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Drone posted:Was at a party recently and, as things obviously very normally and commonly do at parties, conversation turned to EVE. Hearsay from others is that EVE Goons for the most part completely severed with SA because "SA has gone woke". It's weird how often "being woke" or "those sjw moralists" are simply pejorative conjugation of "people with morals"
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Dec 2, 2023 17:44
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andromache posted:Goonwaffe itself is 300ish people, broken into 3 populations. The first 40% or so are people who came into the corp from SA. Ya’ll can argue about how j4g or true goon or whatever but they met minimum requirements to come from SA into waffe. Another 20% are refugees that we’ve accumulated over the past 15 years of eve. Example: person I’d never talked to had a structure going abandoned. Dug into who this person was, they are a refugee from BAT Country from when Endie schismed in 2015. They’ve been in corp quietly handling their poo poo since then. TCF, Red Alliance, Wildly Inappropriate… there’s a significant number of rehomed refugees that we try to draw into engagement. The last 40% are people we’ve vouched into waffe because they are trying to escape the middle management hellscape they were in. Honestly they tend to cause the least problems and give ideas for other things to try. Didn’t enter my brain to set up corp bpos for anyone in corp with the role to copy from. Several returning SA members are just like “look at all this stuff! We’ve never had any of these programs before!” Not my ideas, just listen and implement the feasible ones. I always assume waffe not having the most basic poo poo was the trade off for not having paps.
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Dec 2, 2023 18:03
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andromache posted:Goonwaffe itself is 300ish people, broken into 3 populations. The first 40% or so are people who came into the corp from SA. Ya’ll can argue about how j4g or true goon or whatever but they met minimum requirements to come from SA into waffe. Another 20% are refugees that we’ve accumulated over the past 15 years of eve. Example: person I’d never talked to had a structure going abandoned. Dug into who this person was, they are a refugee from BAT Country from when Endie schismed in 2015. They’ve been in corp quietly handling their poo poo since then. TCF, Red Alliance, Wildly Inappropriate… there’s a significant number of rehomed refugees that we try to draw into engagement. The last 40% are people we’ve vouched into waffe because they are trying to escape the middle management hellscape they were in. Honestly they tend to cause the least problems and give ideas for other things to try. Didn’t enter my brain to set up corp bpos for anyone in corp with the role to copy from. Several returning SA members are just like “look at all this stuff! We’ve never had any of these programs before!” Not my ideas, just listen and implement the feasible ones. Agreed, Waffe has turned into a really chill and good place to be - and it feels like people are relatively serious when considering who they're vouching in; beyond, langanmyer, klexos, olga, lunar, marcus antistius, all really good acquisitions - and the others that have filtered in seem to be acclimatizing well
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Dec 2, 2023 18:17
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DrHammond posted:I know you're not CICADA but that the line member response is "Oh we have a HR process for that" seems to say a lot. So if I approach a Gooseflock line member and ask "hey one of your member corps is suspiciously racist", are they gonna do something else than "oh okay go talk to whomever is in charge of those things"? Guess what, that too is a HR process, it's just a process that is scaled down to the organisation's size.
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Dec 2, 2023 18:35
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EVE Online is a lot like the fictional setting of "universal century gundam." There are no good governments. Everything is morally ambiguous like any space war. But much like the spacenoid and earthnoid newtype heroes of this fictional setting, we can choose not to fly with people named "shekelstein"
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Dec 2, 2023 18:56
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Saithir posted:So if I approach a Gooseflock line member and ask "hey one of your member corps is suspiciously racist", are they gonna do something else than "oh okay go talk to whomever is in charge of those things"? I understand the point you're trying to make, but we literally had this happen less than a week ago with an alliance membercorp. Yes, there was an "alerting of important people" to "do the thing" and yes, we can get away with a much more lightweight version of that because of our size... But there was also an immediate and visceral reaction from every person in discord to go full knives out. An entire corp was kicked from our small alliance and is now gleefully kill on sight for everyone here. I might be being unfair to Goonwaffe itself, andromache seems like a cool dude, but I don't think you can claim that the response in the Imperium community would be anywhere near that swift or universal. My point wasn't meant to be "just having a HR process is insufficient", it's "there's literally a rando in the thread right now that just shoulder shrugs and points to the HR office door, and thinks that's what anti-racism means". Probably unfair to characterize things based on the posting of a 15-day-old regdate, but I still feel it points to an important cultural difference. As I said though, and to your point, maybe that's just an unavoidable consequence of having a community whos daily active members number in the tens instead of the thousands.
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Dec 2, 2023 18:57
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In summary: Sov sucks, honk more. 
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Dec 2, 2023 18:59
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Load bearing racism vs load bearing wokeness
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Dec 2, 2023 19:03
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no one wants to mine veldspar anymore because of wokeness
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Dec 2, 2023 19:06
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Sickening posted:I always assume waffe not having the most basic poo poo was the trade off for not having paps. it's pretty amazing what can be accomplished when the day-to-day operator isn't microdosing and getting banned from vampire the masquerade larping communities andromache has been really good for the corp - no 'isms tolerated, fat srp bonuses, free ships every month, a ready-fit capital cache, massive reaction formula and bpo libraries, no pap requirements means I can be really picky about who I fly with, lots of people who "do stuff" are in waffe so it has ended up being very friendly for people trying to learn new things, it's relatively active on both jabber and discord which is a surprise - I always thought waffe would be a retirement home when I first got into it and I'm glad at some culture survived the schism I really like Waffe even if the alliance has Issues ClCADA posted:Honestly you don’t need to respond to me or my opinion my opinion doesn’t mean poo poo, I’m only here because I forgot my old email and log in from a loving decade ago and found this forum and thought I’d stay for a bit. Il probably last here long enough before someone reports my lovely posting again. Don't worry about it, welcome back - posting takes some getting use to and you'll learn to be gut reactive to Bad poo poo to beyond "tell hr" Anyways my effort post was kind of aggressive (especially when I didn't want it to be) I don't know what came over me, sorry if it made anyone reading it upset or uncomfortable - I think i'm just tired I remember a conversation from a TV show (might've been ricardo and mortimer) where the characters were like "Do you want homeless people to have homes?" "Yes" "Are you going to help build them?" "No?" "Then what was the point of saying yes?" maybe i'm just still frustrated at the trust bust the whole thing was / still is saying "i'm sorry, I was wrong" shouldn't be hard, standing up for what you claim to believe in shouldn't be hard, being willing to risk all your space pixels for the people around you shouldn't be hard, being a little less greedy should not be hard, being a little more respectful of peoples time shouldn't be hard, taking yourself less seriously shouldn't be hard
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Dec 2, 2023 19:09
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Dalmuti posted:no one wants to mine veldspar anymore because of wokeness gently caress me i've been trying to think of a good dril post for like six hours and you made it in like a minute
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Dec 2, 2023 19:11
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Saithir posted:So if I approach a Gooseflock line member and ask "hey one of your member corps is suspiciously racist", are they gonna do something else than "oh okay go talk to whomever is in charge of those things"? Goonswarm Federation at this point has over 90 member corporations. So while it’s pretty straightforward for me to put 2 in the back of the head of someone screwing around in Goonwaffe, it is and should be more standardized and controlled when applied to an organization of 7,000 actual people. Easiest way to think about is through the metaphor of anime masterpiece The One Piece. You know how they hit you in the face repeatedly and obviously with the theme that the “Real treasure is the friends you make along the way?” Well the Imperium is very much trying to “win” Eve, whatever that means, and win the treasure. They think they are that Mihawk guy with the big sword, in reality probably closer to that annoying goddamn clown that can’t be killed. If you want to “win” the game eve online in the nullsec political environment and recognize THAT is the primary goal of the organization, the Imperium is probably fine. If the goal is a great, welcoming, and fun community first and “winning” second then Goosefleet is the clear choice. Having been continuously active in Goonswarm since 2010 I can see how much better things are compared to how they were, but I know it’s also not as fast as many would like.
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Dec 2, 2023 19:47
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andromache posted:If you want to “win” the game eve online in the nullsec political environment and recognize THAT is the primary goal of the organization, the Imperium is probably fine. If the goal is a great, welcoming, and fun community first and “winning” second then Goosefleet is the clear choice. Having been continuously active in Goonswarm since 2010 I can see how much better things are compared to how they were, but I know it’s also not as fast as many would like.  Yeah that's it tbh. I never want to touch Sov Null again, I'd rather join pubs in FW.
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Dec 2, 2023 19:51
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psilocybin laden posted:gently caress me i've been trying to think of a good dril post for like six hours and you made it in like a minute D name supremacy, m8
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Dec 2, 2023 20:02
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andromache posted:If you want to “win” the game eve online in the nullsec political environment and recognize THAT is the primary goal of the organization, the Imperium is probably fine. [...]Having been continuously active in Goonswarm since 2010 I can see how much better things are compared to how they were, but I know it’s also not as fast as many would like. Man this just reads up like straight-up apologia for associating with certain types of people If you wanna win the game, you gotta be buds with problematic folks
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Dec 2, 2023 20:02
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Drone posted:Man this just reads up like straight-up apologia for associating with certain types of people have you ever tried to shift the culture of a large organization comprised of egotistical, self-absorbed baby men? how long did it take you?
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Dec 2, 2023 20:07
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twigplant posted:have you ever tried to shift the culture of a large organization comprised of egotistical, self-absorbed baby men? how long did it take you? Hot take: keeping those people inside the alliance only matters if you prioritise "win eve online"
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Dec 2, 2023 20:11
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the w in wspace is for woke
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Dec 2, 2023 20:12
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twigplant posted:have you ever tried to shift the culture of a large organization comprised of egotistical, self-absorbed baby men? how long did it take you? He just snaps his fingers and everyone is thinking lik he does. :magic:
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Dec 2, 2023 20:15
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Seems like a good solution to all this is for Waffe to join the Goose alliance
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Dec 2, 2023 20:33
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Honestly after that PL plant of a director completely stripped Waffe of trillions in ISK, rental ships, BPOs, and other corp assets a few weeks ago, the mangy space Geese are probably more financially, logistically, and culturally prepared to handle new and returning SA J4Gs unless there's a risk of the same thing happening to them in the near future.
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Dec 2, 2023 20:35
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Nyan Bread posted:Honestly after that PL plant of a director completely stripped Waffe of trillions in ISK, rental ships, BPOs, and other corp assets a few weeks ago, the mangy space Geese are probably more financially, logistically, and culturally prepared to handle new and returning SA J4Gs unless there's a risk of the same thing happening to them in the near future. i'm about to do it to geese and they'll never see it coming :gootse:
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Dec 2, 2023 20:40
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Nyan Bread posted:Honestly after that PL plant of a director completely stripped Waffe of trillions in ISK, rental ships, BPOs, and other corp assets a few weeks ago, the mangy space Geese are probably more financially, logistically, and culturally prepared to handle new and returning SA J4Gs unless there's a risk of the same thing happening to them in the near future. Goons were due for another internal heist and as always we all pitched in and tried to patch up the damage. The really unusual dick move was off-lining the clone bay, but theft happens all the time. I think most goons just found it funny and/or interesting. Some other alliances/blocs get crippled by something like that but at least in terms of morale GEWNS just carries on every time it happens.
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Dec 2, 2023 20:51
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Weren't there plenty of none-sa goons hurf durfing about it on reddit and sending Jay death threats?
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Dec 2, 2023 21:05
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Dalmuti posted:protip: no one is going to look down on you if you stop playing eve what if I told you I’ve seen bubbles in hi-sec?
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Dec 2, 2023 21:05
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Office Thug posted:Goons were due for another internal heist and as always we all pitched in and tried to patch up the damage. The really unusual dick move was off-lining the clone bay, but theft happens all the time. I think most goons just found it funny and/or interesting. I am solidly in the camp of that it'd better for the tax paying line bee who's been hoodwinked fight in the extermination wars for Goons get rewarded with regular internal shakeups of organizational mold and mildew as opposed to regular heists of common property by some of director's friends, but I guess it's hard to change a true believer's mindset.
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Dec 2, 2023 21:09
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Cast_No_Shadow posted:Weren't there plenty of none-sa goons hurf durfing about it on reddit and sending Jay death threats? people who have rage issues and post on reddit is a big demographic cohort of eve players. if you’re curious the center point of that Venn diagram is hammy who is still banned from r/houseplants
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Dec 2, 2023 21:10
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I am not saying you experience is wrong, its just not what I see. The jabber channel is quiet. The in game channel is even more so. Outside of joining a fleet like any of alliance member there doesn't feel like anything corp centric outside of not having paps. Maybe I can help mine some of the corp moons when they frack? Get some SRP benefit if I dare roll the dice (its not worth the potential trouble IMO). Not saying having a no pressure nullsec eve situation isn't cool, but I am just not getting the same game experience you are.
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Dec 2, 2023 21:16
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I like playing EVE Online again. It's the only game that still gets the adrenaline running when you're overheating that prop mod to land a scram on foe. I don't care about nullsec. I just wanna honk, and be silly on the neatest internet spaceship game still running twenty years onward. Fly Rifters, Fly! On the way to victory! Now hit enter send
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Dec 2, 2023 21:32
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Cast_No_Shadow posted:Weren't there plenty of none-sa goons hurf durfing about it on reddit and sending Jay death threats? Yeah that's symptomatic of the larger problem that The Imperium decided to shed its "self-check" responsibility, and has shown signs of reacting violently to anything threatening to call out bad behavior within the organization (see Delta Schism). That self-check responsibility, when working properly, helps keep out the "rear end in a top hat/creepazoid/-inists and -phobe" types and helps keep people from hurting other people. It's something that used to be done in the organization, although in a rather rough way, but can still be applied today with softer methods and accumulated experiences in good communication. It's hard to say if The Imperium will find a resolution to this problem or fracture into smaller tribes, with a few of those maintaining some of the historical and modern-day cultural habits we goons consider "good". The historical stuff is also especially important as a kind of yardstick reference you want to stay away from in most cases, cause stuff that was fine in 2006 is usually not fine today, and everyone should be aware of that history and should agree not to go back there. My hope is that Delta's sacrifice ultimately won't be in vain and will help The Imperium regain that ability it used to have to "self-check", it was never perfect (see Xenuria) but it at least kept both goons and non-goons in line for the most part.
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Dec 2, 2023 21:36
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Step 1 of regaining self-check would be blanket pardons for all Delta "schismatics".
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Dec 2, 2023 21:42
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dragonshardz posted:Step 1 of regaining self-check would be blanket pardons for all Delta "schismatics". according to Merkelderpelfourchan, the line on that is "over leadership's dead bodies". I should know, I asked and wasn't even the worst
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Dec 2, 2023 21:52
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dragonshardz posted:Step 1 of regaining self-check would be blanket pardons for all Delta "schismatics". It wouldn't be the only possibility but it would probably be the best first step. Sometimes you need to bite the bullet and apologize for something you did even if you felt or still feel you were in the right, just so you can reopen some doors and reach a sort of positive resolution not just for the organization but also for yourself at the end of the day. In general you need to leave your ego at the door if you want to move forward in any sort of interpersonal conflict situation, otherwise it's just going to be a band-aid on a broken bone at best. Delta getting an apology, regardless of how they take it, would be a critical and important step towards taking responsibility, and that does naturally lead to self-check culture.
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Dec 2, 2023 21:53
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It's a case of either the org doesn't think there was an issue and deltas were screaming about nothing and letting them back in would be admitting there is serious flaws in all levels of the org OR nothing's changed, the org's still full of douchebag pubbies and there would be posts about it you wouldn't believe
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Dec 2, 2023 21:59
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Claiming you want to do cultural revolution while repping Mao Zedong, literal worst human being on earth, seems a bit counterproductive.
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Dec 2, 2023 22:11
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Groggy nard posted:Claiming you want to do cultural revolution while repping Mao Zedong, literal worst human being on earth, seems a bit counterproductive. Pretty sure Mao is dead and thus no longer a human being on earth
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Dec 2, 2023 22:15
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Groggy nard posted:Claiming you want to do cultural revolution while repping Mao Zedong, literal worst human being on earth, seems a bit counterproductive. Strong words when Elon Musk is out there posting through the pain everyday.
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Dec 2, 2023 22:17
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Yeah, why can't the space guilds RP something fun like ba'athism instead?
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Dec 2, 2023 22:20
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corgski posted:Strong words when Elon Musk is out there posting through the pain everyday. I don't think Musk has the body count to match... yet.
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Dec 2, 2023 22:22
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ShaneMacGowansTeeth posted:It's a case of either the org doesn't think there was an issue and deltas were screaming about nothing and letting them back in would be admitting there is serious flaws in all levels of the org OR nothing's changed, the org's still full of douchebag pubbies and there would be posts about it you wouldn't believe Something I don't think many people realize is that the org already admitted the Deltas were right when they reacted so violently towards them. They felt so threatened they exiled an entire group of people when called out. By not addressing this, the org continues to silently admit the problem persists in some way or form, even if maybe parts of the problem have since been attenuated. But at the same time the problem is pretty gargantuan if you also look at how other people in The Imperium reacted in general to the entire situation, with a non-insignificant number of people somehow still honestly thinking Mittani and Xenuria did nothing wrong and Delta were just terrorists trying to rip apart their perfect organization.
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Dec 2, 2023 22:24
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