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System Metternich posted:Ich hoffe Randler schimpft mich jetzt nicht wenn ich was falsch dargestellt haben sollte Vorsatz (=Kenntnis der Umstände, die den Tatbestand erfüllen, vgl. § 16 Abs. 1 Satz 1 StGB) ist bei Tötungsdelikten insofern relevant, als dass gemäß § 15 StGB grundsätzlich nur vorsätzliches Handeln strafbar ist, außer der Tatbestand bedroht ausdrücklich auch die fahrlässige Begehung mit Strafe. Die ältere Abgrenzung war deshalb auch nie "Tötung mit Vorsatz/Tötung ohne Vorsatz" (außer zu Zeiten, in denen man Vorsatz als subj. Tatbestand bzw. Schuldelement nicht nutzte) sondern "Vorsätzliche "geplante" Tötung"/"Vorsätzliche Tötung im Affekt". 
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Jul 2, 2017 21:21
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Randler posted:Vorsatz (=Kenntnis der Umstände, die den Tatbestand erfüllen, vgl. § 16 Abs. 1 Satz 1 StGB) ist bei Tötungsdelikten insofern relevant, als dass gemäß § 15 StGB grundsätzlich nur vorsätzliches Handeln strafbar ist, außer der Tatbestand bedroht ausdrücklich auch die fahrlässige Begehung mit Strafe. Die ältere Abgrenzung war deshalb auch nie "Tötung mit Vorsatz/Tötung ohne Vorsatz" (außer zu Zeiten, in denen man Vorsatz als subj. Tatbestand bzw. Schuldelement nicht nutzte) sondern "Vorsätzliche "geplante" Tötung"/"Vorsätzliche Tötung im Affekt". (Sorry, wenn du das im gequoteten schon gesagt hast, wenn ja, bin ich zu dumm, um es zu finden.)
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Jul 2, 2017 21:36
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Cingulate posted:Was kriegt man für Tötung ohne Vorsatz? § 222 StGB: Wer durch Fahrlässigkeit den Tod eines Menschen verursacht, wird mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu fünf Jahren oder mit Geldstrafe bestraft.
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Jul 2, 2017 21:42
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Danke!
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Jul 2, 2017 21:49
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Welches Tötungsdelikt (ohne Vorsatz) ist denn bitte nicht mit einer Strafe bedroht? Learn this one weird old trick to kill a person and get away with it(judges HATE it)
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Jul 2, 2017 21:50
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I always thought that Totschlag is when you e.g. beat up a person, and they die. So the idea is, you wanted to hurt the person, but you didn't want to kill them specifically. Murder would then be if you intentionally kill a person regardless of motive or circumstance -- unless it's some kind of self-defence or temporary insanity type situation. If you try to kill a person but they don't die, that's attempted murder. If you intend to hurt a person Totschlag style and they survive, that's Vorsätzliche Körperverletzung or something. I still think that's a reasonable standard honestly. Let me rewrite the murder paragraph.
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Jul 2, 2017 21:53
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pidan posted:I always thought that Totschlag is when you e.g. beat up a person, and they die. So the idea is, you wanted to hurt the person, but you didn't want to kill them specifically. Murder would then be if you intentionally kill a person regardless of motive or circumstance -- unless it's some kind of self-defence or temporary insanity type situation. If you try to kill a person but they don't die, that's attempted murder. If you intend to hurt a person Totschlag style and they survive, that's Vorsätzliche Körperverletzung or something. § 227 Körperverletzung mit Todesfolge (1) Verursacht der Täter durch die Körperverletzung (§§ 223 bis 226a) den Tod der verletzten Person, so ist die Strafe Freiheitsstrafe nicht unter drei Jahren. (2) In minder schweren Fällen ist auf Freiheitsstrafe von einem Jahr bis zu zehn Jahren zu erkennen. Die Todesfolge muss mindestens fahrlässig sein (vgl. § 18 StGB).
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Jul 2, 2017 21:54
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Randler posted:§ 227 Yeah, I thought that one was if you hurt the person semi-accidentally or in such a way that you wouldn't reasonably have expected that they might die. Like if you punch them in the chest and they have a heart condition and die of an arrythmia as a result of your punch. How you would prove that I don't really know, so I guess it's a good thing I'm not involved in the legal system. But when you plot to kill your wife regardless of motivation that should be murder imho, Totschlag is for fistfights or something.
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Jul 2, 2017 22:17
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So what does this have to do with the Chechen? Was he found to have acted without Vorsatz?
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Jul 2, 2017 22:23
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:So what does this have to do with the Chechen? Was he found to have acted without Vorsatz? He was found to have acted without a Niedere Absicht or something, because apparently the judge thinks in Chechen culture killing women is honorable and expected. Vorsatz doesn't even come into it, that's what we've been discussing.
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Jul 2, 2017 22:26
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:So what does this have to do with the Chechen? Was he found to have acted without Vorsatz? Ja. Das Gericht konnte nicht feststellen, dass er auch bezüglich des Tatbestandsmerkmals "aus niederen Beweggründen" Vorsatz gehabt hatte. Deshalb ist es nur ein Totschlag und kein Mord.
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Jul 2, 2017 22:27
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pidan posted:He was found to have acted without a Niedere Absicht or something, because apparently the judge thinks in Chechen culture killing women is honorable and expected. Well the court was in Germany so that shouldn't count.
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Jul 2, 2017 22:28
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Clearly the solution is to go full Gatling and put things right by increasing the deaths from war and violence until they overtake fatness and smoking. For example, by starting another world war.
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Jul 2, 2017 22:30
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Yeah, terrorism doesn't kill that many people. But the vast majority of the heart disease and cancer victims are basically dying of old age. Terrorism can kill anybody anytime, and over the last years has mostly targeted young and healthy people. I mean, the traffic accident comparison is at least kind of relevant, but this chart is pretty ridiculous. I'm sure during the second world war more people in Europe died of starvation, fighting, old age and accidents than died in death camps, but that doesn't mean we can ignore the camps.
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Jul 2, 2017 22:36
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Randler posted:Ja. Das Gericht konnte nicht feststellen, dass er auch bezüglich des Tatbestandsmerkmals "aus niederen Beweggründen" Vorsatz gehabt hatte. Deshalb ist es nur ein Totschlag und kein Mord. But then this comes down to "niedere Beweggründe" being a badly thought out Vorraussetzung for the Mordtatbestand and therefore the Mordparagraph being poo poo due to relying on subjective concepts. Why did you bring up Vorsatz?
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Jul 2, 2017 22:38
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:But then this comes down to "niedere Beweggründe" being a badly thought out Vorraussetzung for the Mordtatbestand and therefore the Mordparagraph being poo poo due to relying on subjective concepts. Why did you bring up Vorsatz? Weil ich deinen ursprünglichen Beitrag mehrdeutig fand und gerne wissen wollte, ob Du nur meintest, dass der aktuelle Mordparagraph Müll ist, oder ob Du das Erfordernis von Vorsatz für Straftaten (auch) reformieren wolltest.
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Jul 2, 2017 22:42
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pidan posted:Yeah, terrorism doesn't kill that many people. But the vast majority of the heart disease and cancer victims are basically dying of old age. Terrorism can kill anybody anytime, and over the last years has mostly targeted young and healthy people. I mean, of course, there is to almost everyone something very different between "I die because I decide to eat cake and smoke rather than exercise" and " die because *somebody else* decides he hates my freedom to eat cake and smoke". But still, the extreme difference in numbers matter. First and foremost, how ridiculously low everyone's chances of getting hurt by a terrorist are. Conversely, your chances of dying to violence during WW2 were fairly sizable.
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Jul 2, 2017 22:51
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aphid_licker posted:AfD losing votes is 100% due to the refugee numbers dropping and nothing else. It's a single-issue party. And in other countries conservative parties taking all the lovely xenophobic ideas from right-wing parties and implementing them with a bit of a nicer veneer. Also, while the economy doesn't exactly soar, and not a lot of the improvement makes it down to the average tax payer, it did and does improve and in the end a lot does boil down to economic uncertainty. If you lighten that, you lighten the perceived need to kick down on the people further down on the economic and social ladder. pidan posted:Yeah, terrorism doesn't kill that many people. But the vast majority of the heart disease and cancer victims are basically dying of old age. Terrorism can kill anybody anytime, and over the last years has mostly targeted young and healthy people. I've found only numbers for the US, but I assume crappy health system aside, they are similar in Europe: About 9200 people under 40 die to cancer every year. And 53000 get cancer of some form, which means putting your life on hold for a long time with the a constant fear of dying and feeling like dying during chemo/Stammzellentherapie. Decius fucked around with this message at 05:46 on Jul 3, 2017 |
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Jul 3, 2017 05:30
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It'd be hell to calculate, but I'd love to see some sort of cost/benefit analysis of investing money in combatting terror (no quotation marks here) vs investing it in either basic medical science (cancer moonshots), or just generally in health. Eg it is at least conceptually possible that paying billions to put ordnance in Afghanistan, or maybe equipping BND guys with better Bundestrojaners, is actively increasing our life expectancy. But what's the exchange rate? Then, the next question would be, how much more stress and fear, which make our lives shorter (and worse), do these euros give us by keeping terror salient to us? By how much are GaussianCopulas constant reminders that somewhere in Germany, at this very second, an immigrant is raping somebody who could be your sister, making your life shorter? Cingulate fucked around with this message at 07:24 on Jul 3, 2017 |
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Jul 3, 2017 07:17
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Cingulate posted:It'd be hell to calculate, but I'd love to see some sort of cost/benefit analysis of investing money in combatting terror (no quotation marks here) vs investing it in either basic medical science (cancer moonshots), or just generally in health. I know Stephen Colbert has been using this metric a lot because of the US health Care reform situation. But "how many lives will this save" is not normally how we weigh political issues. Politics is about creating an orderly society, which includes a lot of things including some health and safety issues, but it's not primarily about saving lives or increasing life expectancy. And as a look at the state of Syria will confirm, roving bands of militants planting bombs and beating people up for cutting their beards is actually much worse for society than insufficient healthcare or mild government oppression. Also GC's sisterposting is only making my life shorter by the time it takes to move my eyes over it, because I don't have a sister.
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Jul 3, 2017 08:08
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pidan posted:I know Stephen Colbert has been using this metric a lot because of the US health Care reform situation. But "how many lives will this save" is not normally how we weigh political issues But I'd still like to see the numbers. At least, I would say, politics should pay some attention to brutal, naked consequentialism. pidan posted:And as a look at the state of Syria will confirm, roving bands of militants planting bombs and beating people up for cutting their beards is actually much worse for society than insufficient healthcare or mild government oppression.
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Jul 3, 2017 08:29
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pidan posted:I know Stephen Colbert has been using this metric a lot because of the US health Care reform situation. But "how many lives will this save" is not normally how we weigh political issues. Politics is about creating an orderly society, which includes a lot of things including some health and safety issues, but it's not primarily about saving lives or increasing life expectancy. Doubling down on security theater, paranoia and authoritarianism is actually how you get to ISIS society. The Syrian civil war started as a rebellion against the oppressive Assad regime. There is definitely a reasonable amount of resources, manpower and civil rights that we can sacrifice to security and one can debate if we have yet reached this reasonable amount, but beyond that, spending any further resources on this is not gonna improve the security feeling of the population. Cause these feelings are just not rational. For example, over the last decades we had an absolutely insane drop in the national murder and violent crime rate, but the public perception of safety has actually decrease due to a lot of factors like media exposure. In the same way, you can militarize every loving city in the country, triple the amount of police on the streets and chip people's ears with GPS trackers, get a decrease in the annual terror attack rate from something like 1.3 to 0.3, but people still won't feel one bit safer, as long as the media keeps fetishizing these attacks and rocking people into hysteria. The way to properly address irrational feelings of danger is not through security theater. A therapist probably would never recommend indulging a patient's delusions.
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Jul 3, 2017 09:32
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I wonder what everyone's voting intentions are right now. E.g., I would assume Raspberry, oliwan, aphid_licker, drone (can you vote?), blowfish, Smirr, botany, Libluini and me will vote Left, Green or SPD - without any enthusiasm, but simply because they hate everyone else much more. Or possibly Die PARTEI. Randler, GaussianCopula and possibly pidan will vote CDU or maybe FDP, maybe with slightly more enthusiasm than the first group. Everyone else, no idea. System Metternich - Graue Panther? Gibt es die in Östereich? (My issue with all left-of-center parties is 1. nuclear energy  , 2. I think we need two different policies for refugees and immigrants; the former, with humanitarian ends, should simply follow international law + exceptions for specific occasions, the latter should aim to actively attract as many smart, productive people from all over the world as possible, and we probably need a new approach to integration although I don't know which, 3. I have a hunch giving unions more power is more effective than aiming to directly create a stronger social net, 4. I don't trust Greens and SPD to be non-interventionist anymore.My issue with all other parties is I don't like anything about them) Cingulate fucked around with this message at 10:24 on Jul 3, 2017 |
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Jul 3, 2017 09:48
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Cingulate posted:drone (can you vote?) Nope. Three more years until I can begin the Einbürgerung, if I decide it's something I want to do. I'm 50/50 on it atm. And I have no idea which party I would vote for if I could... but your guess is probably pretty accurate.
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Jul 3, 2017 09:56
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yeah that sounds about right.
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Jul 3, 2017 10:05
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Cingulate posted:Everyone else, no idea. System Metternich - Graue Panther? Gibt es die in Östereich? I'm 29, not 92! Or does my posting appear that way? poo poo  also I've left Austria one and a half years ago to return to the rolling hills of my childhood  I have honestly no idea yet - I'd honestly like to give Merkel one last term (especially during turbulent times like these where I think that voting for Merkel doesn't only affect Germany but also all of Europe and even beyond in a good and stabilising way. I'm fully aware that this is what she wants me to think, too), but I'd have to vote CSU for that and eugh, I don't know if I can do that. I'd probably vote SPD if they ever get their head out of their rear end. The Greens are laughable, and unless I'll too become a Kreuzberg yuppie I've lost all interest in them. I'd rather ram a pineapple up my rear end than vote for the FDP. Same for the AfD, obviously - make that two pineapples, even. Die Linke? I'm a historian, so I'm contractually obliged to always see the spectre of the SED shining through them, and they've disqualified themselves with their latest party platform pretty thoroughly, too. All other parties are too small to count - I guess I'd like it if the ÖDP was a viable alternative and lost their tinfoil heads on the way. So yeah, I guess it looks good for CDU/CSU on my part? Fuuuuuck.
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Jul 3, 2017 10:18
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I'm honestly surprised any of you would vote green, considering your love of nuclear power and hate of organic agriculture. Also I'm not voting for any of the big 6 this year. I'd vote CDU, but due to location it'd be the CSU and I can't in good conscience vote for them at least while Seehofer is at the helm. I considered SPD but their program this year does not appeal to me. I used to be a Greens voter but I want a much more restrictive immigration policy than they do and the Union is actually ok on environmental issues. I'll go ÖDP if they get in the ballot here
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Jul 3, 2017 10:19
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you didn't ask me but it's gonna be a coin toss for left or green
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Jul 3, 2017 10:22
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Schurik posted:you didn't ask me but it's gonna be a coin toss for left or green
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Jul 3, 2017 10:23
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Decius posted:And in other countries conservative parties taking all the lovely xenophobic ideas from right-wing parties and implementing them with a bit of a nicer veneer. Not just in other countries. System Metternich posted:I have honestly no idea yet - I'd honestly like to give Merkel one last term (especially during turbulent times like these where I think that voting for Merkel doesn't only affect Germany but also all of Europe and even beyond in a good and stabilising way. I'm fully aware that this is what she wants me to think, too), but I'd have to vote CSU for that and eugh, I don't know if I can do that. I'd probably vote SPD if they ever get their head out of their rear end. The Greens are laughable, and unless I'll too become a Kreuzberg yuppie I've lost all interest in them. I'd rather ram a pineapple up my rear end than vote for the FDP. Same for the AfD, obviously - make that two pineapples, even. Die Linke? I'm a historian, so I'm contractually obliged to always see the spectre of the SED shining through them, and they've disqualified themselves with their latest party platform pretty thoroughly, too. All other parties are too small to count - I guess I'd like it if the ÖDP was a viable alternative and lost their tinfoil heads on the way. If you're writing an entire paragraph about your voting decision and don't mention a single political position or direction of any party, the problem is not on their side. Peggotty fucked around with this message at 10:45 on Jul 3, 2017 |
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Jul 3, 2017 10:39
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If Seehofer is the only thing keeping you from voting CSU you've got some serious problems.
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Jul 3, 2017 10:41
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Cingulate posted:I asked everyone, that were just the first few people where I had an intuition what they'd gonna vote. A bit too south to be German: We don't have a Linke in Austria and the Greens are currently demolishing any leftist kernel they had left in favour of - well, nobody really knows. Building high office towers in Vienna? The Socialists are too far to the right nowadays and are flirting with the option to make a coalition with the FPÖ, a loving Nazi party. Mini-Marcon-Metternich (aka the Conservatives Rebranded) is of course unelectable because I hate his punchable face since he drove his first Geilo-Mobil even more than I hate his neoliberal policies. So I'm probably voting for the Commies (a sadly irrelevant 1.03 % party) for the first time.
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Jul 3, 2017 10:44
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I'm offering everyone who lives in Bavaria and wants to vote for the CDU the opportunity to swap their votes with me: I will vote CDU for you and you will vote CSU for me.
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Jul 3, 2017 10:49
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GaussianCopula posted:I'm offering everyone who lives in Bavaria and wants to vote for the CDU the opportunity to swap their votes with me: no deal
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Jul 3, 2017 10:56
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I have several friends and family members who are working badly paid jobs (kfz mechaniker, lagerist, Produktionshelfer, Truck driver, etc.) with constantly decreasing work place satisfaction. They have no perspective for höherqualifizierte work or Bildung and the only thing they can look forward to is the same constantly decreasing or stagnating low wages for the next 30+ years till retirement and then just a bunch of dehumanizing poverty until they die. Meanwhile we have a bunch of yuppies sucking the economy dry and whining on every TV channel hat they want more Wohlstandsumverteilung nach Oben and that's it's not going fast enough. Guess who I'm voting for from my soapbox meltdown.
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Jul 3, 2017 11:16
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Decius posted:So I'm probably voting for the Commies (a sadly irrelevant 1.03 % party) for the first time. Another Austrian here. I'm currently waiting for Pilz to announce something. It will probably be another Stronach-like disaster but still better than whatever the Greens are currently doing. And even though I am from noted Kommunistenhochburg Graz, I just can't bring myself to throw my vote away by voting (Bundes-)KPÖ. If no alternatives pop up, I will probably grudgingly vote SPÖ for the first time, in the hope that red/blue will be marginally better than black/blue v2.
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Jul 3, 2017 11:17
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I like that Cingulate did not mention the card carrying SPD member as voting for the SPD. Simply Simon, his spirit crushed by the Schulztrain and his flesh torn by weasels
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Jul 3, 2017 11:17
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Randler posted:I like that Cingulate did not mention the card carrying SPD member as voting for the SPD. Decius posted:A bit too south to be German:
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Jul 3, 2017 11:19
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:I have several friends and family members who are working badly paid jobs (kfz mechaniker, lagerist, Produktionshelfer, Truck driver, etc.) with constantly decreasing work place satisfaction. They have no perspective for höherqualifizierte work or Bildung and the only thing they can look forward to is the same constantly decreasing or stagnating low wages for the next 30+ years till retirement and then just a bunch of dehumanizing poverty until they die. Meanwhile we have a bunch of yuppies sucking the economy dry and whining on every TV channel hat they want more Wohlstandsumverteilung nach Oben and that's it's not going fast enough. Uhm, CDU because their program (Vollbeschäftigung 2025) is going to create more upward wage pressure than any union ever could, helping your friends and family members more than most other parties would?
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Jul 3, 2017 11:19
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 RIP deutsche Familien, welche, ähnlich dem Planeten Alderaan, alle in einem einzigen Augenblick von einer komplett aufgeladenen Wahlurne verdampft wurden. Wir sind nun alle Vaterlos, Mutterlos, und sobald Claudia Roth den Generator erneut in Betrieb nimmt, wird der nächstes Rot-Grüne Laserstrahl uns allen die Genitalien ausradieren. e: Horden von marodierenden Homosexuellen streifen in exzellent designten Uniformen durch die Städte und heiraten, wen sie wollen. Ihre P175-Pistolen feuern 20 Hochzeiten pro Sekunde. Die entfesselnte, sündige Energie der Orgien überwältigt die Richter in Karlsruhe, durchdringt ihre Roben und radiert das Wort "Familie" aus den Grundgesetz. Lunar Suite fucked around with this message at 11:24 on Jul 3, 2017 |
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Jul 3, 2017 11:20
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