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End of an era:quote:AnitaAnita Sarkeesian is tired. More at the link: https://www.polygon.com/23814201/feminist-frequency-shutting-down-anita-sarkeesian So first off, I'd just like to say...I had no idea FF was still going. i've seen Sarkeesian's name pop up once in a while on some tangentially related gaming news in recent years but she hasn't been very prominent in a while. at least, as far as i can tell. secondly, while i disagreed with some of her takes, the harassment that she received was absolutely insane. Gamergate didn't officially start with her, but the seeds were planted around that time, and its effects have been long lasting and still felt to this day. i think a lot of the elements that created gamergate were always there, and people like sarkeesian just helped bring those negative forces to the forefront. i remember back in the day the call of duty lobbies being full of dudes yelling the n-word and saying misogynistic poo poo was a bit of a meme, but GG made it clear that there were a lot of Gamers(tm) unironically were those kinds of people, and made them a lot more prominent. that being said, Sarkeesian also had a positive impact to gaming as well. i think devs and game journalists started taking the issues of misogyny, racism, homophobia, etc. a lot more seriously over the past decade. obviously it's not perfect but people seem to have honestly and earnestly attempted to make some strides. her channel/organization may be gone, but her influence will continue on, i'm sure.
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Aug 2, 2023 18:37
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In case anyone has forgotten how bad the harassment against her got. She was forced to leave her home because of doxxing and death threats made against both her and her family. If you can stomach it, here's an example of said threats, but massive CW for, you know, extremely graphic rape/murder threats. She was forced to cancel a speech at Utah State University after they received a threat from someone claiming they would shoot up the school. "I will write my manifesto in her spilled blood, and you will all bear witness to what feminist lies and poison have done to the men of America." She was sent explicit art of her being raped. The images are no longer there this long later, but you can see it (heavily censored) on archive.org if you feel like digging it up for proof or something. People also mass-reported her on social media, attempted to hack her accounts and email, and DDOSed her site. GDC received a bomb threat for trying to give her an award. She received violent harassment on social media on a daily basis, even years after her Kickstarter concluded (comprehensive CW in the link itself). Someone made a Newgrounds game in which you beat her (CW: a screenshot of said game). What was/is terrifying was that her criticism was - honestly speaking - kind of vanilla. From what I saw, she went after pretty basic 101 stuff, cutting it down into brief and digestible pieces intended for mainstream consumption. As someone who was first getting into feminism around that time, it was pretty horrific to see someone so publicly taken apart for what felt like fairly mild statements and the sheer volume of vitriolic misogyny. It was also around that time that I learned how resistant some people in my life were to the most basic "perhaps women are also people" kind of critique. I remember the threads about feminism in gaming being extremely tense on this very forum - it'd be interesting to go back now and see what they were like. Maybe it's naive to say this, but I feel like there was sort of a before/after around that time where I started to see people becoming a lot more hostile and aggressive on the internet. Perhaps it was the American political tensions of the mid-10s, perhaps it was the rise of social media and the modern alt-right. Perhaps it was my imagination and I just grew up. Like... god, of course there'd always been arguments and trolls and violent bigotry, but it felt like we hit some sort of fever pitch where everyone started assuming the absolute worst of each other. I feel like that was kind of instrumental in the vividly misogynist harassment we saw of people like Anita - suddenly they weren't just women criticizing games, they were "loving bitch who doesn't even play games wants to ruin my hobby and thinks all men are evil". A lightning rod upon which you could project every attribute you've ever hated onto. Imagine Jack Thompson, except a million times worse, and she's a WOMAN! Then entire forums of people stoking each other's anger, radicalizing further, and coordinating ways to most effectively harass her. I wonder how many people who participated in things like that and Gamergate regret it. I wonder how many of them went deeper into alt-right poo poo. I wonder how many of them have no self-reflection about it at all.
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Aug 2, 2023 20:39
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she didnt deserve any of the harassment she got at all to be clear but a lot of her statements were pretty boneheaded like when she criticized stuff by women and they contacted her to try and have a discussion and she completely stonewalled them. theres a pretty direct line you can draw from her to a lot of the extremely wrongheaded 'feminist' stuff you see on resetera or w/e. like i think its good these conversations eventually started to happen but i think even outside of the dudes who harassed her a lot of other dudes went 'oh, if i just agree with this one take im a good feminist now, and anyone who disagrees with me is a bad feminist' Her videos are extremely surface level, basic, and make several basic mistakes, which I don't care about because she's just some youtube lady, but as that polygon article states they're being taught in classes and stuff. It's kind of weird. Endorph fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Aug 2, 2023 |
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Aug 2, 2023 20:43
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Tiny Myers posted:In case anyone has forgotten how bad the harassment against her got. this is a really good post and i agree with lots of it. and i'm especially glad that you 1) made the jack thompson comparison and 2) also feel the anger and harassment on the internet got worse in the 2010s (a huge chunk of that going to GG). i remember back in the 00s discovering jack thompson and how everyone despised him. he was the closest thing the gaming industry had to a supervillain, someone who was actively hostile to it, and no doubt made a poo poo ton of money cause of it. and yeah, somehow anita was hated in ways that thompson couldn't even dream of. and as far as the general harassment, it really did feel it got worse. maybe i'm being nostalgic, but while i'm totally aware that pileons were quite common and some absolutely got it worse than others, it didn't FEEL like it was that toxic or that hateful. it seemed like it was mostly in good fun, if not sometimes going a bit excessive. but hey, i was also a straight male college kid during the 00s.
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Aug 3, 2023 03:12
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Mr Interweb posted:and as far as the general harassment, it really did feel it got worse. maybe i'm being nostalgic, but while i'm totally aware that pileons were quite common and some absolutely got it worse than others, it didn't FEEL like it was that toxic or that hateful. it seemed like it was mostly in good fun, if not sometimes going a bit excessive. but hey, i was also a straight male college kid during the 00s. It did get worse, and it was absolutely on purpose. You can trace a non-trivial amount of our current downward spiral to GamerGate, which was a deliberate recruitment program for chuds.
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Aug 3, 2023 03:48
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finally.... we did it gamers...
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Aug 3, 2023 03:49
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Endorph posted:she didnt deserve any of the harassment she got at all to be clear but a lot of her statements were pretty boneheaded That's kinda my opinion too if we're talking about her, I remember watching her first couple videos when they came out and not liking how she phrased a lot of her arguments and the general format. Good luck at whatever she does next though.
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Aug 3, 2023 04:58
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Mr Interweb posted:and as far as the general harassment, it really did feel it got worse. maybe i'm being nostalgic, but while i'm totally aware that pileons were quite common and some absolutely got it worse than others, it didn't FEEL like it was that toxic or that hateful. it seemed like it was mostly in good fun, if not sometimes going a bit excessive. but hey, i was also a straight male college kid during the 00s. (*To be clear, I'm referring to something like "drawing pregnant naga men", not "fetishizing children", which is far more severe and does deserve social ostracization.) Like, I'm sure some of their "targets" were genuinely awful human beings, but from what I remember from reading that site as a teen, most were only really guilty of being cringe. Maybe also having a big ego or being part of a marginalized group. Certainly not enough to justify hate campaigns and "documentation". I remember SA having some issues with helldumping and mock threads along those lines but I don't remember them well enough to make any statements (aside from some weird sex doll one in GBS that seemed to go on way too long, wtf was that). I think Anita Sarkeesian was kind of the natural conclusion of those harassment campaigns, in the sense that ED and 4chan established a blueprint for targeted harassment, but it obviously happened on a much larger scale. I'm no expert on what made it so much worse, but if I had to guess... well, for one, it went "viral". But also, I'd point to the sort of inferiority complex and feeling of being a minority that many gamer dudes had/have - a lot of them grew up during a time where being a geek DID make you a target for bullying/ostracization. And bullying can be legitimately psychologically scarring. So you feel outcast from society, find this community that speaks to you, and then an INTERLOPER comes along and tells you you're actually very privileged, perhaps Most privileged (if you're a cishet abled white dude), and others have it harder. And your hobby needs some fundamental changes to cater to *them* instead.  WOKEISM Anyone who's dealt with privilege understands that being told this for the first time can feel like you're being told you're a bad person and your way of living is hurting others. So you're suddenly dealing with hurt feelings from that, and you see someone trying to take your precious hobby and community away, when YOU don't see anything wrong with it, especially after you've defended it from what seemed to be unfounded threats before (like "video games cause violence!" jack thompson etc). And, of course, let's not forget the genuine unexamined misogyny buried in these men that proliferates in gamer spaces (including professionally as we all now know from Blizz, Riot, et al). A lot of these dudes are the same ones who see attractive young women as privileged over them (see: the stacy/chad garbage, every gamer dude's bone to pick with 'titty streamers', etc) and also purposely withholding sex from them. I agree with Wanderer about it being a recruitment program. If you watch videos about the alt-right - as I recall, this was a good one, though a bit long - you'll see a lot of their recruiting efforts are young men who feel depressed and isolated, bereft of purpose and kinship. The alt-right deliberately offers a sense of community and acceptance to these men. They point out legitimate issues these men face, yet supply fake answers. Having trouble finding and maintaining a job you like, despite the world promising you one? Increasingly miserable in a capitalist hellscape? We have the answer to what ails you! (stage whisper) it's the immigrants In that sense, these gamer dudes - depressed and struggling with meaning, clinging to a hobby that once brought them joy as children to try and feel something good again - were a perfect target to radicalize against some imaginary enemy. You see, it's not you that's changed. And it's not that the world has become an increasingly capitalist hellscape and, as an adult given responsibility and soaked in an unforgiving patriarchy your entire life to the point that it dictates everything from the emotions you're allowed to feel to the loving shampoo you use, you are going to naturally feel less happy than you were as a child pressing buttons on a Nintendo controller. You see, it's the game companies, becoming increasingly corporate, bending to demographics that don't even play the games, who just want to RUIN them for their AGENDA. Everybody knows women don't play video games, women don't exist on the internet, and how dare this bitch try and take away your one dwindling source of joy in life? That's why they react so violently to "oh my god they removed her vagina bones". It's because it's emblematic. They are reacting, whether they realize it or not, to what they see as the erosion of their life. Their happiness. That's why people don't treat you like a normal human being on Twitter anymore when you state a mild, disagreeing opinion. They do not see you as a human being, but as an emblem representing every single thing they hate. The destruction of everything they love and hold to be sacred and true. This only becomes even more violent and radical as they get told that not only are we taking away the video games, we're raping the children (what could be more sacred than CHILDREN?) and brainwashing them with gender. Truly irredeemable acts. Truly irredeemable people. Evil itself. Not worth your time, not worth your energy, not worth genuine engagement - only mocking them, trying to make them feel an ounce of the pain they so callously enact on others. Huh. Sorry for the words. I guess I accidentally answered my own questions that I posed in my first post.
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Aug 3, 2023 15:49
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Tiny Myers posted:Huh. Sorry for the words. I guess I accidentally answered my own questions that I posed in my first post.
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Aug 3, 2023 16:16
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Tiny Myers posted:That's why they react so violently to "oh my god they removed her vagina bones".
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Aug 3, 2023 16:21
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Tiny Myers posted:I will politely disagree on the note that it was in good fun - Encyclopedia Dramatica, the precursor to Kiwi Farms et al, had been around for a while before this (and itself was apparently born out of Livejournal drama communities). ED, of course, has always been incredibly mean-spirited, cataloguing information on people for the facilitation of harassment. I think it was easier to ignore at the time because it was on a smaller scale, and also those people were "weird" (e.g. visibly neurodivergent and/or having a weird fetish* or obsession) and the way they responded to harassment was rarely graceful. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afkN9H9aLow
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Aug 3, 2023 16:21
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Endorph posted:the changes in #FE were pretty dumb tbf 'Vagina bones' is still an extremely funny phrase to this day, though.
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Aug 3, 2023 17:23
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Tiny Myers posted:'Vagina bones' is still an extremely funny phrase to this day, though.
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Aug 3, 2023 17:28
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I remember people getting really upset about Bravely Default's pervy bikini costume getting toned down. I felt this a tad psychotic at the time--yeah censorship can suck but the game was still kickass and the spirit of the dumb thing was still right there if you had to have weird fanservice stuff. This news is surprising, though I guess in fairness I hadn't really thought about Sarkeesian in a long time. Didn't deserve any of the poo poo she got, even if I disagreed with some of her stances on gaming. In a way I am a little grateful she put herself out there, since I truly had no idea some of the psycho crap buried in the gaming industry. I don't think it's anything unique, mind you, you can find stuff like this anywhere, but I flat out hadn't been thinking about a lot of these topics until suddenly everyone had some dumb opinion about "ethics in gaming journalism." I hope she's able to relax in whatever she does next.
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Aug 3, 2023 18:04
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Wanderer posted:It did get worse, and it was absolutely on purpose. You can trace a non-trivial amount of our current downward spiral to GamerGate, which was a deliberate recruitment program for chuds. As soon as Roger Stone or Roger Ailes or some loving Roger realized that they could use the culture war to onboard a bunch of weirdos into right wing politics, a portal opened to hell and we stepped through. I mean, it's baffling that a series of events happened in which people started freaking out about a no name game developer sleeping with a kotaku editor (which 0 people should have cared about) and then a bunch of the games media decided to simultaneously write a bunch of "all gamers need to be launched into the sun" articles and then gamergate and then r/thedonald and we've been in a nightmare ever since. It's not thatGamerGate caused Trump directly, it just encapsulates a pattern in which people are funneled into being used by some group while all reinforcing garbage ideas. And it is definitely radicalizing, all you have to do is look at r/kia or the even worse r/kia2 where you can literally see people talking about "the JQ" unironically. Because ethics in journalism I guess. Then again, we are on SomethingAwful, which created FYAD, which spawned 4chan, which led to 8chan, and then a bunch of people stormed the capitol because democrats are killing children so that they can get their adrenaline and worship satan. Oops. The funniest thing is that looking back, I kind of feel like Jack Thompson is vindicated*. People focused on him so much and flipped out so much, sending him death threats, making games where you kill him, trying to get him disbarred, just absolutely dwelling on him. I remember it because it was right around when I started working in games, and I remember sites tracking states he was disbarred in. People in the office talked about it constantly. And it's like, ok he said Grand Theft Auto is bad and shouldn't be played by kids? Yes? And everyone cheered when everyone just had a two-minute hate about him but then were utterly shocked when they had a two-minute hate about the next target. Oops. Maybe gamer culture shouldn't have gone whole hog about being absolute shitheels. Maybe this poo poo does rot everyone's brains. Maybe gamers should be over. edit: *only in that the treatment against him shows that gamers were just insane, jack thompson still sucks Cutedge fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Aug 3, 2023 |
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Aug 3, 2023 18:33
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gamers own
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Aug 3, 2023 18:34
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also jack thompson used real life murders entirely unrelated to games to just say 'oh yeah they found a copy of this game in the murderer's room!!!' and conned the victim's families into suing the companies and was also an insane fundie homophobe whose main objection to bully was the gay kissing, so maybe let's not try to do the recuperation of his image thing
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Aug 3, 2023 18:36
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true, he wasn't disbarred for nothing. so I guess it's less about him being vindicated and more about how the treatment he got is pretty cringe in retrospect edit: I didn't know the gay was why he had a problem with bully so uhhhhhhhhhhh yeah :/
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Aug 3, 2023 18:38
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Taking the time to defend my homie(phobe) Jack Thompson in the Anita Sarkeesian thread
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Aug 3, 2023 18:46
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Yeah no Jack Thompson sucks poo poo. I also remember him whole hog inventing some insane poo poo about how The Sims was for pedophiles or something. The only reason I brought him up is because he was a human being deserving of being reviled. He willingly built a career off of poo poo he knew was lies and sensationalism and, yeah, was a huge bigot. He was a justified target, as were other attempts to target video games based on moral objections, like satanic panic poo poo. So I think there were some gamers who saw Anita Sarkeesian as more of the same: some interloper in the news making unfounded accusations about something they knew nothing about, that The Gaming Community needed to rally to defeat. The problem, of course, being that she wasn't. That said, some of the poo poo around Jack Thompson was cringeworthy, such as the famous "DON'T gently caress WITH US" comic from Ctrl-Alt-Del. It seemed like the average gamer felt like they had some hand in "defeating" him, when in reality a bunch of 17 year olds getting mad on the internet on behalf of Rockstar Games had very little to do with it and more like "legal officials, as well as the general public, easily understanding that he was a hyperlitigious clown". quote:In 1988, he ran for prosecutor against then-incumbent Dade County State Attorney Janet Reno, after she had declined his request to prosecute Neil Rogers. Thompson gave Reno a letter at a campaign event requesting that she check a box to indicate whether she was homosexual, bisexual, or heterosexual. Thompson said that Reno then put her hand on his shoulder and responded, "I'm only interested in virile men. That's why I'm not attracted to you." He filed a police report accusing her of battery for touching him. In response, Reno asked Florida governor Bob Martinez to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate. The special prosecutor rejected the charge, concluding that it was "a political ploy". Reno was ultimately re-elected with 69% of the vote. holy poo poo, imagine willingly telling anyone about this let alone filing charges over it
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Aug 3, 2023 19:03
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Cutedge posted:Then again, we are on SomethingAwful, which created FYAD, which spawned 4chan, which led to 8chan, and then a bunch of people stormed the capitol because democrats are killing children so that they can get their adrenaline and worship satan. Oops. FYAD didn't spawn 4chan. There was a crackdown in ADTRW of hentai and pedo bait crap, which led to moot going "I'm going to set up my own anime pedophile den, where free speech isn't illegal." It ported over the edgy and weird SA posting style, but that on its own isn't enough to radicalize people. Like, it's not as if dril or the other weird twitter personalities are covertly recruiting for a nazi op.
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Aug 3, 2023 19:03
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Cutedge posted:true, he wasn't disbarred for nothing. so I guess it's less about him being vindicated and more about how the treatment he got is pretty cringe in retrospect quote:In 1990, after his election loss, Thompson began a campaign against the efforts of Switchboard of Miami, a social services group of which Reno was a board member. Thompson charged that the group placed "homosexual-education tapes" in public schools. and also insane racist poo poo against rappers (that actually got some results) So people getting as worked up as they did was lame, but people had the exact right reaction to him. He was literally trying to destroy any video game that offended his far-right values. That was his primary motivation. Him making The Gamers mad does not change the fact that he was a sack of poo poo.
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Aug 3, 2023 19:05
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posting "barnadcle jim long face" direclty led to the events of January 6
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Aug 3, 2023 19:06
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I still recall getting into such protracted debates with another gamer guy in my cubicle cluster at work when Tropes vs Women in Videogames started. He literally couldn't grasp "hyper sexualizing every female in every videogame and robbing them of agency makes videogames somewhat embarrassing to play as an adult" and endlessly harped on me as being a total prude scared of women's bodies. He was single at the time and I lived with my girlfriend. It was amazing to me at the time that her critiques were so basic and surface level and he simply could not accept that there was even room for critique. He'd make the most facile arguments about how male protagonists adhere to impossible body standards too, so videogames are equal-opportunity offenders, while ignoring that every male is encased in muscle and every female is a sexy nymph somehow able to fight alongside them. When I'd point this out he'd immediately pivot to "artistic vision" and like YEAH MY GUY. 90% OF THE ARTISTS ARE MEN. They finally just moved me to a new cubicle because I was just as stubborn as he was.
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Aug 3, 2023 19:07
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Endorph posted:So people getting as worked up as they did was lame, but people had the exact right reaction to him. He was literally trying to destroy any video game that offended his far-right values. I think the whiplash people feel is that a lot of the same people who would eagerly mock far right fundamentalist types like Jack Thompson or the Satanic Panic parents would later turn out to be very conservative alt-right types themselves. Like, nerds have taken the torch for themselves with regards to yelling at "nontraditional values" it's just called wokeism or politics now. But I guess doing the right thing is not necessarily synonymous with doing it for the right reasons. mycot fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Aug 3, 2023 |
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Aug 3, 2023 19:11
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it's still funny that gamergate 'started' on something awful. i remember opening Games, seeing that guy's screed about his ex in a new thread, and then it pretty quickly getting gassed after people started making fun of him.
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Aug 3, 2023 19:11
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drat, I can't believe it's been that long. I fully admit I never watched any of her videos; I only became aware of them from the unchecked vitriol floating around the internet directed at her, which only intensified with the GamerGate thing. I think the industry has changed for the better since she started, and I appreciate that the article takes a second to talk about how she influenced the direction some studios took with female characters in game design. Maybe her approaches were considered surface-level and basic because that was the most broad (and therefore most effective) way to address the target audience. Maybe we think it's a basic analysis because we've grown (literally) and learned and matured. Hell, maybe feminism has found more space in modern society than it had 15 years ago and we're looking at it with the benefit of hindsight, having normalized the idea that a woman wouldn't realistically wear plate armor that only barely covers her rear end and tits. Anyway, that harassment seems like some unconscionable poo poo to deal with and I hope she gets some space from that time in her life.
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Aug 3, 2023 19:27
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Remember when she made a kickstarter asking for a few thousand dollars to spend on video games? What a loser.
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Aug 3, 2023 19:39
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A) titty armor ftw B) if people are going to discuss gamergate in this thread please do us a favor and gas it immediately
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Aug 3, 2023 19:41
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Feels Villeneuve posted:A) titty armor ftw But what if the titty armor is from Blizzard and not an endearingly horny anime artist
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Aug 3, 2023 19:44
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mycot posted:But what if the titty armor is from Blizzard and not an endearingly horny anime artist
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Aug 3, 2023 19:45
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mycot posted:But what if the titty armor is from Blizzard and not an endearingly horny anime artist The titty armor makes gamers look at the female characters as objects, and through that dehumanization, subconsciously makes them more misogynist. It's the same way playing violent video game makes people school shooters.
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Aug 3, 2023 19:54
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negativeneil posted:It was amazing to me at the time that her critiques were so basic and surface level and he simply could not accept that there was even room for critique. He'd make the most facile arguments about how male protagonists adhere to impossible body standards too, so videogames are equal-opportunity offenders, while ignoring that every male is encased in muscle and every female is a sexy nymph somehow able to fight alongside them. When I'd point this out he'd immediately pivot to "artistic vision" and like YEAH MY GUY. 90% OF THE ARTISTS ARE MEN. ElectricSheep posted:Maybe her approaches were considered surface-level and basic because that was the most broad (and therefore most effective) way to address the target audience. Maybe we think it's a basic analysis because we've grown (literally) and learned and matured. Hell, maybe feminism has found more space in modern society than it had 15 years ago and we're looking at it with the benefit of hindsight, having normalized the idea that a woman wouldn't realistically wear plate armor that only barely covers her rear end and tits.
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Aug 3, 2023 19:55
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I just thought of the most artless "eh you can just put a bikini on every woman" character design but it does hit different after The Horrors.
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Aug 3, 2023 19:55
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what did bell hooks say about the character designs in xenoblade chronicles 2
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Aug 3, 2023 19:56
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Lister posted:The titty armor makes gamers look at the female characters as objects, and through that dehumanization, subconsciously makes them more misogynist. It's the same way playing violent video game makes people school shooters. Are you a Gamer(tm)?
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Aug 3, 2023 19:59
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Tiny Myers posted:God, this is my least favorite loving argument. The "men are just as sexualized, male characters also have impossible body standards!" poo poo. Had someone legit try to argue to me that Superman was just as sexualized as Catwoman and was drawn that way for the enjoyment of female readers. That friendship didn't last very long afterwards. The funny thing is in 2023 there actually is soft prettyboy Superman and the usual suspects are not happy because they don't actually want something that's Not For Them.
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Aug 3, 2023 20:00
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i played tokyo mirage sessions fe# with Judith Butler and she agreed with me that it was "mid"
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Aug 3, 2023 20:01
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i mean theres a lot of issues with this kind of conception of character design just sticking ladies into chainmail bikinis even if it doesnt fit the tone and giving them nothing to do is lame and sexist but the concept of sexy video game babe designs themselves isnt and the ways you design men for the female gaze are pretty different. obviously those guys are wrong that like, big buff orcs are there for the female gaze but they arent wrong that someone like, idk, sephiroth ff7, is absolutely designed intentionally to appeal to women. it was not actually essential to the plot that he lose his shirt for the final duel.
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Aug 3, 2023 20:01
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yeah but characters that people tell me are designed "for the female gaze" usually have a personality and admirable traits.
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Aug 3, 2023 20:14
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