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Droyer posted:You can tell it's not a gundam because it doesn't have gundam in its name. That said, IBO’s Gundams are much more sharply divided from regular mobile suits than in pretty much anywhere else in the franchise. The twin reactor system, for instance, is entirely unique to them.
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Aug 3, 2018 18:19
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Darth Walrus posted:That said, IBO’s Gundams are much more sharply divided from regular mobile suits than in pretty much anywhere else in the franchise. The twin reactor system, for instance, is entirely unique to them. Yeah even the Gundams in Wing have a shared lineage with the Leo and other grunt suits due to being designed by the same people as the Tallgeese
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Aug 3, 2018 18:25
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BizarroAzrael posted:Oh yeah, seemed like they were going to do something with her and just didn't. Would be interested to see if they had something for her all along. It's not like she was forgotten about, the main characters made a deliberate choice not to follow the path to power she offered.
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Aug 3, 2018 18:30
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drrockso20 posted:Yeah even the Gundams in Wing have a shared lineage with the Leo and other grunt suits due to being designed by the same people as the Tallgeese And the Celestial Being Gundams get a bit definitionally ambiguous thanks to the GN Archer and the Innovade suits.
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Aug 3, 2018 18:38
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Darth Walrus posted:That said, IBO’s Gundams are much more sharply divided from regular mobile suits than in pretty much anywhere else in the franchise. The twin reactor system, for instance, is entirely unique to them. The occasional mobile suits mooks or George's butler drives in G Gundam are about the only thing that might be more divided, since mobile fighters (a term which appears to be interchangable with Gundam) can channel the user's power in some manner. The pilot system in the regular mobile suits probably isn't a trace system either. That said, the Gundams in PD presumably have a shared ancestor somewhere in their development tree even if it's never made explicit. The mobile armors are even more sharply divided from the mobile suits than normal too.
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Aug 3, 2018 19:11
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tsob posted:The occasional mobile suits mooks or George's butler drives in G Gundam are about the only thing that might be more divided, since mobile fighters (a term which appears to be interchangable with Gundam) can channel the user's power in some manner. The pilot system in the regular mobile suits probably isn't a trace system either. That said, the Gundams in PD presumably have a shared ancestor somewhere in their development tree even if it's never made explicit. The mobile armors are even more sharply divided from the mobile suits than normal too. While the shared technology makes them slightly less than unique (non-Gundam suits use the Mobile Trace System, like the butler-bot and Fuunsaiki), Gundams in G are pretty well-defined - they’re mobile suits for active use by competitors in the sport called the Gundam Fight. The only exception is the Ultimate/Devil Gundam, which was named in deliberate reference to the sports vehicles.
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Aug 3, 2018 20:18
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The Butler bot definitely doesn't use a mobile trace system; we can see Bentomaru driving it and he does so using a steering wheel setup. Even to control sword thrusts. https://my.mixtape.moe/hbkdvg.webm I was also under the impression Fuunsaiki was a mobile fighter, just one a horse uses and not a mobile suit. It's even designated a mobile horse rather than a mobile suit (or fighter, to be fair).
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Aug 3, 2018 20:42
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sassassin posted:It's not like she was forgotten about, the main characters made a deliberate choice not to follow the path to power she offered. Well, Julieta made a choice. Pretty much every other main pilot in the show plunged after Mika's path to power, which is a big part of why so many of them died horribly.
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Aug 3, 2018 20:57
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It's less alaya vagina and more the gundams that are creepy when hooked into it because they destroy the user. They're kids using the best they've got and Mika loving destroys himself connecting to the expression of his own personality. Idk I though IBO gundams were pretty horrific when you reached the end and the self starting armours are a part of that.
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Aug 3, 2018 21:24
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Yeah, in IBO the Gundams are named after demons for a reason.JBP posted:alaya vagina
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Aug 3, 2018 21:30
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Darth Walrus posted:While the shared technology makes them slightly less than unique (non-Gundam suits use the Mobile Trace System, like the butler-bot and Fuunsaiki), Gundams in G are pretty well-defined - they’re mobile suits for active use by competitors in the sport called the Gundam Fight. The only exception is the Ultimate/Devil Gundam, which was named in deliberate reference to the sports vehicles. WWE uses wrestler and Superstar interchangeably, why should the Gundam fight be any different? Which makes me wonder if there's a less popular, non-Gundam promotion out there somewhere. The Bellator or Impact of mobile fighters.
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Aug 3, 2018 22:05
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HitTheTargets posted:WWE uses wrestler and Superstar interchangeably, why should the Gundam fight be any different? Well we did see that Neo France at least holds a tournament to decide who will represent them in the Gundam Fight, so I wouldn't be surprised if some of the other Neo Nation colonies do the same for theirs as well
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Aug 3, 2018 22:30
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HitTheTargets posted:WWE uses wrestler and Superstar interchangeably, why should the Gundam fight be any different? I think Gundam is a generic term for all suits in that particular sport. Hence the Rising Gundam, Neo Japan’s backup suit. There could be different mobile suit sports, though - for all we know, there’s Iron Leaguer tournaments being held up on the colonies while the Mobile Fighters tear the Earth apart in the Gundam Fights.
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Aug 4, 2018 01:00
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Darth Walrus posted:I think Gundam is a generic term for all suits in that particular sport. Hence the Rising Gundam, Neo Japan’s backup suit. There could be different mobile suit sports, though - for all we know, there’s Iron Leaguer tournaments being held up on the colonies while the Mobile Fighters tear the Earth apart in the Gundam Fights. There's almost certainly other gundam fighting sports, considering how long the Gundam fight has been going and how much power is attached to it. The colonies would really want to build up a back bench in case, say, their lead candidate got murdered right before he was meant to drop in the Gundam fight. Pro-level mobile suit sports would be great for scouting out promising candidates. Of course, by the same reasoning, inter-colony leagues are probably uncommon. You wouldn't want your hole card to be revealed before you can play it properly.
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Aug 4, 2018 01:06
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Also Neo Russia probably got into a world of poo poo in the aftermath of Gundam Fight 13 as the whole thing they were doing with arresting Gundam Fighters and throwing them into a gulag almost certainly got blown open But then that probably applies to a bunch of the other countries too as they were also pulling off all sorts of shady poo poo
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Aug 4, 2018 01:57
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I'd do terrible things for a Gundam baseball anime
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Aug 4, 2018 02:00
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drrockso20 posted:Also Neo Russia probably got into a world of poo poo in the aftermath of Gundam Fight 13 as the whole thing they were doing with arresting Gundam Fighters and throwing them into a gulag almost certainly got blown open Honestly, I figure nobody got in much trouble from that because everyone was doing shady poo poo. I mean, Neo Japan unleashed the Devil Gundam. At that point, they don't really have much ground to get angry with shady Gundam fight dealings.
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Aug 4, 2018 02:59
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poo poo, I'm starting to think the Gundam Fight isn't an ideal system of governance.
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Aug 4, 2018 03:03
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Darth Walrus posted:That said, IBO’s Gundams are much more sharply divided from regular mobile suits than in pretty much anywhere else in the franchise. The twin reactor system, for instance, is entirely unique to them. They're still derived from the same basic technology though, they just have an extra reactor stuck in them. Celestial Being's Gundams are far more divided from conventional Mobile Suits, because they use GN particles to work the Gundams like puppets.
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Aug 4, 2018 03:22
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Neddy Seagoon posted:They're still derived from the same basic technology though, they just have an extra reactor stuck in them. Celestial Being's Gundams are far more divided from conventional Mobile Suits, because they use GN particles to work the Gundams like puppets. But in season 2, everyone's fielding GN drive suits that aren't Gundams, and the divide is fuzzy again. Meanwhile, in IBO, even when a suit like the Ein comes out fighting a Gundam on even ground, it's not a Gundam because it lacks the twin reactor system. There's a hard and fast rule which 00 lacks.
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Aug 4, 2018 03:44
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chiasaur11 posted:But in season 2, everyone's fielding GN drive suits that aren't Gundams, and the divide is fuzzy again. Not really, because they aren't clean Drives. They spew out all kinds of nasty exotic particles instead of recycling them for infinite power because they lack the Topological Defect blanket the CB Drives have.
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Aug 4, 2018 04:00
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Not really, because they aren't clean Drives. They spew out all kinds of nasty exotic particles instead of recycling them for infinite power because they lack the Topological Defect blanket the CB Drives have. The fake drives aren't perpetual energy devices and poo poo pollution like coal plants but they still seem to operate the mobile suits in the exact same manner as the real drives. They can even do Trans Am and Ribbons rigs up a fake Twin Drive.
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Aug 4, 2018 04:05
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Kanos posted:The fake drives aren't perpetual energy devices and poo poo pollution like coal plants but they still seem to operate the mobile suits in the exact same manner as the real drives. They can even do Trans Am and Ribbons rigs up a fake Twin Drive. It's still a bigger divide than "we stuck a second drive in a mobile suit", because there's literally nothing stopping anyone from doing it with a brand-new mobile suit. They're not even made from exotic or idosyncractic tech; Every Gundam is made of documented and replaceable parts.
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Aug 4, 2018 04:18
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All the bad guy gundams (and tieria's one in the movie) in the show have the imperfect gn drives though and they're still considered gundams.
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Aug 4, 2018 04:22
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Neddy Seagoon posted:It's still a bigger divide than "we stuck a second drive in a mobile suit", because there's literally nothing stopping anyone from doing it with a brand-new mobile suit. They're not even made from exotic or idosyncractic tech; Every Gundam is made of documented and replaceable parts. Weren't the twin drives extremely difficult to make? I thought that's why there were only 72 and there hadn't been any others built since. Like, the Vidar had a third reactor, but it wasn't actually drawing any power from it, it was just running it to hide it's own twin drive's signature.
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Aug 4, 2018 04:26
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Neddy Seagoon posted:It's still a bigger divide than "we stuck a second drive in a mobile suit", because there's literally nothing stopping anyone from doing it with a brand-new mobile suit. They're not even made from exotic or idosyncractic tech; Every Gundam is made of documented and replaceable parts. Except syncing up two reactors is explicitly said to be a real pain in the rear end, to the point that only 72 suits have ever had the setup, and even modern Gjallarhorn has lost the ability to replicate them. Those 72 suits are the Gundams, humanity's saviors in the Calamity War. Every other mobile suit isn't. As neat a cut as you can get.
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Aug 4, 2018 04:29
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chiasaur11 posted:Except syncing up two reactors is explicitly said to be a real pain in the rear end, to the point that only 72 suits have ever had the setup, and even modern Gjallarhorn has lost the ability to replicate them. Gjallarhorn also coasted on 300-year-old technology because they were pretty much the only kids in the playground with Mobile Suits and single-drive ones are cheaper. Given they cracked sticking A-V whiskers into Adults in only a couple of years (and had a viable prototype in a span of months, if not weeks), I'd wager good money they could sync modern Ahab reactors if they really tried. You can't do something "because it's a pain in the rear end" is a lot different to "we can only make it in Jupiter's atmosphere".
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Aug 4, 2018 04:38
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Gjallarhorn also coasted on 300-year-old technology because they were pretty much the only kids in the playground with Mobile Suits and single-drive ones are cheaper. Given they cracked sticking A-V whiskers into Adults in only a couple of years (and had a viable prototype in a span of months, if not weeks), I'd wager good money they could sync modern Ahab reactors if they really tried. First, how difficult it is to build a suit isn't the same thing as how clear the divide is. You could have Gundams be built in the heart of a star by thousand year old martial arts masters, and it wouldn't be much use as a divider if they made Zakus as well. As was pointed out, the GN drive and Gundam matchup? Not one to one. Post Disaster's got a clearer divide already, which was what the whole conversation was about. But even beyond that, you're really going through some weird hoops to justify 00 being More Pure Gundam. For example, you're ignoring that McGillis made a whole speech to Gaelio about how hypocritical Gjallarhorn was, banning AV research in public, but continuing to advance it behind the scenes. He got the end product, but people like Yamazin Toka were working on similar ideas for a long, long time. Gjallarhorn being the only people who can still make Ahab reactors says something for their RnD department, considering multi-planetary megacorps still have to scavenge from their leftovers. If they aren't making more Gundams, it might not be impossible, but the cost/benefit ratio is bad enough that even the once in a generation aces are stuck with Graze variants. And speaking of Teiwaz, they really take the wind out of your "Ooh! Jupiter" sails. Sure, going out to Jupiter was a big deal in 00's timeline, but in Post Disaster, there's multiple bars and brothels right nearby. Going to Jupiter just means you're probably meeting with Legitimate Businessmen.
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Aug 4, 2018 05:14
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Droyer posted:All the bad guy gundams (and tieria's one in the movie) in the show have the imperfect gn drives though and they're still considered gundams. I'll fully cop to admitting I was thinking in the more "protagonist Gundam" sense there. chiasaur11 posted:First, how difficult it is to build a suit isn't the same thing as how clear the divide is. You could have Gundams be built in the heart of a star by thousand year old martial arts masters, and it wouldn't be much use as a divider if they made Zakus as well. As was pointed out, the GN drive and Gundam matchup? Not one to one. Post Disaster's got a clearer divide already, which was what the whole conversation was about. Yes they can in the Post-Disaster era on an Ahab-Reactored ship doing Expanse speeds, but it's not relevant there is it? In 00 getting to Jupiter's just not happening anytime soon because it's a six-month trip one-way, and the Celestial Being expedition was a massive undertaking that they only did once. (Well, twice by the movie and even then it was still a Big Deal). Gjallarhorn haven't bothered making more Gundams because they don't need them. Not to mention their (alleged) historical significance for the Seven Stars. I don't think the twin-reactor thing is that big a divide, simply because someone has simply taken two standard Ahab Reactors and made them work in tandem. There's only 72 of them in existence because by all inferences whoever made them was rushed for time with Mobile Armors slaughtering everything in their path. There's zero reason a team of scientists with an unlimited Gjallahorn budget can't replicate that in a way that's viable for mass-production.
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Aug 4, 2018 05:51
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Gundam:Mobile Suit as Hoover:Vacuum Cleaner or Kleenex:Tissue
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Aug 4, 2018 10:59
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The Turns in Turn-A can probably be as neatly divided as the Gundams in IBO, given that they're the only ones with the Moonlight Butterfly and it's non-replicable by either the Moonrace or the Amerians. Guin wanted to mass produce the Turn-A, but it was only something he expressed a hope for and not something it's ever indicated is possible. Horace is a Moonrace engineer with at least some pre-existing knowledge of nanomachines from work on the Moon and even he finds the nanomachines the Turn-A uses astounding and to be capable of things he doesn't entirely believe or understand. The Gundams in AGE might be applicable too. They're all built off the AGE system and even the Legilis takes some data from it, but it's kind of a border case since the AGE-1 and AGE-2 are built using the AGE system but continue to operate without it. The AGE-1 even gets a wear later on (the Glansa). There might be a better way to define them there I suppose, but I'm not familiar enough with AGE to say off-hand. Darth Walrus posted:I think Gundam is a generic term for all suits in that particular sport. Hence the Rising Gundam, Neo Japan’s backup suit. I'm not sure what you mean by "hence the Rising Gundam", since the Rising Gundam is, as you say, a back-up unit for that particular scenario. It's not meant for anything but the Gundam fight, and is plainly a Gundam itself even ignoring the name. Kanos posted:The fake drives aren't perpetual energy devices and poo poo pollution like coal plants but they still seem to operate the mobile suits in the exact same manner as the real drives. They can even do Trans Am and Ribbons rigs up a fake Twin Drive. His twin drive system doesn't actually square the reactor's output like a true twin drive system does; it just produces more than having two non-synced drives together would. Guy Goodbody posted:Weren't the twin drives extremely difficult to make? I thought that's why there were only 72 and there hadn't been any others built since. To be fair, 00 did the same thing; Ian was unable to get the 00 up and running himself because every attempt failed to synchronize steadily. Setsuna got it working by using two drives that were made together or something, but it still fucks up and falls out of trans-am because the synchronization isn't good enough. Which is what the Raiser was meant to help solve if I recall.
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Aug 4, 2018 13:10
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tsob posted:To be fair, 00 did the same thing; Ian was unable to get the 00 up and running himself because every attempt failed to synchronize steadily. Setsuna got it working by using two drives that were made together or something, but it still fucks up and falls out of trans-am because the synchronization isn't good enough. Which is what the Raiser was meant to help solve if I recall. Not quite. The fundamental problem was all the GN drives were unique due to the topological defect and they only had four drives to test combinations between because Setsuna had hosed off with the fifth to play lone-wolf vigilante in the Exia. It was only when he rejoined Celestial Being that they could test the Exia's against the other four and find a combination that could actually synchronize when trying the Exia's GN Drive with the 0-Gundam's. The Raiser was indeed necessary to stabilize the squared power output though.
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Aug 4, 2018 13:59
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Meanwhile over in Seed, Gundam is an OS and I don't think any suit is called "a Gundam" in-fiction.
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Aug 4, 2018 14:44
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HitTheTargets posted:Meanwhile over in Seed, Gundam is an OS and I don't think any suit is called "a Gundam" in-fiction. I think Kira nicknames his suits Gundams in-story.
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Aug 4, 2018 14:53
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I completed my first full rewatch of Wing last night, though come to think of it, it may be the first time I've actually watched the entire series through, rather than catching it erratically on Cartoon Network all those years ago. The first third was great and is exactly what I think of when I think of Wing: things exploding, people taking things way too seriously and lots of shouting "Aghhh! It's a Gundam!" before being vaporized. The second third is probably everything that pulls the series down, the pace drops sharply and things get just a little too convoluted. The final third, while perhaps not as good as the first, is an acceptable return to form. White Fang is at least somewhat less nebulous in their goals than Oz/Romefeller/New Oz/Oz Classic and balances out the factions nicely before the final conflict. It's not exactly a masterpiece but there's a definite charm to the series as a whole, especially that great 90's anime palette.  I just need to get around to watching Endless Waltz before I can buckle down and read Frozen Teardrop.
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Aug 4, 2018 15:17
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Darth Walrus posted:I think Kira nicknames his suits Gundams in-story. I liked that part of Seed. When Kira gets in the Strike "G.U.N.D.A.M." flashes on the monitor so he thinks that's what it's called. There's a moment where he calls the Strike Gundam and somebody else is like, "what?" That was back when Kira was allowed to be human.
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Aug 4, 2018 16:53
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HitTheTargets posted:Meanwhile over in Seed, Gundam is an OS and I don't think any suit is called "a Gundam" in-fiction. My favorite part of SeeD is the progressively dumber and dumber G.U.N.D.A.M. acronyms.
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Aug 4, 2018 16:58
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My favorite is how they couldn't call something a GOON, because that's sort of a real word. We get the GOOhN instead.
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Aug 4, 2018 17:48
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I’m into season 2 of my first-time-since-it-aired watch of 00 and Seravee is way way more rad than I remember.
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Aug 4, 2018 21:30
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Droyer posted:My favorite part of SeeD is the progressively dumber and dumber G.U.N.D.A.M. acronyms. Guider UNmanned Deployment Autonomic Manipulation Just rolls off the tongue doesn't it. 
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Aug 4, 2018 21:31
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