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Feb 7, 2022 19:09
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I'm sorry the ied doesn't have the cultural cache sidearms do in America. I'm dubbing Houthi nasheeds as fast as I can.
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Feb 10, 2022 13:55
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R. Guyovich posted:i find it difficult to believe you've read see spot run, much less settlers I mean I have difficulty believing you read so...
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Feb 10, 2022 23:50
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emTme3 posted:hot drat! that is a take. In what way was Imperial Russia a peripheral country, or France. Iran also was not really peripheral by the 70s. Dreylad posted:afaik 1491 is pretty up to date unless the scholarship has radically changed over the past 10-15 years. that's about accurate. the death in the 1500s in the spanish colonies is insane, some of the worst plagues in recorded history wiping out the vast majority of indigenous americans to successive yearly waves of various plagues well before anyone understood germ theory. the spanish were dependent on indigenous labour at that point as well so while they were brutal overlords, they also weren't going to intentionally sabotage their own workforce. much of the history of early post-contact is figuring out how to establish a workforce in the new colonies because everyone is either a) running away because they know how to survive in the interior or b) dying at incredible rates to euro diseases, which includes the european labourers they brought over. This should also be read with the Barbarous years if you want to see how brutal the colonization of the southern us was. Crowsbeak has issued a correction as of 01:28 on Feb 11, 2022 |
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Feb 11, 2022 01:25
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Amerigo manifest some destiny - Hillary probably
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Feb 11, 2022 04:14
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Crowsbeak posted:I mean I have difficulty believing you read so... you're a parakeet
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Feb 11, 2022 05:16
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R. Guyovich posted:you're a parakeet I mean better then being a clinical moron who thinks you somehow have a revolution by telling people you want to destroy their country. I do hope someone can help your feeble minded tendencies. Speaking of non peripheral countries. Short Victorious war is coming it looks like maybe we won’t act like 1905 but 1917.
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Feb 11, 2022 21:59
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wanting to destroy America is bad now? first I hear the imperial core is gonna be the vanguard, and now this?!! was this thread posted in D&D?
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Feb 11, 2022 22:32
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skipmyseashells posted:wanting to destroy America is bad now? first I hear the imperial core is gonna be the vanguard, and now this?!! I was going to close it because it got poo poo up in no time but I figured I'd leave it open so maybe some people see it and read the book
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Feb 11, 2022 22:39
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So wait... this is race-essentialism drivel and there’s no warfare but class warfare... but for some unexplained reason that we won’t discuss the global south and Africa took on way more damage than anyone from the global north also white westerners are gonna save us all? did I get everything correct in the thread so far skipmyseashells has issued a correction as of 01:52 on Feb 12, 2022 |
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Feb 11, 2022 22:49
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Flowers For Algeria posted:I mean, there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the analysis. Conflating the columbian exchange and resulting apocalyptic epidemics with the subsequent genocide of the remaining indigenous population is pretty dumb, doesn't really contribute to any point, and is an analysis that can only come from the same euro-centric well of ahistorical dumbshittery that the author is criticizing in the first place. There's a reason why the american continents are singular in the extent to which indigenous languages, cultures, and ethnicities were annihilated and replaced. Ignoring this gives too much credit to the imperialists, too little to the indigenous population, and not nearly enough to the cruelty of god. But other than it mostly looks OK on the surface, if not a rehash of things the intended audience will read and say "well duh".
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Feb 11, 2022 23:16
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Crowsbeak posted:I mean better then being a clinical moron who thinks you somehow have a revolution by telling people you want to destroy their country. I do hope someone can help your feeble minded tendencies. you got convinced by i can only assume are some podcasters that true proletarian revolution is only possible by upholding the iconography of the united states of america, the fourth reich, the great satan. i'm pretty sure if you listened to enough audio about the nutrition of pond scum you'd be treating the nearest stagnant puddle as a buffet
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Feb 12, 2022 01:49
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