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unfortunately a lot of game devs, especially aaa ones, seem more focused on the 'sensible attire' part than the 'fully formed characterization' part so i think how surface level her analysis was has caused some problems
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Aug 10, 2023 22:39
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Truxton posted:the huge backlash to Final Fantasy XIII kicked off this weird phase in the industry where a bunch of people (Mostly journalists, but some devs too) started getting weirdly racist about Japanese games Everyone knows that final fantasy is a traitor, though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-uTnqYHZ-I Endorph posted:there's some eastern European games but not the kind that get a ton of press, for the most part. JRPG doesn't seem that bad when you consider that the term for european games is "eurojank" Cutedge fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Aug 10, 2023 |
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Aug 10, 2023 22:46
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I have actually seen an episode of Feminist Frequency back when it was new and thought it was alright, then never watched it again. But for some reason her name always stuck with me, I liked to imagine that she defeated the "Neat Sarkeesia"n in battle but must live in fear of the eventual "Neatest Sarkeesian" who will eventually come to replace her. Now that she's stepping down, perhaps that time has come.
Tombot fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Aug 10, 2023 |
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Aug 10, 2023 22:59
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She took a bunch of suckers to the bank, and now that it's dried up she's on to some other pasture, maybe back to the MLM scams she was running before this. Her disingenuous broad-brushing of video games as a monolith of misogyny caused lasting damage to the community for her personal monetary gain and her descent back into obscurity couldn't have happened soon enough. That said, the number of cretins who crawled out of the woodwork to show their asses to the world by threatening a person who they could've simply ignored is dismaying. I don't think that prior to that I can recall any instance of Internet lynch mobbing to that degree, and since then it's gotten distressingly common. Say what you will about gamergate, but the impression I had at the time was that Quinn herself wasn't receiving the brunt of it; it seemed more distributed evenly with the outlets who were circling their wagons around the whole "gamers are dead" thing. The hate on Sarkeesian was a new and darker turn, and the Internet's stayed a nastier place since.
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Aug 10, 2023 23:06
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Valatar posted:Say what you will about gamergate, but the impression I had at the time was that Quinn herself wasn't receiving the brunt of it; it seemed more distributed evenly with the outlets who were circling their wagons around the whole "gamers are dead" thing.
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Aug 10, 2023 23:16
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Valatar posted:She took a bunch of suckers to the bank, and now that it's dried up she's on to some other pasture, maybe back to the MLM scams she was running before this. Her disingenuous broad-brushing of video games as a monolith of misogyny caused lasting damage to the community for her personal monetary gain and her descent back into obscurity couldn't have happened soon enough. That said, the number of cretins who crawled out of the woodwork to show their asses to the world by threatening a person who they could've simply ignored is dismaying. I don't think that prior to that I can recall any instance of Internet lynch mobbing to that degree, and since then it's gotten distressingly common. Say what you will about gamergate, but the impression I had at the time was that Quinn herself wasn't receiving the brunt of it; it seemed more distributed evenly with the outlets who were circling their wagons around the whole "gamers are dead" thing. The hate on Sarkeesian was a new and darker turn, and the Internet's stayed a nastier place since. Please elaborate on MLM thanks
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Aug 10, 2023 23:16
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Endorph posted:unfortunately a lot of game devs, especially aaa ones, seem more focused on the 'sensible attire' part than the 'fully formed characterization' part so i think how surface level her analysis was has caused some problems What problems has it caused? Did AAA games previously have "fully formed characterizations" for female characters prior to her videos that then went away?
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Aug 10, 2023 23:25
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as far as online discourse is concerned the problem was that for a while discussions about writing good woman characters in media seemed to focus excessively on surface level things that could easily be digested like curvy breastplates and not "are the women in this media fully formed characters and/or active agents in the narrative" but i think that was a trend in media as a whole and can't really be credited to feminist frequency
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Aug 10, 2023 23:33
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Feels Villeneuve posted:as far as online discourse is concerned the problem was that for a while discussions about writing good woman characters in media seemed to focus excessively on surface level things that could easily be digested like curvy breastplates and not "are the women in this media fully formed characters and/or active agents in the narrative" to be fair, at the time that poo poo was bad.
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Aug 10, 2023 23:36
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porfiria posted:Please elaborate on MLM thanks me signing on to a fanfic site
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Aug 10, 2023 23:38
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koolkal posted:What problems has it caused? Did AAA games previously have "fully formed characterizations" for female characters prior to her videos that then went away? What, you don't remember the memorable character of "Dom's wife" from Gears of War 2?
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Aug 10, 2023 23:44
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koolkal posted:What problems has it caused? Did AAA games previously have "fully formed characterizations" for female characters prior to her videos that then went away? characterization didnt really get worse exactly but it got a lot more overwrought and self-congratulatory while still being exactly as shallow
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Aug 10, 2023 23:47
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That's the problem though. You can have tragedy, but the discourse meant that literally any attempt at it had to be a certain way. That's not a way to make people write better.
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Aug 10, 2023 23:48
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Endorph posted:genuinely: ps1 lara croft was a better character than reboot lara croft because at least ps1 lara croft was just a cool british lady who killed dinosaurs with dual SMGs That poor woman had three origins where she discovered what she really wanted to do was look for artifacts but she... didn't wear shorts, I guess?
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Aug 11, 2023 00:44
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Valatar posted:She took a bunch of suckers to the bank, and now that it's dried up she's on to some other pasture, maybe back to the MLM scams she was running before this. Her disingenuous broad-brushing of video games as a monolith of misogyny caused lasting damage to the community for her personal monetary gain and her descent back into obscurity couldn't have happened soon enough. That said, the number of cretins who crawled out of the woodwork to show their asses to the world by threatening a person who they could've simply ignored is dismaying. I don't think that prior to that I can recall any instance of Internet lynch mobbing to that degree, and since then it's gotten distressingly common. Say what you will about gamergate, but the impression I had at the time was that Quinn herself wasn't receiving the brunt of it; it seemed more distributed evenly with the outlets who were circling their wagons around the whole "gamers are dead" thing. The hate on Sarkeesian was a new and darker turn, and the Internet's stayed a nastier place since. lmao
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Aug 11, 2023 03:24
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HopperUK posted:lmao
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Aug 11, 2023 03:35
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Endorph posted:the mlm stuff is lol but i do agree that the broadbrushing just created an avenue for a bunch of extremely lame guys to think making a bunch of girls that are Daughters is feminism, instead of actually talking about and promoting games by and for women Yeah that's true, it just caught me funny that MLM woman!!
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Aug 11, 2023 03:40
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Honestly Anita's examples sometimes were also kind of bad and undermined her point. I remember her criticizing The Boss from MGS3 as being a bad representation of a female character cause of the way she dresses in the last part of the game, which is odd to focus on considering The Boss' actions and status in the game made her an absolute badass and put her above most of the men in that game.
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Aug 11, 2023 04:11
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Cutedge posted:JRPG doesn't seem that bad when you consider that the term for european games is "eurojank" Eurojank is a very specific vibe of game, not just “games from Europe,” though I think it’s probably a term that sees overuse nowadays. JRPG, similarly I think, is a term that can be a useful descriptor for certain pieces of long-standing RPG design but is definitely used as a pejorative by dumb assholes one step removed from saying “The Orient.” Just look at the media response to FF16 of “This game says stuff about slavery and then throws it all away half way through!” FF is just a JRPG it’s not possible that the villain whose entire civilization is in thrall to a horrifically destructive environmental cycle could also be an extended commentary on the same thing. It’s just a dumb story about magic.
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Aug 11, 2023 04:33
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Archer666 posted:Honestly Anita's examples sometimes were also kind of bad and undermined her point. I remember her criticizing The Boss from MGS3 as being a bad representation of a female character cause of the way she dresses in the last part of the game, which is odd to focus on considering The Boss' actions and status in the game made her an absolute badass and put her above most of the men in that game. not to mention snake spends like half the game shirtless too, its the rare example where you can actually say the fanservice was equal opportunity.
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Aug 11, 2023 07:11
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I think that's my problem with it. It doesn't matter your reasoning or what lead up to it, skin = bad. Its a very puritan way to look at things. Don't look at the subject matter in detail, just point at a part that you don't like and say its bad.
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Aug 11, 2023 12:53
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To be fair the conversation has moved on a lot from when she first started making videos, too. Like at the time if you even gestured at feminist critique you got slammed into the ground. It's not so long ago that even having a female protagonist in a game was really unusual and now it's completely normal.
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Aug 11, 2023 15:09
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dogstile posted:I think that's my problem with it. It doesn't matter your reasoning or what lead up to it, skin = bad. She called Bayonetta a "choose your own patriarchal adventure porno fantasy" and summed up her character as "blah blah blah, it's not anything that actually matters" 
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Aug 11, 2023 18:35
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HopperUK posted:It's not so long ago that even having a female protagonist in a game was really unusual and now it's completely normal.
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Aug 11, 2023 21:05
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do you have any idea how many otome games have been released
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Aug 11, 2023 21:06
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Endorph posted:do you have any idea how many otome games have been released Eh yeah, I suppose I was thinking about quite a limited set of games. That's my bad.
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Aug 11, 2023 21:27
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Endorph posted:do you have any idea how many otome games have been released I think this is a more complicated point than just that right, like the games that really have full cultural penetration especially in the West are explicitly games that don’t have female protagonists. Don’t get me wrong, there’s examples and exceptions, but I think using games that your average western person would never hear about is the opposite example
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Aug 11, 2023 21:34
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Lady Radia posted:I think this is a more complicated point than just that right, like the games that really have full cultural penetration especially in the West are explicitly games that don’t have female protagonists. Don’t get me wrong, there’s examples and exceptions, but I think using games that your average western person would never hear about is the opposite example Not to mention, I'd disagree with the idea that games that have 'full cultural penetration, especially in the west, are explicitly games that don't have female protagonists,' to begin with, unless you want to quibble about what cultural penetration is.
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Aug 11, 2023 21:40
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I was always slightly surprised why the larger faction of gamergaters who are extremely worried about censorship of anime titties didn't eat the smaller faction who thought any mention of sex was due to degenerates and groomers.
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Aug 11, 2023 22:48
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Senethro posted:I was always slightly surprised why the larger faction of gamergaters who are extremely worried about censorship of anime titties didn't eat the smaller faction who thought any mention of sex was due to degenerates and groomers. Isn't the secret that they only care about the immorality of sex when it's gay
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Aug 11, 2023 23:02
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Endorph posted:unfortunately a lot of game devs, especially aaa ones, seem more focused on the 'sensible attire' part than the 'fully formed characterization' part so i think how surface level her analysis was has caused some problems lol that starting a ground floor, basic-rear end feminist critique of video games (something that was badly, badly needed at the time) still has nerds blaming it for all the misogynist ills of the gaming world in tyool 2023
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Aug 11, 2023 23:37
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Endorph posted:Why are we talking exclusively about western games and western gamers when we're talking about the industry as a whole? It's weird to bring up Mario and Bayonetta and such and then turn around and say the myriad of JP games with female protagonists aimed at female audiences dont count. It seems mostly just like another way of diminishing them, even though they're legitimately influential on the industry. Even if Angelique never got a western release, it had a lot of impact on koei's other output. The reason I’m also keeping that to western gamers is just because I don’t know enough about other regions, I simply have My Cultural Millieu Endorph posted:Not to mention, I'd disagree with the idea that games that have 'full cultural penetration, especially in the west, are explicitly games that don't have female protagonists,' to begin with, unless you want to quibble about what cultural penetration is. I don’t really want to (think it would end up being boring semantics), but I know growing up i certainly didn’t feel there was a lot of women’s representation in the protagonists, and this felt like a commonality whenever I talk to ladies my age in gaming spaces. Typing that out I realize it is anecdotal. If you have stronger data then I’d be eager to read
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Aug 11, 2023 23:37
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Censorship is when clothes are redesigned into someone a woman would actually wear. Anita Sarkeesian has made some of the worst people in the world forthingly angry for 15 years, and has resulted in video games being about 500% less cringey. Good show in my opinion.
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Aug 11, 2023 23:38
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idiotsavant posted:lol that starting a ground floor, basic-rear end feminist critique of video games (something that was badly, badly needed at the time) still has nerds blaming it for all the misogynist ills of the gaming world in tyool 2023 stfu her point is that focusing on an aesthetic idea of feminism in games while not actually exploring or understanding representation, being a non-male in a game, etcetc, could’ve been harmful because it allowed for further objectification and alienation. Dweeb
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Aug 11, 2023 23:39
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Lady Radia posted:stfu her point is that focusing on an aesthetic idea of feminism in games while not actually exploring or understanding representation, being a non-male in a game, etcetc, could’ve been harmful because it allowed for further objectification and alienation. Dweeb youre right, telling nerds that video games are hosed up because they male gaze female characters into bouncing stacks of rear end and tits is wrong and bad, furthermore
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Aug 11, 2023 23:47
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I agree that moving from one hacky trend to another hacky trend is not really social progress, but I think gamergate/Anita is not the biggest influence on that. If anything it feels like an extension of the rainbow capitalism going on.
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Aug 11, 2023 23:48
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Bug Squash posted:Censorship is when clothes are redesigned into someone a woman would actually wear. Or 'removing vagina bones.'
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Aug 11, 2023 23:54
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idiotsavant posted:youre right, telling nerds that video games are hosed up because they male gaze female characters into bouncing stacks of rear end and tits is wrong and bad, furthermore Bug Squash posted:has resulted in video games being about 500% less cringey. Endorph fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Aug 12, 2023 |
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Aug 11, 2023 23:58
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Lady Radia posted:I don’t really want to (think it would end up being boring semantics), but I know growing up i certainly didn’t feel there was a lot of women’s representation in the protagonists, and this felt like a commonality whenever I talk to ladies my age in gaming spaces.
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Aug 12, 2023 00:02
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mycot posted:I agree that moving from one hacky trend to another hacky trend is not really social progress, but I think gamergate/Anita is not the biggest influence on that. If anything it feels like an extension of the rainbow capitalism going on. ya this would be a fair way to explore the discussion but i tried to talk about some (potentially?) interesting trends and historical representation and poo poo in good faith in here but now the entire convo is gonna be endorph trying to explain how aesthetic representation without actual diversity or representation isnt real progress and she'll get called a misogynist for it lol ahhh this isn't really responding to you. more reacting to ur post.
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Aug 12, 2023 00:04
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