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tsob posted:Destiny doesn't focus heavily on Kira in the beginning though. He's barely in it before episode 12. Even Athrun isn't given a huge amount of focus. The new main character's backstory is that Kira killed his family. The practical consequences of Kira's philosophy are what motivates Shinn. Yeah, Kira himself isn't on screen much, but that doesn't matter.
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Sep 9, 2018 15:11
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That might influence the potential you see in the show, but it doesn't influence my enjoyment of the cast or plot. That element is not a major focus in the show (my understanding is it's basically dropped after a while), and doesn't put focus on Kira directly or indirectly for the early portion of the show. Shinn seems to take issue more with Cagalli than with Kira really.
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Sep 9, 2018 15:16
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tsob posted:Destiny doesn't focus heavily on Kira in the beginning though. He's barely in it before episode 12. Even Athrun isn't given a huge amount of focus. One of the big moments of Break The World is Athrun's showdown with the terrorist guy, and Athrun opting to leave Kira and friends to go rejoin ZAFT foreshadows a conflict that never ends up coming. Early Destiny Athrun is also styled as a mentor figure to Shinn before they waste that potential, too. tsob posted:That might influence the potential you see in the show, but it doesn't influence my enjoyment of the cast or plot. That element is not a major focus in the show (my understanding is it's basically dropped after a while), and doesn't put focus on Kira directly or indirectly for the early portion of the show. Shinn seems to take issue more with Cagalli than with Kira really. Cagalli, as the would-be leader of ORB before she is temporarily deposed, is effectively an extension of Kira's ideals and he supports her actions full-throatedly at every juncture. The one single time when Athrun calls Kira's methodology into question, Kira shouts Athrun down with the statement that "Cagalli is crying". Shinn taking issue with ORB's do-nothing policy in general and Cagalli in particular is effectively him taking issue with Kira's ideals. The show opts to never expand on this, which is why people are talking about wasted potential. Kanos fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Sep 9, 2018 |
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Sep 9, 2018 15:29
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What are you trying to argue here out of interest? I can certainly see how Shinn's character is a refutation of Kira now, but when I watched it originally back in 2004 that wasn't a concern of mine or something I cared about. I didn't watch it because it was digging in to how Kira was wrong or because I was particularly attached to SEED having watched it a while before; I watched it because the previews made Shinn look kind of interesting as an angry hothead and the action and mechanical designs seemed cool. I stopped watching around the mid-teens because I found the show boring. I don't see why my feelings on the previous show should overtly influence my feelings on SEED given it is (or at least, was) a new show focusing on a new cast. I love 0079, but I'm not really enamored of Zeta despite the same thing being roughly true of those shows. By the same token, lots of people love Zeta but aren't huge fans of 0079. I could enjoy a sequel despite not being a big of the show it's related too, or vice versa. And I could find potential in that same situation. I didn't with Destiny, and the odds are probably against it, but that doesn't mean it's impossible or anything.
tsob fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Sep 9, 2018 |
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Sep 9, 2018 16:08
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There's no actual argument, some people saw how Destiny was following up on and commenting on things from SEED and enjoyed that and liked that and were disappointed when it stopped. You went in just watching a show as if it was completely unrelated to it's predecessor or backstory, and therefore didn't see or care about stuff that I and, if he doesn't mind me speaking for him, Kanos saw and were interested in. it's just different perspectives
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Sep 9, 2018 16:37
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Well Kanos was sayingKanos posted:I mean, if you don't care about anything in SEED and you don't care about the protagonist, it probably follows that you're not going to give a poo poo about a sequel that focuses heavily on that stuff. which I don't think is necessarily true is what I'm trying to say I guess.
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Sep 9, 2018 16:39
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tsob posted:What are you trying to argue here out of interest? I can certainly see how Shinn's character is a refutation of Kira now, but when I watched it originally back in 2004 that wasn't a concern of mine or something I cared about. I didn't watch it because it was digging in to how Kira was wrong or because I was particularly attached to SEED having watched it a while before; I watched it because the previews made Shinn look kind of interesting as an angry hothead and the action and mechanical designs seemed cool. I stopped watching around the mid-teens because I found the show boring. I don't see why my feelings on the previous show should overtly influence my feelings on SEED given it is (or at least, was) a new show focusing on a new cast. I love 0079, but I'm not really enamored of Zeta despite the same thing being roughly true of those shows. By the same token, lots of people love Zeta but aren't huge fans of 0079. I could enjoy a sequel despite not being a big of the show it's related too, or vice versa. And I could find potential in that same situation. I didn't with Destiny, and the odds are probably against it, but that doesn't mean it's impossible or anything. I think some lines of discussion are getting mixed up. To clarify: Lots of people see potential in Destiny for numerous reasons. One of those reasons is that a lot of the early setup in Destiny can very easily be taken to be the show taking a critical look at the philosophy that the "good guys" espoused in the previous show. This is relevant, especially since those "good guys" from the previous show are major returning characters who have huge, prominent places in the plot of Destiny, and the early parts of Destiny seem to signal very strongly that they're interested in pursuing this line of thought before they ultimately decide not to. Destiny becomes boring early on specifically because they can't decide what they're trying to say with the show, so Shinn goes from angry-for-a-reason to just generically angry and the show is never interested in contradicting or challenging the viewpoint of the Archangel crew so we spend half of the show's runtime watching characters who have no arc to speak of because their arc finished in a previous series. Them pursuing this line for the story doesn't necessarily require the viewer to be a SEED megafan to be engaging or interesting. Shinn's discussion with Cagalli about ORB policy is a pretty good example of how you can introduce this conflict to a new audience without them having to give a poo poo about pre-Destiny Kira, for example. The conflicting ideals of pacifism vs aggression is something that numerous Gundam shows have tackled with varying degrees of success, after all. Regarding my Char comment, I absolutely have interacted with people who watched Zeta with no contact with UC before then and have no idea why they spend so much time focusing on who Quattro is or why it's a big deal, so stuff like the big speech at Dakar which are enormous moments for people who know the score just fall completely flat. Similarly, CCA is so tied in to the Char vs Amuro thing that if you're not pre-invested in that it's just a pretty "robots punch each other for an hour or so" popcorn film. Kanos fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Sep 9, 2018 |
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Sep 9, 2018 16:48
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Destiny doesn't deserve this much thought.
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Sep 9, 2018 17:48
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I've never seen Destiny and had no interest in seeing it until you guys started talking up the first arc, which actually makes it sound interesting because Kira's weird no-kill rule is part of what killed SEED for me. (Along with one battle where the OYW reference factor immediately went from 'hamfisted homage' to full chinese knockoff) That said, I have been half-watching the SEED Remaster recently while doing Gunpla and it's not quite as bad as I remember. Though of course that is partly helped by the fact I'm not looking at the screen.  I think I may actually take a crack at Destiny once I'm finished with SEED, god help me. And while I have aired my unwavering hatred every week in the series thread, I'll add to the comments made here too. Divers is unforgivably awful. They created a universe that gave maximum potential for silly self-referential franchise antics and made a show in it about a boring kid and his boring friends doing nothing while everybody they meet is instantly enamoured by him. It's arguably not even about gunpla battles somehow, they were just something that occasionally happened in the first half of the series before dropping to an even rarer occurence in the second half. Furthermore the entire second half of the series relies on a dramatic reveal about a certain character that everybody figured out in episode 1. Not that you'll care anyway because said character is subjugated and sidelined so much throughout the series, you will find it very difficult to feel anything for them. I just hate Build Divers so much. 
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Sep 9, 2018 18:07
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The Notorious ZSB posted:Destiny doesn't deserve this much thought. Yeah
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Sep 9, 2018 18:16
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RillAkBea posted:And while I have aired my unwavering hatred every week in the series thread, I'll add to the comments made here too. Divers is unforgivably awful. They created a universe that gave maximum potential for silly self-referential franchise antics and made a show in it about a boring kid and his boring friends doing nothing while everybody they meet is instantly enamoured by him. It's arguably not even about gunpla battles somehow, they were just something that occasionally happened in the first half of the series before dropping to an even rarer occurence in the second half. Furthermore the entire second half of the series relies on a dramatic reveal about a certain character that everybody figured out in episode 1. Not that you'll care anyway because said character is subjugated and sidelined so much throughout the series, you will find it very difficult to feel anything for them. I just hate Build Divers so much. What really kills me is that all the one-off adventure episodes were fun and enjoyable. It could've been so easily a good Cute Girls Doing Cute Things(Gunpla Edition) series
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Sep 9, 2018 18:20
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They're making a Unicorn sequel as well as Narrative and Hathaway's Flash? I thought Narrative was just the next volume of Unicorn with a different name.
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Sep 9, 2018 19:39
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What was the reveal in divers
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Sep 9, 2018 22:21
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Xarbala posted:What was the reveal in divers I am going to assume, without ever having watched the show, that one of the characters is an AI.
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Sep 9, 2018 22:30
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Xarbala posted:What was the reveal in divers The mysterious girl who only appeared in the game, could directly manipulate the code, and had no grasp of social norms turned out to be a baby AI.
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Sep 9, 2018 22:38
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ImpAtom posted:I am going to assume, without ever having watched the show, that one of the characters is an AI. Yeah. Every time a Gunpla is scanned a tiny amount of extra junk data* is created and over time it's accumulated into Sarah. Now she's growing on her exponentially and is going to crash the game, so they have to kill her. *it's actually the builder's love for their Gunpla
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Sep 9, 2018 22:39
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The real twist is that there's a Gundam series that ImpAtom hasn't watched. 
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Sep 9, 2018 22:57
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Can you blame him though
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Sep 9, 2018 23:01
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Xarbala posted:Can you blame him though Envy's kind of like blame, right?
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Sep 9, 2018 23:03
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Raxivace posted:The real twist is that there's a Gundam series that ImpAtom hasn't watched. I can't explain why but I just could not make myself give a drat about Divers and nothing anyone has said about it made me want to devote the time to watching it.
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Sep 9, 2018 23:10
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ImpAtom posted:I can't explain why but I just could not make myself give a drat about Divers and nothing anyone has said about it made me want to devote the time to watching it. That's easy to explain. The show is so aggressively dull that you can feel how dull it is without even having to watch it. I haven't seen a single person say something good about it beyond one post I'm entirely sure was a really half-assed troll attempt, because there's nothing good to say about it, it fails at even being entertainingly bad.
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Sep 9, 2018 23:13
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Blaze Dragon posted:That's easy to explain. The show is so aggressively dull that you can feel how dull it is without even having to watch it. I haven't seen a single person say something good about it beyond one post I'm entirely sure was a really half-assed troll attempt, because there's nothing good to say about it, it fails at even being entertainingly bad. I think this is pretty unfair. It absolutely has some very fun one-off episodes, enough for me to say that the show has a kernel of goodness in there that isn't really realized. The main problems are that basically every single episode related to the main plot is dull as dishwater and the protagonist is a personality black hole who they completely failed to make interesting in any way, and the show is unfortunately very interested in pursuing the main plot instead of having fun gunpla adventures in an infinite MMO world. Basically I wouldn't say there's nothing good to say about it at all, but I would agree that for the most part it's extremely boring and as a whole product it's definitely not worth the time.
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Sep 10, 2018 00:03
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Kanos posted:I think this is pretty unfair. It absolutely has some very fun one-off episodes, enough for me to say that the show has a kernel of goodness in there that isn't really realized. The main problems are that basically every single episode related to the main plot is dull as dishwater and the protagonist is a personality black hole who they completely failed to make interesting in any way, and the show is unfortunately very interested in pursuing the main plot instead of having fun gunpla adventures in an infinite MMO world. This, all of this. I was going to make a post about the few positive morsels in Build Divers, but then you more or less made it for me Kanos so kudos. Build Divers has some positives, but they're few and faint and do not outweigh the morass of mehness that fills up the show. Build Divers is basically 4/10 television, not good but not quite bad enough to be worth the energy to hate. The show really doesn't seem to be trying and in some ways that's the worst condemnation I can make of it.
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Sep 10, 2018 03:17
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The first two episodes felt like a local anesthetic.
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Sep 10, 2018 04:25
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Omnicrom posted:This, all of this. I was going to make a post about the few positive morsels in Build Divers, but then you more or less made it for me Kanos so kudos. Divers kills me, because I'm its target audience and I just cannot find a single solitary gently caress to give about that show, to the point that I think i'm about five episodes behind and I don't know that I ever plan to catch up. There is absolutely room for an AU Gundam show with a VR setting, and there is a ton of interesting angles you could take that show, playing around with the vaguarities of VR vs real life and the like. Eve Online, But Gundam, would be a fantastic sort of clusterfuck that could be incredibly interesting and dramatic even with the low stakes of no one actually dying. Instead we get a series where the lead is just such an incredible void of charisma that it actively makes every aspect of the show worse.
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Sep 10, 2018 06:28
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Omnicrom posted:This, all of this. I was going to make a post about the few positive morsels in Build Divers, but then you more or less made it for me Kanos so kudos. The thing that I find most interesting about Build Divers's failure is how isolated its successes are. Like, it's a show, it has continuity, so when it does something right it should form into something larger, like a good character, or an interesting setting, or... something. But when it has something less terrible, it just feels like itself, with no impact on the overall show.
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Sep 10, 2018 07:47
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chiasaur11 posted:The thing that I find most interesting about Build Divers's failure is how isolated its successes are. Like, it's a show, it has continuity, so when it does something right it should form into something larger, like a good character, or an interesting setting, or... something. But when it has something less terrible, it just feels like itself, with no impact on the overall show. Build Divers is less than the sum of its parts.
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Sep 10, 2018 13:40
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Forgive my ignorance of most anime trends, but the way you guys describe Build Divers makes me think that it's a Gundam themed Sword Art Online inspired show that came out five years after SAO was relevant.
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Sep 10, 2018 17:35
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The big conflict around build divers is whether a sentient human level Artificial intelligence should be destroyed so that people can keep playing an mmo. The show tries to frame this as a real question. The show is just so god drat dumb. Monaghan fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Sep 10, 2018 |
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Sep 10, 2018 17:42
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How fast are ships and mobile suits in the UC? Like, what is the travel time between Sides? How far apart are ships when they engage and launch suits?
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Sep 10, 2018 17:56
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So we went from "holy poo poo making plastic robots fight using future-physics because this hobby is awesome!" to "Artificial Intelligence need people rights DRAMA!" in just five years.Waffles Inc. posted:How fast are ships and mobile suits in the UC? Like, what is the travel time between Sides? How far apart are ships when they engage and launch suits? Compared to today's standards, extremely fast. When not in atmosphere a Mobile Suit can travel at fairly ridiculous speeds. According to the specs on the Gundam Wiki, the RX-78-2 could achieve a rate of acceleration equal to 0.93 G, while it's pair of main thrusters each provided 24000 kilograms of thrust, supplemented by four secondary thrusters providing 1870kg of thrust for attitude control. The point is that mobile suits are loving fast. However, travel times can become longer due to Minovsky particle density loving with long range sensors and the sheer amount of debris orbiting earth in "shoal zones" from the wreckage of fleets and ruined colonies. Additionally, fuel consumption is an issue for UC suits. It's all well and good to fly at ungodly fast velocities but even with a microfusion reactor, suits run out of propellant. That's why you see suits like the Psyco Zaku and the Sazabi and Sinanju with big fuel pods strapped to their backpacks. Mobile Suit engagements tend to be very close range, again due to minovksy particles making long range detection next to impossible. Close range in space probably meaning under 1000 kilometers, and often less than 10km. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Sep 10, 2018 |
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Sep 10, 2018 17:58
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Caros posted:There is absolutely room for an AU Gundam show with a VR setting, and there is a ton of interesting angles you could take that show, playing around with the vaguarities of VR vs real life and the like. The Gundam EXA manga is a more successful take on VR Gundam, though it plays out as more of a Sliders/Quantum Leap style dimension hopping quest throughout all the Gundam franchises rather than any sort of game/tournament setting. It's not a masterpiece but it's fun and it makes the visits to each universe worthwhile, something which Build Divers completely failed to do. Arcsquad12 posted:Forgive my ignorance of most anime trends, but the way you guys describe Build Divers makes me think that it's a Gundam themed Sword Art Online inspired show that came out five years after SAO was relevant.
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Sep 10, 2018 18:02
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In fairness, we don't know for sure that Sara is sentient. She could just be simulating the appearance of sentience.
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Sep 10, 2018 18:02
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Arcsquad12 posted:Forgive my ignorance of most anime trends, but the way you guys describe Build Divers makes me think that it's a Gundam themed Sword Art Online inspired show that came out five years after SAO was relevant. And at the same time as a new SAO, which just made it look worse. Nobody in Build Divers is a patch on the pink devil.
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Sep 10, 2018 18:39
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Caros posted:Divers kills me, because I'm its target audience and I just cannot find a single solitary gently caress to give about that show, to the point that I think i'm about five episodes behind and I don't know that I ever plan to catch up. Heck, even something like a scripted "Top Chef" but VR Gunpla would be interesting to watch.
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Sep 10, 2018 18:54
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chiasaur11 posted:And at the same time as a new SAO, which just made it look worse. Nobody in Build Divers is a patch on the pink devil. Yeah, the crack I made upthread about Keichi Sigsawa was because he wrote the Light Novels that were adapted into the Gun Gale Online anime that recently wrapped and that show was literally the best thing to ever have the words "Sword Art Online" in the title. Also as Chiasaur is pointing out GGO does way more with its setting and conceit than BD does.
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Sep 10, 2018 19:03
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It's baffling that both Try and Divers drop the ball so hard, since literally all they need to do to be a good follow-up to Build Fighters is be "Build Fighters but with different mobile suits and a new antagonist."
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Sep 10, 2018 19:08
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Lemon-Lime posted:It's baffling that both Try and Divers drop the ball so hard, since literally all they need to do to be a good follow-up to Build Fighters is be "Build Fighters but with different mobile suits and a new antagonist." Is it though? If anything, it's insane the original Build Fighters worked, as a far more blatant half-hour ad for Gunpla than any Gundam series prior. I don't mean this because I think merchandise-driven shows are bad, but because of how it seems like the exact kind of poo poo that'd get Bandai to micromanage everything because we gotta sell really hard, gently caress your creative vision. BF being allowed to be a series is what's impressive. That, after its success, following series would be watered down and more controlled by people who care far more about getting money than allowing writers to be writers is, sadly, to be expected. That it only got worse with time is, too, since it's just becoming more of an ad, and nothing short of a complete failure to sell Gunpla may change that.
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Sep 10, 2018 19:33
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Solkanar512 posted:Heck, even something like a scripted "Top Chef" but VR Gunpla would be interesting to watch. I genuinely think that the best thing for the Build franchise to do is to do a different genre show in the Gunpla obsessed world it has established. Like a Gunpla romance or cooking show.
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Sep 10, 2018 19:38
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Lemon-Lime posted:It's baffling that both Try and Divers drop the ball so hard, since literally all they need to do to be a good follow-up to Build Fighters is be "Build Fighters but with different mobile suits and a new antagonist." The problem is that most of the talent behind GBF ran off to work on a bigger franchise instead (or tried to do both at once, which likely reduced the attention they could give to the Build franchise). The new folks and those left behind just couldn’t sustain that quality.
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Sep 10, 2018 19:43
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