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horse mans posted:haha you suck atp osting not my fault radium sucks at php
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Feb 27, 2013 18:51
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yaoi prophet posted:no chocckakacokacoka just sucks at quote nesting YOU SHUT YOUR WHORE MOUTH
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Feb 27, 2013 18:52
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now that page 420 is over with, lets talk about how great objective-c and cocoa touch is
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Feb 27, 2013 18:52
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MononcQc posted:GC pausing is an issue as soon as you have any hard real time constraints (and some soft ones).
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Feb 27, 2013 19:01
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i'm the current hipste
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Feb 27, 2013 19:03
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lets just use object pools when you want to use an object from the pool call malloc() and when your done with it call free()!
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Feb 27, 2013 19:10
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Progressive JPEG posted:this sounds like a situation where you probably shouldn't have picked java We haven't. We picked Erlang  GC is a very neat thing when you can afford it and it's a non-broken implementation.
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Feb 27, 2013 19:17
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Internaut! posted:have things changed, can you get high performance graphics out of java now LWJGL gives you a native OpenGL as well as APIs for input devices, audio and windowed or fullscreen rendering surface, it's what minescraft uses
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Feb 27, 2013 19:39
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Idea: put that note about syntax from the book online, but replace the constructive suggestions for dealing with the ant turd tokens with a link to LFE 
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Feb 27, 2013 19:54
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Otto Skorzeny posted:Idea: put that note about syntax from the book online, but replace the constructive suggestions for dealing with the ant turd tokens with a link to LFE Linking to LFE would be good idea. I like LFE. I'm a part time lisp weenie. LFE websites for those who have no idea: http://lfe.github.com/
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Feb 27, 2013 20:07
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MononcQc posted:GC pausing is an issue as soon as you have any hard real time constraints (and some soft ones). it's a problem once you get your heap gets SO HUEG also. Azul sells a jvm that doesn't need to stop the world ever but afaict it works by amortizing the old gen compaction over allocations. it doesn't improve throughput
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Feb 27, 2013 20:26
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Nomnom Cookie posted:it's a problem once you get your heap gets SO HUEG also. Azul sells a jvm that doesn't need to stop the world ever but afaict it works by amortizing the old gen compaction over allocations. it doesn't improve throughput In many cases, it is a huge win to slightly lower throughput in exchange for a guaranteed upper bound on the worst-case GC pause length. When I was fiddling with improving the garbage collector for the Parrot VM (which someone else wound up doing much better than I could have, although it all came to nought as the project was falling apart for other reasons), I got pointed to a bunch of work by David Bacon at IBM on real-time garbages collectors (many of them in the context of the Jikes research VM), much of which you can find at http://researcher.watson.ibm.com/researcher/view_pubs.php?person=us-bacon&t=1 . It's interesting stuff.
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Feb 27, 2013 20:43
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Win8 Hetro Experie posted:LWJGL gives you a native OpenGL as well as APIs for input devices, audio and windowed or fullscreen rendering surface, it's what minescraft uses yea but doesnt minecraft pin a modern machine while rendering like 1000 cubes with low res textures if that's best case java graphics then I don't think it's gonna take over from c++ anytime soon
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Feb 27, 2013 21:11
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Internaut! posted:yea but doesnt minecraft pin a modern machine while rendering like 1000 cubes with low res textures minecraft also (used to?) do some really stupid poo poo like sort an entire list to get the smallest element every frame. i'm unsure how much of minecraft is 'java bad' and how much is 'notch bad'
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Feb 27, 2013 21:32
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MononcQc posted:Not sure if this counts as 'serious', but it is a C/C++ garbage collector:
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Feb 27, 2013 21:41
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Internaut! posted:yea but doesnt minecraft pin a modern machine while rendering like 1000 cubes with low res textures every laughs about 8-bit textured cubes, but minecraft is a 100% mutable world with no offline computation of lighting or space partitioning trees or any poo poo like that. I don't think there is a modern game engine that could do that without falling over and dying.
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Feb 27, 2013 21:51
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crazypenguin posted:every laughs about 8-bit textured cubes, but minecraft is a 100% mutable world with no offline computation of lighting or space partitioning trees or any poo poo like that. lol
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Feb 27, 2013 21:54
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crazypenguin posted:every laughs about 8-bit textured cubes, but minecraft is a 100% mutable world with no offline computation of lighting or space partitioning trees or any poo poo like that. of course there's space partitioning, the whole world is divided into chunks
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Feb 27, 2013 21:56
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horse mans posted:of course there's space partitioning, the whole world is divided into chunks but it isn't a tree
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Feb 27, 2013 21:56
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Sweeper posted:but it isn't a tree It is too, it is like oct of them. Also I really admire your av. Also serious q. are Minecraft's octrees sparse? What about in the woods with no one around?
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Feb 27, 2013 21:58
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i still think minecraft is impressive in that multiplayer is not just completely broken.Bream posted:Also serious q. are Minecraft's octrees sparse? What about in the woods with no one around? It's surface based sparseness. You can clip through rock by godmoding and dropping sand on yourself. You can only see edges between surface, rock, different ores, etc. Lava/water still looks like a solid piece because it's all edge.
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Feb 27, 2013 22:16
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horse mans posted:of course there's space partitioning, the whole world is divided into chunks i mean of the type that lets you avoid drawing vast swaths of the world because they aren't visible. like, minecraft draws all the caves below you. it doesn't try to figure out that you can't see them from the surface. it sounds stupid, but as far as I've been able to tell, everyone who has tried to make it avoid attempting to draw those caves has wound up with a slower renderer. Bream posted:Also serious q. are Minecraft's octrees sparse? What about in the woods with no one around? Unless I've been seriously misinformed, it doesn't use octrees.
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Feb 27, 2013 22:44
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not that i wanna get into this but it really looks like you're praising a lovely brute force method with slack-jawed amazement
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Feb 27, 2013 22:48
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crazypenguin posted:i mean of the type that lets you avoid drawing vast swaths of the world because they aren't visible. that's not a lack of space partitioning, that's a lack of occlusion
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Feb 27, 2013 22:51
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JawnV6 posted:not that i wanna get into this but it really looks like you're praising a lovely brute force method with slack-jawed amazement me? wasn't praising anything, except maybe the jvm. the jvm is pretty sweet. 8-bit textured cubes belies how hard it is to render fully dynamic scenes is all. horse mans posted:that's not a lack of space partitioning, that's a lack of occlusion a rendering engine typically uses a space partitioning of the static parts of a scene to do occlusion.
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Feb 27, 2013 23:01
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Gonna talk out of my rear end for a minute here, but isn't space partitioning usually used to determine the potentially visible set, after which you do real occlusion culling? I don't know what I'm talking about I don't even know what the internet is.
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Feb 27, 2013 23:06
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the little i know about how minecraft's rendering has evolved is that they integrated some of the work done in optimine and maybe mcregion to do things better/faster. also more things have been written to use the graphics card. basically ask scaevolus because he knows a ton about minecraft.
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Feb 27, 2013 23:10
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JawnV6 posted:not that i wanna get into this but it really looks like you're praising a lovely brute force method with slack-jawed amazement are we talking about garbage collecting still or is this about minecraft
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Feb 27, 2013 23:24
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mein kraft
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Feb 28, 2013 00:03
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Gazpacho posted:i thought FamDav was talking about C++11 compliant gc which will never happen what's the issue? got a link?
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Feb 28, 2013 00:10
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awesmoe posted:are we talking about garbage collecting still or is this about minecraft multiplayer minecraft a.k.a. garbage distribution MeruFM posted:i still think minecraft is impressive in that multiplayer is not just completely broken. i played a lot of minecraft and vividly remember when it was completely broken
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Feb 28, 2013 00:11
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i used to play minecraft beta on an ancient single-core p4 system. it ran well and i had fun building e-legos & killing e-critters for a dozen or two hours a few weeks ago i tried playing it again on a more modern intel system with equivalent clock speed and 2 cores. it wouldn't run without hitching every few seconds, even after i tried some optimization mod 
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Feb 28, 2013 00:49
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Internaut! posted:yea but doesnt minecraft pin a modern machine while rendering like 1000 cubes with low res textures it links with the same OpenGL windows DLL as native executables and does next to nothing in terms of abstractions for 3D rendering, it's not a 3D engine besides, OpenGL comes as a huge list of hundreds of free C methods and their preprocessor constants, all in the same global module, all making changes to the global variables inside the graphics driver, right? so C++ isn't going to take over graphics programming from C anytime soon, either
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Feb 28, 2013 01:19
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Win8 Hetro Experie posted:besides, OpenGL comes as a huge list of hundreds of free C methods and their preprocessor constants, all in the same global module, all making changes to the global variables inside the graphics driver, right? OpenGL: a giant state machine of hate
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Feb 28, 2013 01:59
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i'm pretty sure minecraft is using the giant state machine of hate style of opengl, but i thought that modern opengl, and opengl es at least gave you the option to avoid that. although i guess it still exists, and it probably seems better just by comparison. minecraft is also doing basically nothing that you would generally do in a 3d engine. it relies on the fact you can throw shittons of vertices at a modern gpu and barely break a sweat. i could've sworn they aren't even using VBOs, instead using old fashioned vertex arrays because they are the one edge case where vertex arrays are faster. for as terrible as notch is, what minecraft actually achieves is pretty impressive technically, but the xbox arcade version is definitely not java, and runs extremely well especially given the anemic ram in the 360. i suspect if you backported the xbla version to pc, it'd blow away the java version in every respect. for what it's worth, notch hasn't had any involvement with minecraft in a while now and both stability and performance have seemed to improve in every way since jeb started maintaining it. i'm theoretically in game dev, even though i only know enough c to be dangerous (and i'm extremely dangerous in c++) and barely understand how opengl works, so maybe i'm just dumb, so i'd love if someone who knows i'm dumb could tell me better.
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Feb 28, 2013 02:52
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PENETRATION TESTS posted:what's the issue? got a link? 2. afaict c++11 garbage collection is impossible to integrate with legacy code that uses allocation primitives other than "new" because the runtime is allowed to delete anything that is not "safely derived" from a new'ed (nude) pointer
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Feb 28, 2013 03:22
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Gazpacho posted:1. c++ is no longer "hip" and no one is driving it for new development, they're too busy reimplementing the universe in other languages because they read a blog posting that said c++ was hard. this includes the historical #1 driver microsoft 3. nobody needs it, nobody cares
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Feb 28, 2013 03:40
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Base Emitter posted:3. nobody needs it, nobody cares Except for every bideo ganes.
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Feb 28, 2013 03:47
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Bream posted:Except for every bideo ganes. that's right, programming in c++ magically causes garbage collectors to behave exactly as you want them to and no bideogmae engine ever supports other languages for their apis
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Feb 28, 2013 03:54
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Base Emitter posted:that's right, programming in c++ magically causes garbage collectors to behave exactly as you want them to and no bideogmae engine ever supports other languages for their apis Ha ha, disregard my dumbs. I thought you were saying that nobody was worrying about gc in c++ because nobody needed c++, not nobody needed gc.
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Feb 28, 2013 03:57
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