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A Buttery Pastry posted:The scars of imperialism do not simply heal by themselves, they reverberate through time and lock people in the present into destines decided before they were born. Former imperial powers must make amends and do what they can to right past wrongs, not defend them with the argument that those crimes are in the past. i have bad news for you about Spain and what it was up to in this time period. Gibraltar was not, at any point, some defenceless far off land full of primitive natives that was conquered by freebooting English pirates. And at some points, yes, the past is in fact in the past. Are you proposing kicking all the Normans out and reestablishing the Heptarchy? And then kicking all of them out and giving all of England back to the Welsh? And what of the Beaker People, where are their rights? Also yeah I'm gonna need some cites on the whole 'Gibraltan genocide'. Edit: 5 - they were Famous and did detectiving including probably of evil foreign Spanish people feedmegin fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Feb 1, 2020 |
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Feb 1, 2020 18:51
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Irrelevant. Holding the self-determination of peoples as sacrosanct protects the beneficiaries of genocide just the same. Perhaps we could do that when there isn't a reason not to? Like contrariwise the idea of going into some weird calipers-based ethnography about what fleg should have what landmass seems a bit suspect.
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Feb 1, 2020 18:57
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feedmegin posted:Are you proposing kicking all the Normans out and reestablishing the Heptarchy? And then kicking all of them out and giving all of England back to the Welsh? gently caress the beaker people though.
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Feb 1, 2020 18:59
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Guavanaut posted:Who decides what's an imperialist relic? feedmegin posted:i have bad news for you about Spain and what it was up to in this time period. Gibraltar was not, at any point, some defenceless far off land full of primitive natives that was conquered by freebooting English pirates. And at some points, yes, the past is in fact in the past. Are you proposing kicking all the Normans out and reestablishing the Heptarchy? And then kicking all of them out and giving all of England back to the Welsh? And what of the Beaker People, where are their rights? feedmegin posted:Also yeah I'm gonna need some cites on the whole 'Gibraltan genocide'.
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Feb 1, 2020 19:02
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feedmegin posted:giving all of England back to the Welsh? That sounds fine to me. Or if you don't want to return to your modern day Angle and Saxon homelands I'd be perfectly happy to take your place over there
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Feb 1, 2020 19:08
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feedmegin posted:i have bad news for you about Spain and what it was up to in this time period. Gibraltar was not, at any point, some defenceless far off land full of primitive natives that was conquered by freebooting English pirates. And at some points, yes, the past is in fact in the past. Are you proposing kicking all the Normans out and reestablishing the Heptarchy? And then kicking all of them out and giving all of England back to the Welsh? And what of the Beaker People, where are their rights? we should nuke the UK and give it back to its rightful owners: nobody
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Feb 1, 2020 19:09
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Yes? You can both be a perpetrator and a victim of imperialism, that's probably the norm for most states older than a century. this is really loving stupid lol
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Feb 1, 2020 19:09
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The current inhabitants of England are descendants of invaders, true, but they're also descendants of the natives whose rights you're sarcastically invoking. I mean if you put people in a place for long enough that tends to happen? What percentile of native blood does it take to qualify for right to live in a place?
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Feb 1, 2020 19:09
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Yes? You can both be a perpetrator and a victim of imperialism, that's probably the norm for most states older than a century. There can't be any discussion about the status of Gibraltar until Ceuta and Melilla are returned. Hell, offer Morocco Jabal Tariq too.
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Feb 1, 2020 19:11
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the UK should be mine tbh we deserve one another Rakosi fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Feb 1, 2020 |
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Feb 1, 2020 19:11
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I feel that all this Gibraltarchat has been shamefully failing to consider the views of the real native population.
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Feb 1, 2020 19:14
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feedmegin posted:Also yeah I'm gonna need some cites on the whole 'Gibraltan genocide'. So if anyone deserves Gibraltar back, it's the Palestinians. 
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Feb 1, 2020 19:18
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technically since we all originally came from some part of central africa i think central africa should get everything, you imperialistic scum
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Feb 1, 2020 19:18
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Darth Walrus posted:I feel that all this Gibraltarchat has been shamefully failing to consider the views of the real native population. I'm here for the boats waiting to dock in Algeciras on the other side of the bay
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Feb 1, 2020 19:20
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Pistol_Pete posted:Eh, if we had a little Spanish enclave on the English coast filled with tax evaders and organised crime, I can't imagine we'd be too happy with that either. gonna assume you've never been to the Channel Islands
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Feb 1, 2020 19:22
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feedmegin posted:And then kicking all of them out and giving all of England back to the Welsh? Well it's a start.
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Feb 1, 2020 19:22
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The head of the Gibraltan government is Fabian Picardo. Good old fashioned Anglo-Saxon name there. e: \/\/ fair. I think my real point is that the test for Pastry's Blood and Soil argument only works when you are looking at a clearly ethnically/culturally transplanted population and your window to 'correct' historical injustices sits there. Once you look at Gibraltar and you have a population that's been a melting pot where the British element is only a small slice alongside Spanish, Portuguese, Italian and others then you struggle to plausibly draw a line between them and the crimes of people who weren't actually their ancestors. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Feb 1, 2020 |
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Feb 1, 2020 19:22
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That's getting a bit close to "how can someone called Sadiq Khan be the mayor of London" and "why isn't he called Murphy like the rest of them".
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Feb 1, 2020 19:24
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Not surprising to see the UK left resist attempts to reckon with the UK's imperialist past. At its core, it is no more able to confront the myths of Britain's imperial past than the Tories, even if it doesn't go so far as to celebrate it, preferring instead to champion anti-imperialism in the abstract, or to focus on flashier subjects.OwlFancier posted:I mean if you put people in a place for long enough that tends to happen? What percentile of native blood does it take to qualify for right to live in a place?
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Feb 1, 2020 19:28
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Didn't Gibraltar overwhelmingly vote Remain? Whether or not they wish to remain British or have any right to remain British, which are separate subjects, it should at least be clear that they, quite understandably, want to remain connected in some sense to Spain and Europe, which would probably merit some sort of special status following the conclusion of Brexit. Drawing a conclusion about what the population wants based on pre-Brexit surveys and polling seems inaccurate at best, because the present situation is fundamentally different than it was before.
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Feb 1, 2020 19:35
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A Buttery Pastry posted:It's not a question of native blood percentages, it's a question of the people living in England being the primary descendants of these conquered peoples (or people who were allowed to move there by the same.) What do you think the people who live in gibraltar are, then?
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Feb 1, 2020 19:36
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The current inhabitants of England are descendants of invaders, true, but they're also descendants of the natives whose rights you're sarcastically invoking. So a) um imperialism is ok as long as you interbreed with the people you're colonising? Because, y'know, that's actually kind of standard. and b) this didn't also happen in Gibraltar?
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Feb 1, 2020 19:38
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Julio Cruz posted:gonna assume you've never been to the Channel Islands Yes but they're decent English tax evaders, not some filthy foreigners!
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Feb 1, 2020 19:44
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PT6A posted:Didn't Gibraltar overwhelmingly vote Remain? I mean, this true, but the margin of those pre-brexit votes are kinda relevent. They voted 17,000 to about 180 odd to tell Spain to piss off over the question of just joint sovreignity IIRC. It wasn't and isn't really a 51-49 thing Rakosi fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Feb 1, 2020 |
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Feb 1, 2020 19:45
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feedmegin posted:So a) um imperialism is ok as long as you interbreed with the people you're colonising? Because, y'know, that's actually kind of standard. one of paraguay's dictators, maybe the german one, had the populace do this so the indigenous people are a huge number of the population there
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Feb 1, 2020 19:48
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Not surprising to see the UK left resist attempts to reckon with the UK's imperialist past. At its core, it is no more able to confront the myths of Britain's imperial past than the Tories, even if it doesn't go so far as to celebrate it, preferring instead to champion anti-imperialism in the abstract, or to focus on flashier subjects.
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Feb 1, 2020 19:52
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feedmegin posted:So a) um imperialism is ok as long as you interbreed with the people you're colonising? Because, y'know, that's actually kind of standard. Guavanaut posted:Are you really trying to compare something like the Tories refusal to cede the BIOT back to the Chagossians with not wanting to cede territory to someone who conquered it by genocide where 98.9% of the residents don't want to be returned to the prior genocidal conquerors? A Buttery Pastry fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Feb 1, 2020 |
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Feb 1, 2020 19:53
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Modern Brits are the descendants of native populations that integrated smaller foreign groups into their makeup over time, rather than the descendants of settlers who subsumed the local natives into their group. More Bolivia, less the US. i dunno man I think brexit partly happened because a lot of racist mums and dads didn't think britain was made up of an intergrated beige genepool after all
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Feb 1, 2020 19:56
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Modern Brits are the descendants of native populations that integrated smaller foreign groups into their makeup over time, rather than the descendants of settlers who subsumed the local natives into their group. More Bolivia, less the US. Bolivia is a somewhat awkward comparison 'cos of the modern, ongoing, institutionalised slavery, though.
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Feb 1, 2020 19:57
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If you want to argue against people's views on imperial history you might want to come up with a better way of doing it than what is essentially the british approach to decolonization, but this time with definitely correct race science backing it up.
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Feb 1, 2020 19:58
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A Buttery Pastry posted:It's a matter of degree, not kind. It's not exactly the only time UK posters have betrayed thinking on the EU and foreigners in general to be much more in line with the Tories than they'd want to admit. Probably not out of any ill will (unlike the Tories), but because you can't grow up in a society drowning in imperialist apologia without integrating it into your world view. If we're talking in terms of conquest and empire rather than European royal slapfights, Morocco has far more of a claim to the rock than Spain does.
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Feb 1, 2020 19:59
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Pilchenstein posted:"man, are my balls blue" I've got blue balls hoping that you guys make it through the year okay and that Brexit doesn't affect the already marginalized and/or impoverished of the UK that badly  (or preferably not at all but let's be realistic)
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Feb 1, 2020 20:02
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we have owned gibraltar longer than the spanish have lmao. and 98% of the people there want to be British. its way more ours than theirs unless you are an OCD HoI4 player who hates border gore Spain has no claim, the treaty just gives them first dibs if we ever abandon it
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Feb 1, 2020 20:06
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OwlFancier posted:If you want to argue against people's views on imperial history you might want to come up with a better way of doing it than what is essentially the british approach to decolonization, but this time with definitely correct race science backing it up. Guavanaut posted:Except it isn't, because the BIOT was a matter of conquest, whereas the only conquest that happened it Gibraltar was by the people currently pissing and moaning about it. Guavanaut posted:If we're talking in terms of conquest and empire rather than European royal slapfights, Morocco has far more of a claim to the rock than Spain does.
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Feb 1, 2020 20:13
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In the history of mankind no territory can morally be gained or lost and ityool 2020 all borders should be reset to what they were before [insert arbritrary date of geopolitical correctness]
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Feb 1, 2020 20:19
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Morocco (or its predecessor) took it in its own act of imperialism.
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Feb 1, 2020 20:21
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Ended up in Brussels for the weekend slinging Magic cards. Think it was the right move.
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Feb 1, 2020 20:23
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Spain can get Gibraltar back when they undo all the help they gave our really big colony in declaring independence, which then went on to elect donald trump. Oh wait they cant, nevermind, i guess monkey piss peninsula is ours.
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Feb 1, 2020 20:25
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Went to RLB's event in Bristol, and got a very good reply to my question about Labour's role in community organising and parallel support structures. I suggested afterwards that it'd be nice for her campaign to push that, and I hope she does.
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Feb 1, 2020 20:29
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mad about territories!!!
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Feb 1, 2020 20:30
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