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Rhyno posted:There has to be one who's bad. The new Falcon and the new Giant Man are both pretty forgettable-- and I believe both Nick Spencer creations. I do think it's a little samey that a bunch of new characters introduced at around the same time were characterized by being teen/preteen super-geniuses, but that's fine. I don't love that as a character "superpower" in general (I'm fine if Reed Richards and Valeria never, ever come back) but I've made my peace with it and I'd rather have new characters presented as smart and capable women than, like, blundering clods, and there's rarely a middle ground in comics for somebody to be like "hey, you're pretty sharp, you should, I don't know, have a podcast." That being said-- granting that Moon Girl is absolutely intended for younger kids-- I think Amy Reeder plays Luna's super-intelligence thoughtfully, showing how she fits within Marvel's weird ecosystem of mad scientists and hyper-inventors and how her prickly personality flaws played against the desire of other people around her to help her find a community of peers. In the context of the sort of comic she's in and the intended audience, I think her being the smartest person in the world but rolling out with Inspector Gadget devices is fine and charming. Ditto I think BMB sells Riri as a compelling character, for whom being preternaturally good at the stuff Tony Stark was preternaturally good at is believable and workable as a hook without being her entire character. I've already kind of voiced my apathy about the new Wasp on here. I don't think Toni Ho really fits into this archetype because she's older, but full disclosure I just love that character.
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Dec 17, 2017 18:16
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There is a new Giant Man? Why not bring back Goliath and make him Giant Man?  Edit: just looked him up. Lol that goatee is really bad.
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Dec 17, 2017 18:50
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Rhyno posted:There has to be one who's bad. I actually didn't even know there was a new Falcon, which I guess is a little telling.
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Dec 17, 2017 18:55
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Sam's back as Falcon now so it's doubtful that the new one will be used again anytime soon
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Dec 17, 2017 19:26
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I always thought that FF was canceled and quietly shoved in a closet was more that no one cared about them, so there was no point in keeping the book alive, even if they are Marvels first family and had good writers and artists working on them, the readers just didn't care about them as a group.
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Dec 17, 2017 19:46
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I would be interested in seeing the sales figures of the last couple runs of ff compared to what marvel books are generally selling nowadays
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Dec 17, 2017 19:49
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That's the thing, most of the "token" "diversity" "legacy" characters have some solid reason for existing. Characters like Amadeus Cho, Jane Foster, Laura/X-23, Sam Wilson, etc. were pre-existing characters in the mythos of the characters they "replaced" for decades. Whole-cloth 'legacy' characters like Kamala Khan/Miles Morales/Riri Williams/Moon Girl at least feel like they were created by people with an investment in telling stories about people with the new characters' life experiences (Bendis is an old white guy, but he's an old white guy raising two black daughters and has repeatedly expressed a sincere interest in giving them superheroes that they can see themselves in, even if you can certainly critique his execution of these intentions). Meanwhile when Nick Spencer created a new Falcon and a new Giant-Man, they seemed like afterthoughts as supporting characters. "What if there's a new Giant-Man and uh... let's see... he's Muslim? No wait, too obvious. He's Indian... and people think he's Muslim, but he's Hindi. Oh! And he's gay!" "Okay and then what?" "I dunno, I guess he gets big and poo poo and punches people for Ant-Man. He can do science too." "What if there's a new Falcon and uh... he's a Dreamer! And he gets his power from weird Border Patrol science experiments! And he's.... let me just pick a trait out of a hat... a vampire? Sure! Why not?" "Okay and then what?" "He flies around and does Falcon poo poo, what else am I supposed to do here? Isn't creating gay indian and undocument immigrant vampire heroes ENOUGH for you people?" site posted:I would be interested in seeing the sales figures of the last couple runs of ff compared to what marvel books are generally selling nowadays The last time Marvel launched a Fantastic Four book was in 2014, and the first issue was the 7th biggest book of the month with about 66,000 orders. It dropped to #44 with 38,000 order for the second issue. The sixth issue was #64 with about 33,000 orders. The twelfth issue was #107 with 26,000 orders. Fraction's run did about as well (his FF book did worse) Hickman's F4/FF run did okay, and sold a lot of copies around the pivot of "Death of Human Torch" into relaunching the FF book. It had settled into the lower-middle tier of Marvel books by the time Hickman's run ended. Before that was... Millar and Hitch, I guess? Which did way way less than anyone expected, to the point that they basically foisted the last couple issues off on assistants because it made no financial sense to pay the money Millar/Hitch get for such a middling book. I get the argument that "well technically the Millar/Hitch book still sold really well, the first issue had 92,000 orders and the last still had 44,000 orders and that's really good compared to today!" but 44,000 copies ordered in that month meant it was getting outsold by regular old issues of Spider-Man, Dark Avengers, Hulk, Captain America, New Avengers, Uncanny X-Men, Wolverine, Dark Wolverine, Dark X-Men, Mighty Avengers, X-Force, X-Men Legacy, Deadpool, Deadpool Merc with a Mouth, Iron Man, and Wolverine Origins. And that was putting two of the biggest possible names on the book and hyping up a one year run. Given how the FF book was being outsold by over a dozen books, and that about half of those books were X-Men books, if you want to spite Fox without completely spiting yourself, not having a Fantastic Four book on the market is no great loss. Edge & Christian fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Dec 17, 2017 |
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Dec 17, 2017 19:59
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The only other one whose concept stands out as bad is Silk, then she had a good series and she’s good now. And even then it was mostly because “what if the spider bit someone else?” sounds like amateur fanfic territory. Then it got into a bit more slash fiction.
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Dec 17, 2017 20:31
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Aphrodite posted:The only other one whose concept stands out as bad is Silk, then she had a good series and she’s good now. What if the spider bit someone else and that person...was UNCLE BEN!?
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Dec 17, 2017 21:21
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Covok posted:What if the spider bit someone else and that person...was UNCLE BEN!? There are way cooler people for that concept. Aunt May, Flash, Victor Von Doom, Harry Osbourne...
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Dec 17, 2017 21:36
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Harry Osbourne, Norman Ousbourne, Hairy Osburne, Nourmane Ouesbourne, Liz Allyne-Ossburn, Ozzie Osborn, etc.
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Dec 17, 2017 21:38
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Covok posted:What if the spider bit someone else and that person...was UNCLE BEN!? Hello. http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Benjamin_Parker_(Earth-3145)
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Dec 17, 2017 21:40
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Mr Hootington posted:Hello. Oh. loving. Of. Course.
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Dec 17, 2017 21:50
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What if the spider bit me?
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Dec 17, 2017 22:14
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Covok posted:Oh. loving. Of. Course. I straight-up thought you were mocking that character to begin with. 
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Dec 17, 2017 22:15
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Alien Rope Burn posted:I straight-up thought you were mocking that character to begin with. No, I really didn't even know. I was intentionally being stupid.
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Dec 17, 2017 22:19
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Does Daken count as a legacy character? Because he's the worst.
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Dec 17, 2017 22:19
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Daken is a guy and he's not GAY so he gets a pass
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Dec 17, 2017 22:22
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Daken I'd say does, but... he was pretty good in his own series. And I say that with no love for the character when he first appeared, certainly. I liked how his solo series humanized him somewhat by giving this internal view where externally he looks like this smug master planner, but who actually struggles to keep all of his plates spinning, and has to cover up when he fails. Granted, he was still a tremendous rear end in a top hat, but he was at least an interesting rear end in a top hat.
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Dec 17, 2017 22:35
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Daken would be way more tolerable without explicitly having date rape drug powers.
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Dec 17, 2017 22:43
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site posted:Daken is a guy and he's not GAY so he gets a pass Uh, come again? Also I'm enjoying his appearance in ANW but can't remember anything else I've really liked him in. I know I read the crossover mini with him and X-23 but honestly don't remember it at all.
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Dec 17, 2017 22:49
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I like the way Daken is being used in ANW and Iceman, of a things right now. I think he can be a really interesting character but he got caught in a really stupid feedback loop of daddy issues in his book way back when and it really diluted him.
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Dec 17, 2017 22:54
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Diet Poison posted:Uh, come again? site is making a joke about how people yell about legacy characters because they're just bigots, which is true. Except Daken is bi, which to those types means he's just gay.
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Dec 17, 2017 23:06
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Mr. Maltose posted:site is making a joke about how people yell about legacy characters because they're just bigots, which is true. Except Daken is bi, which to those types means he's just gay. Sometimes, as a bi man, I forget Bi erasure is a thing. I like it when I forget.
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Dec 17, 2017 23:20
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I only know Daken from pre Dark Avengers and it's weird as hell hearing they turned him around when he was pretty much I'm bi because I can scheme with twice as much seduction, see also Loki
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Dec 17, 2017 23:58
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Daken was awesome in The List: The Punisher, but all he really had to do was be a evil Wolverine.
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Dec 17, 2017 23:58
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Daken is pretty good in ANW. Its pretty much the only time I've really enjoyed him, I guess being around Gabby he's not able to be the piece of poo poo he normally is?
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Dec 18, 2017 00:04
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Whoa whoa was someone dissing Atari Force in this thread? Because the warning light on my desk went off and this will not stand.
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Dec 18, 2017 00:43
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Scaramouche posted:Whoa whoa was someone dissing Atari Force in this thread? Because the warning light on my desk went off and this will not stand. Atari Force was drawn by my man Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez and I will brook no ill words against it.
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Dec 18, 2017 01:12
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Mr. Maltose posted:site is making a joke about how people yell about legacy characters because they're just bigots, which is true. Except Daken is bi, which to those types means he's just gay. ohhh, emphasis on the word gay. OK. I was just gonna say Daken totally bangs dudes.
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Dec 18, 2017 01:16
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Daken's a serial rapist as well as a killer of innocents so I really don't see why anyone thought he should do anything but stay dead in a puddle.
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Dec 18, 2017 01:38
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What if we just replaced every appearance and reference to Daken in Marvel Comics with the band Dokken
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Dec 18, 2017 01:44
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Lurdiak posted:Daken's a serial rapist as well as a killer of innocents so I really don't see why anyone thought he should do anything but stay dead in a puddle. I have found that no matter what terrible things a character does, there will be a community of people who will always defend that character as having been in the right all along.
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Dec 18, 2017 01:44
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Roth posted:I have found that no matter what terrible things a character does, there will be a community of people who will always defend that character as having been in the right all along. Yes, they're called Fox and Friends.
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Dec 18, 2017 01:46
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Lurdiak posted:Daken's a serial rapist as well as a killer of innocents so I really don't see why anyone thought he should do anything but stay dead in a puddle. I think making peace with that kind of retroactive rehabilation is just part of a character getting a foothold in some cases. I've been rereading Mark Gruenwald's Captain America and you can see US Agent and Diamondback's characters softening and getting more complex as Gruenwald (and, I suppose, the readers and his editors) get more fond of them, such that some of the truly heinous stuff both of them get up to in early appearances might as well have never happened. In my opinion--- to take Daken as the example to-hand-- the best solution is to not make any character, not even unambiguous villains, be serial rapists. Especially as one of very few canonically bi Marvel characters, it is 100% awful that he embodied so many noxious stereotypes of the omnivorous and predatory bisexual. As good as I think some of the work with Daken in All-New Wolverine has been, it's like, yeah, very difficult to sweep that particular kind of thing under the carpet. It's mitigated, I think, by many of Daken's early appearances being by a hack, so I'd absolutely prefer to pretend a lot of it never happened.
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Dec 18, 2017 01:56
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Lurdiak posted:Daken's a serial rapist as well as a killer of innocents so I really don't see why anyone thought he should do anything but stay dead in a puddle. WHAT!?
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Dec 18, 2017 01:59
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Covok posted:WHAT!? His pheromone powers open up the same ethically queasy avenues as Starfox. However, unlike Starfox, who was never really painted as a creep or as in any way unconcerned about consent until pretty late in his character history (was that introduced in Dan Slott's She-Hulk?), Daken has from the start been shown as using his power to twist around peoples' desires as a way to satisfy himself and further his own goals. That's the gross thing about that kind of superpower, as well as related stuff like mind control (see the Purple Man)-- if you're manipulating people to make them do things they wouldn't normally do, and especially if that extends into sex, that's a very clear perversion of consent that I'd definitely consider violation.
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Dec 18, 2017 02:05
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Covok posted:WHAT!? His phermone power is effectively mind-control rape.
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Dec 18, 2017 02:06
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Daniel Way isn't hated as much as he should be
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Dec 18, 2017 02:06
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I've read a bunch of Daken's older series around the Dark Avengers days and I didn't even know he had pheromone powers.
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Dec 18, 2017 02:13
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