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thatfatkid posted:Repeating unverified claims does not make them anymore credible. How do we know that the video is of the same date as the protest? How do we know that the video is at the location of these protests? How do we know what the men are shooting at? How do we know that they are members of a colectivo? I mean, you can literally go on Twitter right now, search for the word 'colectivo', filter by media and you'll a lot of videos of the colectivos action's today. If you follow Venezuela even superficially, it's pretty clear there's a pattern of the government using its armed civilian arm to intimidate and repress protesters. I personally can vouch about the locations that appear in the videos because the area where the colectivos were loving around in today is where I used to live and I recognize some buildings. I'm not sure what else we can do because I don't think you're going to find videos with timestamps or wide-angle shots that show where the colectivos were firing towards. If it helps, Maduro explicitly told colectivos and civilian militias to 'keep the peace' this week during one of his addresses: https://twitter.com/Gbastidas/status/1112525188653039617 Sure, he doesn't outright say "Hey guys, please shoot at protesters so they stop bugging us" but come on, I think we can all agree that when someone tells civilian armed groups to "keep the peace" they're probably not talking about holding communal anger management meetings.
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Apr 1, 2019 04:37
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thatfatkid posted:Repeating unverified claims does not make them anymore credible. How do we know that the video is of the same date as the protest? How do we know that the video is at the location of these protests? How do we know what the men are shooting at? How do we know that they are members of a colectivo? It's not that we don't try to verify claims, but rather we accept the inherent unreliability of all claims, and accept that we will necessarily have low certainty regarding events. This is why it is useful to change the question. That specific video includes no statements about where or when it was recorded, we cannot confirm it empirically without actually being there. Critical thinking is better applied towards constructing questions that can be confirmed. For example, can we verify there was a protest on Fuerzas Armados today? Do independent sources confirm there was gunfire on the street? If you search for Fuerzas Armados on twitter you can find many different videos posted by various outlets and Venezuelans alleging to show colectivos there today, confronting protesters. We can conclude with some confidence that there really were protests there, and that people did hear gunfire, because there are many independent sources confirming one another's claims. It is harder to confirm exactly who was responsible. However it seems unlikely the opposition was trying to control crowds and clear streets. We also know that many Venezuelans think it believable that it was colectivos who were doing the shooting, if they didn't they wouldn't be sharing these images. Opposition media are reporting their presence and involvement, but that is seemingly based on images and witness testimony, that may not be able to distinguish Maduro partisans from simple criminals or opposition. Venezuelanalysis has nothing on their website's front page or twitter feed regarding these allegations, only something about protesters spreading oil on Francisco Fajardo and causing accidents. All lines of evidence suggest that there were violent clashes between Maduro and opposition aligned groups on Fuerzas Armados street, and there was shooting involved. Opposition media is playing up the violence, while government aligned media is avoiding the subject entirely. Given what we know generally about colectivos, taking public statements some known members have made, popular Venezuelan beliefs about them, statements by Maduro, their involvement in these clashes is entirely consistent with what we know, statements by media, and popular sentiments on social media like twitter. Rather than trying to prove the accuracy of single videos which are often recycled in ties like these, it is better to focus on the big picture and look to confirm details with independent lines of evidence.
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Apr 1, 2019 05:02
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quote:Rather than trying to prove the accuracy of single videos which are often recycled in ties like these Thank you for establishing that facts don't matter to the Pro Guaido camp, only what they feel like the truth is. Do you not see how intellectually dishonest it is to use unverified videos (or even videos of similar things occuring but not of the actual event that it's claimed to show) as proof to back up ones argument? Do you not see how it intentionally muddy's the waters of the events occurring and encourages observers to just trust what is being reported on face value and not think about the claims made at all? E: Thanks for the new avatar and custom title mystery person. Very classy to mock the disabled. 
thatfatkid fucked around with this message at 06:06 on Apr 1, 2019 |
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Apr 1, 2019 05:20
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Bloomberg with some first-hand reporting on the migration of Venezuelan refugees: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-03-29/venezuelans-are-walking-thousands-of-miles-to-flee-maduro-s-regim
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Apr 1, 2019 05:52
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thatfatkid posted:Thank you for establishing that facts don't matter to the Pro Guaido camp, only what they feel like the truth is. Do you not see how intellectually dishonest it is to use unverified videos (or even videos of similar things occuring but not of the actual event that it's claimed to show) as proof to back up ones argument? Do you not see how it intentionally muddy's the waters of the events occurring and encourages observers to just trust what is being reported on face value and not think about the claims made at all? You're really pushing hard into epistemology. How can anyone in Europe or Australia ever really be sure of anything happening in Venezuela? What does it mean to "verify" a video? What are valid sources of knowledge about current events? What does the word proof even mean? In order to begin the process of proving events we have to start looking at the evidence. If we do not post anything here on the assumption that it is all suspect then we cannot even begin to try and understand what is happening. You seem to assume we are necessarily in complete ignorance of what is now occurring, and have no hope of ever confirming anything, or even coming to an approximate idea of what is or isn't. It seems like a rather silly position to me, and it kind of begs the question of why you are even here, since neither this thread nor the one in C-Spam cannot possibly be a valid source of knowledge regarding anything in Venezuela by your criteria. Unfortunately if you are only interested in what we can prove with statistically measured confidence you will have to wait six-eight months for the peer review process to complete. I'm afraid it will leave you rather in the dark as to current events but then I suppose we must make sacrifices in the name of Truth.
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Apr 1, 2019 06:15
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Squalid posted:You're really pushing hard into epistemology. How can anyone in Europe or Australia ever really be sure of anything happening in Venezuela? What does it mean to "verify" a video? What are valid sources of knowledge about current events? What does the word proof even mean? It's a bit rich that you of all people are smug about actually considering and thinking about events critically. It's this type of blatant disregard for critical thought and analysis that leads to supporting imperialistic intervention/coups that only ever devastate the target state (Venezuela in this instance). But you'd know this from your experience stanning for the intervention in Libya, or do you still consider that an intervention success story?
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Apr 1, 2019 06:50
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Well, your critical thought and analysis kinda makes it sound like you are using the same logic holocaust deniers use. Seriously your reasoning to dispute a shooting is sketchy as hell.
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Apr 1, 2019 07:45
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Even if collectivos did not exist (they do), the violence they inflict is real and the government is absolutely 100% complicit in that violence by refusing to acknowledge it at best and actively encouraging it at worst; doubly so when it is the government itself that has provided the material conditions for their existence (which again, they very much exist) Hope this helps clarify things for people that expect us to post a super secret government odd saying “I am Maduro and as I kill this child in cold blood I approve of the distribution of weaponry to collectivos as described below, muahahahaha” or anything to that effect, so that they can then deny the authorship, so that we can post video of it, so they can say it’s deep faked, because ideology transcends its own contents Furia fucked around with this message at 08:34 on Apr 1, 2019 |
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Apr 1, 2019 08:30
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Pharohman777 posted:Well, your critical thought and analysis kinda makes it sound like you are using the same logic holocaust deniers use. Oh wow, so not only are journalists that don't buy into the pro-coup narrative neo-nazis, but actually thinking critically and assessing conditions is akin to holocaust denial. Your reading comprehension skills are severely lacking if you've misinterpreted the point i was making this badly.
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Apr 1, 2019 11:27
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Furia posted:Even if collectivos did not exist (they do), the violence they inflict is real and the government is absolutely 100% complicit in that violence by refusing to acknowledge it at best and actively encouraging it at worst; doubly so when it is the government itself that has provided the material conditions for their existence (which again, they very much exist) Don't sanction a country in the hopes of destabilizing it and you won't have to worry about collectivos.
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Apr 1, 2019 11:28
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Judakel posted:Don't sanction a country in the hopes of destabilizing it and you won't have to worry about collectivos. So let’s ignore for a moment that you seem to believe that collectivos only began existing 2 months ago (or five years ago, depending on how generous I am in my interpretation), are you honestly saying that murdering innocent civilians is justified here?
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Apr 1, 2019 11:51
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Furia posted:So let’s ignore for a moment that you seem to believe that collectivos only began existing 2 months ago (or five years ago, depending on how generous I am in my interpretation), are you honestly saying that murdering innocent civilians is justified here? I am saying you support efforts which only kick a hornet's nest and you should stop.
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Apr 1, 2019 11:55
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Judakel posted:I am saying you support efforts which only kick a hornet's nest and you should stop. Actually you said: Judakel posted:Don't sanction a country in the hopes of destabilizing it and you won't have to worry about collectivos. In response to: Furia posted:Even if collectivos did not exist (they do), the violence they inflict is real and the government is absolutely 100% complicit in that violence by refusing to acknowledge it at best and actively encouraging it at worst; doubly so when it is the government itself that has provided the material conditions for their existence (which again, they very much exist) Ignoring that colectivos had existed since significantly before 2019 or 2014 and impliying that government sanctioned murder of citizens is, in fact, good. Noice backpedalling though PS: how is “the government should not murder citizens” in any way shape or form “kicking a hornet’s nest” even? Furia fucked around with this message at 12:03 on Apr 1, 2019 |
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Apr 1, 2019 11:58
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Furia posted:Actually you said: Is there something fundamentally wrong with you that leads you to make posts like these? No one is backpedalling because no one gives a poo poo about your stupid take on the situation. It is very simple: you support putting pressure on venezuela, which directly leads to greater unrest and violence. Get that through your head.
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Apr 1, 2019 12:16
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Judakel posted:Is there something fundamentally wrong with you that leads you to make posts like these? No one is backpedalling because no one gives a poo poo about your stupid take on the situation. It is very simple: you support putting pressure on venezuela, which directly leads to greater unrest and violence. Get that through your head. It is clear you have never been hungry. How about instead of abscribing positions to me which I do not support in an effort to win points in an online argument, you engage with the reality that colectivos have existed before the sanctions were impmemented, and that the government benefits from their continued existance and operations?’
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Apr 1, 2019 12:21
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Judakel posted:Don't sanction a country in the hopes of destabilizing it and you won't have to worry about collectivos. The colectivos were set up *and armed* by Chavez over a decade ago. They have been attacking government opponents, including beating, teargassing and shooting, well before sanctions were in place. Even in the *absence* of sanctions, the colectivos have been used as a means of suppressing the opposition. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about regarding this topic, as usual. Rust Martialis fucked around with this message at 12:40 on Apr 1, 2019 |
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Apr 1, 2019 12:38
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But who has ever PERSONALLY seen jet fuel melt steel beams? Only people who support Nazi coups, that's for sure. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 1, 2019 13:46
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GreyjoyBastard posted:What if he's I think this is part of the reason there's so much confusion over colectivos - it completely contradicts the previous line we've given that a Venezuelan coup would be a clean affair that could never turn out like Iraq or Syria. Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 14:14 on Apr 1, 2019 |
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Apr 1, 2019 13:52
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Rust Martialis posted:The colectivos were set up *and armed* by Chavez over a decade ago. They have been attacking government opponents, including beating, teargassing and shooting, well before sanctions were in place. Some of them even predate Chavez. La Piedrita was set up in the mid-80s by Valentín Santana (the origin story is that he founded it with some family and friends to fight drug dealers in the neighborhood) and has pretty much ruled 23 de Enaro since. The Tupamaros claim, at least, although who knows if its true, by former members of the Uruguay group who fled when the government there cracked down on them. I mean, the statement that collectivos exist and have power and ties the government shouldnt be controversial. Heiker Vasquez, the leader of Tres Raices, who was killed during Operation Gideon, was a police officer with the Special Action Force. Collectivo action forced Miguel Rodriguez Torres to step down.
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Apr 1, 2019 14:01
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It's going to be interesting going forward to see if there's a re-distribution of repressive activities from the traditional forces (the National Guard and the National Bolivarian Police) to the coletivos armados and the FAES (the Fuerzas de Acciones Especiales, a SWAT-like unit of the National Bolivarian Police). The FAES was created in mid-2017 so we didn't get to see them in action during much during that year's protests. And, while colectivos have been active for years, the bulk of the repression has traditionally been carried out by the NG and the NBP. It's worth remembering that one of the officers killed in the raid on the Oscar Perez safehouse on January 15 of last year was a FAES officer named Andriun Ugarte. It turns out that Andriun also went by Heiker Vasquez, and that he was the leader of the "Tres Raices" colectivo in the 23 de enero neighbourhood of Caracas. His funeral was attended by both uniformed FAES members as well as colectivo armado members. EDIT: Beaten on the Heiker Vasquez point--we're on the same wavelength!
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Apr 1, 2019 14:10
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The existence of the colectivos is so uncontroversial, as are so many other subjects discussed at length here for literally *years*, to have someone pop into the thread and claim that subject X or Y is unproven is still strange to me. Lurking here for several months before I felt even reasonably informed about the situation in Venezuela just felt appropriate. I came in thinking that Chavez was a good guy, anti-imperialist, etc. back several years ago (while he was alive), and gradually the serial fuckups and outright evil acts by the PSUV showed me that whatever good Chavez had done, his heirs had basically destroyed it. I can't remember what year I first started reading the thread... Really the restraint shown by many posters in this thread when confronted with ignorance and rudeness is truly commendable. I am trying to follow in your steps... badly.
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Apr 1, 2019 14:24
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That being said, it's a mistake to see the collectivos just as Maduro's dogs to bark on command. The government needs the collectivos as muscle and for policing, and pays off the collectivos, originally with cash, but now more by letting them control food distribution and largely looking the other way when they commit crimes, but the collectivos have a lot of independence and dont like the government in their business, and put pressure themselves on the government to be more radical. Chuck Boone, the collectivos were involved pretty strongly in the Operations to Liberate the People, and if the stories are to be believed, they served largely as summary executioners there.
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Apr 1, 2019 14:34
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Remind me, where was that video of Maduro running with a bunch of incredibly fat soldiers?
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Apr 1, 2019 14:40
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Epicurius posted:That being said, it's a mistake to see the collectivos just as Maduro's dogs to bark on command. The government needs the collectivos as muscle and for policing, and pays off the collectivos, originally with cash, but now more by letting them control food distribution and largely looking the other way when they commit crimes, but the collectivos have a lot of independence and dont like the government in their business, and put pressure themselves on the government to be more radical. I think this is what's tripping some people up. This is why you don't see colectivo members on camera saying things like, "My name is X, I'm part of the colectivo Y, and I love Maduro and he called me this morning and told me to shoot at protesters, which I am doing now". That's not how this works. The colectivos are an eclectic group of people and groups. Some of them might be acting out of ideological conviction and loyalty to the governments, and others might be acting purely out of self-interests that happen to align with those of the state. Epicurius posted:Chuck Boone, the collectivos were involved pretty strongly in the Operations to Liberate the People, and if the stories are to be believed, they served largely as summary executioners there. Yeah--that's the thing though, the OLP was officially run by the FAES. This is a really great piece on the FAES, the OLP, and its connections to the colectivos.
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Apr 1, 2019 14:55
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Chuck, this seems similar to the proliferation of locally-based militias in Syria, which were supported by the government but not wholly answerable to it. It seems a symptom of a breakdown in government authority.
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Apr 1, 2019 15:01
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Well, yeah. The military isn't really reliable for this kind of thing, since the lower ranks arn't being fed any better than the common man on the street.
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Apr 1, 2019 15:22
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In true Orwellian doublespeak, Biggie Size Brother Maduro has taken to calling the colectivos (whom are armed and mostly masked) "cuadrillas de la paz" -- peace gangs! This naturally gets fawning coverage in Russian media: https://actualidad.rt.com/actualidad/310174-cuadrillas-venezolanas-paz-realizan-ejercicios
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Apr 1, 2019 16:09
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thatfatkid posted:It's a bit rich that you of all people are smug about actually considering and thinking about events critically. It's this type of blatant disregard for critical thought and analysis that leads to supporting imperialistic intervention/coups that only ever devastate the target state (Venezuela in this instance). But you'd know this from your experience stanning for the intervention in Libya, or do you still consider that an intervention success story? Changing the subject are we? I thought we were talking about empiricism? Why don't we use a little critical thinking to figure out what you are really trying to argue. You started by asking people to "verify" and provide proof that a specific image was what it was presented to be. However you quickly pivoted away from principled empirical skepticism to ask this: thatfatkid posted:I'm curious, why is it that the supposed past actions of Maduro's supporters can be used as irrefutable proof to back-up unverified claims about them/their actions - while the same reasoning cannot be used to assess the US and Elliott Abrams intent/actions re: their involvement in the attempted coup by Guaido? thatfatkid posted:Is the pro Guaido camp beyond reproach so much that they need not provide proof of claims made? Your emphasis shifts away from simply looking for "proof" of something, to an issue of fairness. I mean on its face the answer to this question is obvious: we should not make unverifiable claims at all, either about Maduro or Abrams. However I'm not sure that's what you are really trying to convey here. Your issue isn't really about empiricism, it is with the thread's unfairness towards Maduro. Why do we treat one side differently than the other? Do you think I would be out of line to ask you to prove that that one side of this argument really does have a lower standard of truth? I don't recall you posting any evidence supporting that claim. Sounds awfully hypocritical of you right now. thatfatkid posted:Why? There is no point in needlessly speculating just to dispute unverified claims and doing anothers work, typically the one making the claim would provide evidence supporting such. This post is interesting because it demonstrates your priorities. You don't actually have any interest in empiricism. When pushed to explain what you think is an appropriate level of verification you defer and immediately change the subject. This is because you are not really interested in verification at all, your previous arguments were a smoke screen. thatfatkid posted:Thank you for establishing that facts don't matter to the Pro Guaido camp, only what they feel like the truth is. Do you not see how intellectually dishonest it is to use unverified videos (or even videos of similar things occuring but not of the actual event that it's claimed to show) as proof to back up ones argument? Do you not see how it intentionally muddy's the waters of the events occurring and encourages observers to just trust what is being reported on face value and not think about the claims made at all? thatfatkid posted:It's a bit rich that you of all people are smug about actually considering and thinking about events critically. It's this type of blatant disregard for critical thought and analysis that leads to supporting imperialistic intervention/coups that only ever devastate the target state (Venezuela in this instance). But you'd know this from your experience stanning for the intervention in Libya, or do you still consider that an intervention success story? Ah now you really reveal yourself. I felt I explained my reasoning succinctly and directly I have nothing in my methods to conceal. I don't think you really have any interest in empiricism or bayesian inference of hypothesis testing. I'm not sure you are even smart enough to realize it, but your argument is actually about something completely different. The problem is not insufficient facts to discover "truth," whatever that means, it is just that the arguments are "Pro Guaido." Instead of talking about Venezuela or providing evidence supporting your own view, the problem is now my "stanning for the intevention in Libya." Instead of explaining the flaws in my reasoning, you just assert, without empirical evidence, that I am being dishonest, that I am "intentionally muddy's the waters." You aren't interested in providing proof of your own claims, or challenging my basis for evaluating current events. You don't want to seriously investigate events in Venezuela. You want to make this personal. This isn't about Venezuela, it is about something I said regarding Libya? Instead of empiricism, you are making arguments about narratives. The problem is not using faulty evidence or reasoning, its that you make them about the wrong things. There's nothing wrong with Maduro making insane claims about electro-magnetic attacks on Venezuelan infrastructure, the problem is some people are unfair when we ask for evidence but also believe that videos posted by opposition media are what they say the are. Ultimately your ideas are very tedious and uninteresting. If you just wanted to rant about thread narratives you could just posted that in the beginning. You aren't really interested in talking about the nature of truth or what constitutes evidence, you're here for the petty personal bickering, and its why you seem desperate to talk about anything other than your empty ideas.
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Apr 1, 2019 16:52
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Furia posted:It is clear you have never been hungry. You're actively supporting mak8ng their hunger worse.
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Apr 1, 2019 19:37
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Rust Martialis posted:The colectivos were set up *and armed* by Chavez over a decade ago. They have been attacking government opponents, including beating, teargassing and shooting, well before sanctions were in place. Attempts to disrupt this government have been going on for that long. Goddamn you're unequipped to discuss this. There was another coup attempt in that timeframe. You clearly didn't understand the central critique, as usual. How's the coup going? Judakel fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Apr 1, 2019 |
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Apr 1, 2019 19:39
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https://twitter.com/nytopinion/status/1112742108958478339 Here's a cute little video about why the U.S. should institute regime change. Published by the NYT and presented by the daughter of Guaido's named representative to the IADB. EDIT: "hands off can actually mean 'blood on your hands'" The Kingfish fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Apr 1, 2019 |
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Apr 1, 2019 19:57
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Judakel posted:You're actively supporting mak8ng their hunger worse. I don’t think “the government should not kill civilians” constitutes “making the hunger worse” Say colectivos are bad. Can you bring yourself to do that?
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Apr 1, 2019 20:00
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How do we know the alleged collectivo members in those videos weren't firing on violent guarimberos like the ones who burned a black presumed chavista alive? What if there was a small group of opposition people who armed themselves and actually fired upon the collectivos for some revenge? Video of them defending themselves could then be misconstrued as them firing on regular protestors, but we don't actually see who is being fired at. It sounds like the protests are still going, so they haven't dispersed them, and 2 wounded doesn't sound like a lot of casualties with that much audible gunfire and so many people present. What if people were looting? I think these are alternative explanations to the "collectivos are targeting oppositions protestors with violence for their beliefs". I also think that it might be possible for all the scenarios to be occurring at the same time (including the one put forward by the pro Guaido posters). Imagine freeing the slaves in the US, then providing for them lectures on the emancipatory ideology which helped free them, organizing them for collective action and then giving them guns as a hedge against re-enslavement by other actors, arming the one group of people who most need to be able to defend themselves from a likely future hostile government. That makes you a tyrant in thistle thread
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Apr 1, 2019 20:01
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Zidrooner posted:How do we know the alleged collectivo members in those videos weren't firing on violent guarimberos like the ones who burned a black presumed chavista alive? Because if this was the case Telesur would be shouting it from the rooftops and someone in this thread would have said something by now. The fact this isn't happening suggests that the video is exactly what it's claimed to be: collectivos shooting at peaceful protestors.
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Apr 1, 2019 20:04
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We don't know those guys didn't have a good reason for spraying a residential neighbirhood with bullets! Christ.
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Apr 1, 2019 20:04
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Judakel posted:(Blatantly irrelevant garbage snipped.) Nope, sorry, not chasing those goalposts. Let's revisit your prior statement. You said: Judakel posted:Don't sanction a country in the hopes of destabilizing it and you won't have to worry about collectivos. This was clearly untrue when you said it, and now you are trying to avoid admitting being caught in a simple error. Was it simple ignorance or a deliberate untruth on your part, or just carelessness? At this point, even you have admitted that the facts are quite clear - that violence by colectivos happened without sanctions (you mentioned the prior coup, years before sanctions). An *honest* person would simply admit a mis-statement or error and move on, as has happened repeatedly on this thread when new facts and evidence emerge, by many posters. Continued failure to do so would demonstrate a fundamental dishonesty in your character. Rust Martialis fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Apr 1, 2019 |
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Apr 1, 2019 20:19
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Squalid posted:Changing the subject are we? I thought we were talking about empiricism? Why don't we use a little critical thinking to figure out what you are really trying to argue. You started by asking people to "verify" and provide proof that a specific image was what it was presented to be. However you quickly pivoted away from principled empirical skepticism to ask this: Good work, youve demonstrated some ability of critical thinking (albeit in an incredibly smug and creepy way). It's a shame you seem only to be willing to apply it to ideas critical of the pro coup narrative.
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Apr 1, 2019 20:21
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Rent-A-Cop posted:We don't know those guys didn't have a good reason for spraying a residential neighbirhood with bullets!
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Apr 1, 2019 20:23
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thatfatkid posted:Good work, youve demonstrated some ability of critical thinking (albeit in an incredibly smug and creepy way). It's a shame you seem only to be willing to apply it to ideas critical of the pro coup narrative. Which coup? The one by Chavez (that failed), the one *against* Chavez (that failed), or the one by Maduro (that has succeeded) opposed by the legitimate National Assembly? Go ahead and demonstrate your own "critical thinking" and enlighten us.
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Apr 1, 2019 20:25
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Zidrooner posted:violent guarimberos like the ones who burned a black presumed chavista alive you can't prove the black guy was not in fact a thief as the mob accused him of  seriously, trying to defend random casual shooting at a protest was gross when it was one person making one driveby shitpost
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Apr 1, 2019 20:28
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