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We'll just have to see how it plays out. I know it's a slippery slope argument, but what if the next tier of crafting tools are locked behind specialisms? (or at least items crafted specialisms) Your choice will either be to spend a weeks worth of red scrips to respecialize, find someone else who can craft it, or go spend ungodly amounts on the market board. This problem is reduced somewhat for goons since we have such a large group that we'll almost always have people available to craft what's needed, but for many people, they don't have connections like that. It's just frustrating in general. Reducing and limiting what people can do is never fun - especially in a game that's main selling point is "you can do everything"
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Nov 13, 2015 21:03
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Boten Anna posted:Crafting is kind of a goofy thing anyway though, if you let everyone do everything then a few dedicated people control the market and there's little incentive for casual crafting. At least with specialization you end up with multiple areas where those few dedicated people congregate, lowering the bar a little bit, though what really helps is stuff like FC airships requiring an ungodly amount of midend materials so that there's a market for goddamned near everything, or glamor crystals which are a billion common consumables that will never see the end of demand. Specialization might discourage people from controlling the market, but not any less than they were already. Retainer space as well as time vs. cost efficiency is very important and the ability to control the flow into the marketboard of the materials that you consistently use as well as what is produced by those materials is usually how a single crafter can control a section of the market. As such one crafter will typically only be focusing on the lucrative items of 2 or 3 classes at a time when it comes to aggressively selling. I focused the majority of my efforts on Kirimu and LTW in 2.4 and 2.5 and branched out into the offhand's and Artisan's clothing from there with a few other goons; and specialization wouldn't have changed much. If dual specialization was required I think it would limit the market control and free up a lot of the ability for players to try and find a unique niche to make money, but it would also make most crafters pretty angry tbh. Specialization doesn't really feel unique, it just stops us from making the other items we would have made on the side (such as me not being able to make left side crafter gear since I don't have WVR specialization). So while it might stop the super market barons who do nothing but sell items and craft all day every day, it really hasn't affected the lucrative markets that people were focusing on already since those super market barons don't really exist. Or at least that they would be focusing on if Heavensward's economy wasn't hosed to high heaven. Regardless you aren't wrong about it lowering the bar a bit, but the bar it's lowering is for lucrative items rather than items that people who are trying to make money will be looking at. Most people trying to make money will be hesitant to invest in trying to make money off the specialization crafts because they're usually quite expensive. Samba De Amigo fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Nov 13, 2015 |
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Nov 13, 2015 21:09
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I doubt they'll do something like that but who knows, it seems like specialization should be for certain high-end recipes and endproducts thereof, it'd be kind of hosed if you needed specialization stuff from a different crafting class for each finished product or some poo poo like that (they don't do that............. do they?) but it makes sense as a thing where all the Endgame Gearpiece of Body Part and Eorzean High Fashion recipes are. e: Thanks Samba, yeah I trust your judgement on this WAY more than my own, heh.
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Nov 13, 2015 21:10
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Boten Anna posted:Crafting is kind of a goofy thing anyway though, if you let everyone do everything then a few dedicated people control the market and there's little incentive for casual crafting. In my opinion, that's because of the way the crafting system itself was designed from 2.0 onward. Between the extremely high usefulness of having certain craft's cross-class abilities and how the system intertwines base materials between each of the crafts, those are what discourage people from treating it casually. The specialist system doesn't really do anything noteworthy to fix that, it just adds an even more volatile system to crafting in the form of specialist actions and restricts what people can make, which at the end of the day, is still going to cause those few dedicated people (the ones who level actual alts so they have access to all the specializations) to stranglehold those markets, except now they just have even less competition. If they wanted to encourage casual crafting more, the specialist system should have a) let you bypass some material requirements on the crafts so that you don't have to rely so much on other crafts for base mats and b) dropped the progress/quality requirements on those crafts that you specialize in to make it easier to get those HQs without needing cross-class abilities.
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Nov 13, 2015 21:10
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And I know at least a handful of the people that are going to be the endgame market baron type that do nothing but log on to craft and control the market, will often have a second account anyway. So specialisms still won't affect them. Specialisms, in the currently implementation, disproportionally hurt casual players who like leveling all crafting classes compared to the "market baron" types. And like others have said, most crafters already specialize in their markets just because the act of crafting is time consuming and you can only do so much. It would be nearly impossible for a small group of people to flood and control every single market in the game. It is one of the benefits of there being so many loving items and mats in the game. Lumis posted:If they wanted to encourage casual crafting more, the specialist system should have a) let you bypass some material requirements on the crafts so that you don't have to rely so much on other crafts for base mats and b) dropped the progress/quality requirements on those crafts that you specialize in to make it easier to get those HQs without needing cross-class abilities. This is exactly my feelings. Specialisms should help you do better, not exclude you. If specialisms just gave a crafting boost, the lack of specialisms could be overcome by extra work. Right now, the lack of a specialisms precludes you from crafting items you mind need. Mordiceius fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Nov 13, 2015 |
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Nov 13, 2015 21:15
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I must say that the most frustrating and boring thing I've done thus far in this game is finding all of the aether currents in hw zones.
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Nov 13, 2015 21:17
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Mordiceius posted:And I know at least a handful of the people that are going to be the endgame market baron type that do nothing but log on to craft and control the market, will often have a second account anyway. So specialisms still won't affect them. Apparently the avatar comes with the powers, huh
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Nov 13, 2015 21:20
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Ultimately I wouldn't say that specialization is what hurt crafters the most coming into HW, as I feel that how Red Scripts and material procurement were handled were the big cause, but it definitely didn't help. It made crafters have to reach out to their fellow crafters more readily for assistance which was nice. Specialization isn't bad in-and-of itself, but it shouldn't have been a lockout feature and more of a advantage feature towards crafts with much higher difficulties. Also If you'll excuse me, I need to go wedgie myself now Samba De Amigo fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Nov 13, 2015 |
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Nov 13, 2015 21:21
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Also while crafters got shafted and the economy is hosed really hard right now, the ones that suffered the most honestly from all this are the people that prefer to gather than craft. Gatherers were treated as if they were just stepping stones to crafters and/or crafters themselves, and not as if they were different players. They're still are being treated this way by SE ever since HW launched. Previously gatherer's served a functionality of providing the needs of crafters so crafters could just craft. This lead to prices being more stable during ARR for gathered materials and demand was much higher because not only were there better things for crafters to do in ARR, but also gatherer's didn't have to choose between advancing their abilities and pandering to the needs of the crafters. They could just watch and speculate the needs of crafters and appropriate demand would dictate sufficient supply prices. Also there were just actually recipes that required HQ gatherer goods that were sufficiently difficult to obtain. That isn't the case anymore. There's jack all for gatherer's to collect and expect money from now almost. The only poo poo gatherer's make money off of now is like HQ aether sands and clusters, what the gently caress SE. Samba De Amigo fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Nov 13, 2015 |
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Nov 13, 2015 21:28
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Boten Anna posted:Are people leaving from PBC for Diadem? If we still need to send them on regular ventures it might behoove us to work out a schedule where we all take turns being the Diadem Bitch FC so the others can airship venture, but I say this with the caveat that Kara is probably the one to coordinate with this on from TPT. As far as I'm aware a single airship has been used 4 times for Diadem in PBC, the ships are completely underutlized, probably in part because no one who cares is in both not in the diadem LS and is in PBC. There's not really a reason not to use one ship for item collection.
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Nov 13, 2015 21:30
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Also, since yesterday morning you haven't had to go to DGKK or TPT to go to Diadem hard, I think there's been some miscommunication about that
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Nov 13, 2015 21:33
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Anderron Shi posted:I must say that the most frustrating and boring thing I've done thus far in this game is finding all of the aether currents in hw zones. Good news, you can now beg for a ride on someone's draft or wedding chocobo!
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Nov 13, 2015 21:35
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The Chairman posted:Also, since yesterday morning you haven't had to go to DGKK or TPT to go to Diadem hard, I think there's been some miscommunication about that The leaders have to be there if you intend to enter as an alliance, and people need gas tanks to join. So while, yes, most people don't have to go anywhere, it tends to be necessary anyway just to get everybody in order.
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Nov 13, 2015 21:36
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The hard part is I just don't know of a Theme Park MMO that really ever got crafting right at all so there's not even a good example to work from. The best way to keep a healthy "middle class" economy is to have a lot of consumables the playerbase needs, but if you require too many it raises demand for RMT or drives players away who aren't good at making money. As such this requires people at the middle and the top to be spending their money in a way that's accessible to the bottom, but these games are absolutely godawful at that. The game system's gil sinks and fountains work as something of proxy for a tax system that simulates that, but this is generally done poorly as well. They've certainly gotten better at this and done a good job of nudging the economy in the right direction, adding things like housing which delete massive amounts of gil from the economy from the mid and high end and other more subtle gil sinks such as the items you buy with gil for that one relic step, having beast tribes reward you with access to a vendor with stuff you'll want to buy, as well as handing out a good amount of money via daily, weekly, and one-time quest rewards (note that you now get 5000 gil for most major quests and 10k for huge endcap ones, whereas 5k a ginormous reward for finishing the 2.0 story, for instance) to things people on the low end are doing anyway, but I still think they could improve a lot as far as giving the low end stuff the mid/high end wants. One weirdly good example of this kind of thing was FFXI, where the high end was all about crafting (and byne bux but lets not get ahead of ourselves), crafting was all about absurd amounts of grinding, and absurd amounts of grinding meant blowing up an ungodly number of crystals. Crystals were a pain in the rear end to go farm for, but everyone was getting them as they fought, and were a consistent way to get spending money in that game. This makes me wonder if Materia might move in this direction, especially with the raid changes. It's already a huge pain in the rear end to go farm explicitly since spiritbonding is the goddamned worst, so most of it probably comes from quest rewards. Note that a key feature of Diadem is giving you garbage that can be spiritbound and more importantly, materia directly from spoils. The issue XIV has in particular is the market board system is practically designed to enable "I farmed it so it was free" dipshits crashing any commodity market into the ground where the supply and demand isn't carefully balanced, combined with its proclivity toward a design where whatever the hot commodity is (ixali tokens, say) only lasts for a week or two before that curve gets hosed. This game really needs to add (back) goddamned buy orders so that these people can just sell to those instead of ruining markets, as well as making the default selling price 1g below current lowest price or something.
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Nov 13, 2015 21:36
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kharaa posted:The leaders have to be there if you intend to enter as an alliance, and people need gas tanks to join. So while, yes, most people don't have to go anywhere, it tends to be necessary anyway just to get everybody in order. I mean that people think that you can't fly to Diadem HM from PBC so nobody is using PBC ships PBC also has several hundred gas tanks in the bank so if you're in PBC, pick up a tank from your own bank first before waiting for someone from DGKK/TPT to hand you one
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Nov 13, 2015 21:38
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The Chairman posted:I mean that people think that you can't fly to Diadem HM from PBC so nobody is using PBC ships I haven't seen anyone from PBC assembling diadem parties  vv gotcha kojei fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Nov 13, 2015 |
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Nov 13, 2015 21:39
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kharaa posted:I haven't seen anyone from PBC assembling diadem parties Right, people aren't assembling them because they think that PBC can't do them, that's what I'm trying to convey I've had people tell me that they thought PBC didn't have it unlocked because there was no notification that they could go do it The Chairman fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Nov 13, 2015 |
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Nov 13, 2015 21:40
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You're pretty spot on. When Materia V finally come into play the market should stabilize a bit more as hundreds of millions of gil will vanish every day from the server. Couple that with the fact that favor mats can now be farmed via diadem at the same time as those Materia V and you're looking at an economy that will stabilize ideally within a few patches. Oh also reclaiming houses will make it so that more gil will vanish when houses are inevitably reclaimed and lose %'s of their value to the owner while the new buyer will forever lose gil from buying. It probably won't be as balanced as ARR, but they did relatively well this patch. Consumables have been reintroduced that benefit classes highly, such as triple flare rotations being back (to my understanding), Materia are finally being reintroduced, and the materials that crafters desire to not only gear themselves but also make glamour gear and other wants are no longer locked behind an invisible wall that limits the introduction of those materials into the server. We first saw this with Ixali glue, but Ixali glue was not done quite as poorly as favor mats were. So while they retained their high value for nearly the entirety of 2.4 and 2.5, they eventually did crash. It took a long time though because they never lost their time based restriction, as they were based on how many Ixali oakknots you could obtain in one day. Removing the time locking aspect of NQ favor mats is a step in the right direction. While I might still be on the fence about the aetheric 210 drops from Diadem, I do feel like Diadem itself is a huge proponent of moving forward with re-balancing the economy of HW. The only thing I dislike about it is that it gives an avenue of hunters/diadem-goers/booty warriors, whatever you guys want to call yourselves, of interacting with the needs of the crafters more than before. Previously the interaction was more heavily reliant on gatherers, but as of now the booty warriors of the diadem isles are a more important source of materials to crafters than gatherers. Samba De Amigo fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Nov 13, 2015 |
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Nov 13, 2015 21:44
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I think I saw one person trying to assemble a Diadem thing in PBC at all since 3.1 landed. Not that I really care since I can't be bothered to unlock it since it sounds like it's a horrible hour and a half slog which I don't particularly feel like dedicating time to.
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Nov 13, 2015 21:49
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Xenoveritas posted:I think I saw one person trying to assemble a Diadem thing in PBC at all since 3.1 landed. Not that I really care since I can't be bothered to unlock it since it sounds like it's a horrible hour and a half slog which I don't particularly feel like dedicating time to. I have seen you ask this in FC chat and I know for a fact that you've been told that it's not something you need to unlock edit: sorry, I think I'm just getting a little frustrated by people who can't read patch notes this time around, a whole lot of people asking simple questions that are answered directly on the Lodestone The Chairman fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Nov 13, 2015 |
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Nov 13, 2015 21:53
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The Chairman posted:I have seen you ask this in FC chat and I know for a fact that you've been told that it's not something you need to unlock It's been bad this time, yeah. I've even caught myself doing it a bit and then I said "well poo poo I can read the notes why am I asking?"
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Nov 13, 2015 22:02
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I appreciate that they just when Squenix decided they wouldn't fix PLD they also made it a lot easier to get out. 
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Nov 13, 2015 22:41
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KaneTW posted:DF right now is total hell though. I'm leveling my drk with a friend who is leveling ast and its amazing how many bad dps we are running into. A bard who only pressed 1, no songs and never did a DOT. We actually stopped doing dungeons one day when we kept running into the same MCH who just hit 1 and had a 50/50 chance in actually throwing down a turret. Really annoying when I do big pulls and I run out of cooldowns and my friend runs out of MP cause the mobs die so loving slowly cause the DPS just hits 1 over and over. Whats AOE? Leal fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Nov 13, 2015 |
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Nov 13, 2015 22:46
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I'm excited for when they finally put in the training stadium. But then again, 90% of the players will probably ignore it. One of my wife's classmates has been playing for like six months and is obsessive about everything in this game and now raids regularly but he has never even been to the Gold Saucer. His response when she asked him about it: "What's that?"
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Nov 13, 2015 22:52
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Samba De Amigo posted:Also while crafters got shafted and the economy is hosed really hard right now, the ones that suffered the most honestly from all this are the people that prefer to gather than craft. Gatherers were treated as if they were just stepping stones to crafters and/or crafters themselves, and not as if they were different players. They're still are being treated this way by SE ever since HW launched. Samba I'm just curious if your read is the same as mine: my take is that the chief failing of the economy right now where crafters are concerned is lack of demand. Crafters basically don't have anything to make that people really want at the high end, not even for themselves. The top of the line crafting gear for example offers very little meaningful advantage because what are you going to make with it that you weren't already making with Delineation spam?
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Nov 13, 2015 22:53
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You guys look too hard at the high end, and not enough at the entire market. I tell you the truth, I've made 2 mil since Tuesday morning. I haven't been able to keep my glamour crystals in stock, because they keep selling out, with people wanting to reglamour their old stuff over their new Diadem poo poo, or their new Bloodborne gear over their existing crap. You can't *always* be making money at the high end with the one-shot-3-million sale. You gotta come down now and then for the bulk sales. Now, maybe that's too "workaday" for you guys, and I guess I understand that. But if you hustle and undercut, sell singles at a premium, and bulk at a discount, you can still make money when your expensive crap isn't selling. Or don't, and just let me keep cleaning house. =P SwissArmyDruid fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Nov 13, 2015 |
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Nov 13, 2015 23:29
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SwissArmyDruid posted:You guys look too hard at the high end, and not enough at the entire market. I tell you the truth, I've made 2 mil since Tuesday morning. I haven't been able to keep my glamour crystals in stock, because they keep selling out, with people wanting to reglamour their old stuff over their new Diadem poo poo, or their new Bloodborne gear over their existing crap. 
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Nov 13, 2015 23:34
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SwissArmyDruid posted:You guys look too hard at the high end, and not enough at the entire market. I tell you the truth, I've made 2 mil since Tuesday morning. I haven't been able to keep my glamour crystals in stock, because they keep selling out, with people wanting to reglamour their old stuff over their new Diadem poo poo, or their new Bloodborne gear over their existing crap. That's not what people were discussing?
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Nov 13, 2015 23:42
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luckily i just make enough money IRL so I can just buy gil whenever i need some 
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Nov 13, 2015 23:49
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SwissArmyDruid posted:You guys look too hard at the high end, and not enough at the entire market. I tell you the truth, I've made 2 mil since Tuesday morning. I haven't been able to keep my glamour crystals in stock, because they keep selling out, with people wanting to reglamour their old stuff over their new Diadem poo poo, or their new Bloodborne gear over their existing crap. This is just what always happens after a patch. The problem is you'll make more in the few days after a patch than in the subsequent weeks, at least that seems to be what's going to happen here.
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Nov 13, 2015 23:54
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Samba De Amigo posted:Soundtrack releases for this game are handled in a really silly way. You won't see anything physical for a while, but if you want to pay $1.29 per track there's about 10 tracks from HW released on iTunes. For XIV music it's either their overpriced $50 blu-ray OSTs or iTunes. iTunes is fine, i got the ARR OST from there. I just couldn't find any HW stuff.
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Nov 13, 2015 23:56
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I have to wonder what the Materia and crafting changes are going to do for the market. They've said that come 3.2 crafted gear is going to be a lot stronger. Before this crafted gear was primarily useful for buying when you're leveling other classes and the occasional melded accessory. I wonder how much stronger will it be. Will it compare to the basic Tomestone gear? With only the big endgame raid being better?
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Nov 14, 2015 00:29
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Mordiceius posted:I'm excited for when they finally put in the training stadium. But then again, 90% of the players will probably ignore it. One of my wife's classmates has been playing for like six months and is obsessive about everything in this game and now raids regularly but he has never even been to the Gold Saucer. I was helping a friend level a new character on a server we had a mutual friend on and he's had his account since 1.0. He was level 49 and trying to hit 50 when I asked how many fates he needed to get the challenge log bonus and he had no idea what I was talking about. To be fair, he only played at launch before starting up earlier this year so he hadn't realized it had been a thing patched in, but the noise he made when he got it and realized he missed out on all those exp bonuses was funny in a kind of sad way. I probably should had realized something was amiss when he was surprised at how I seemed to be leveling much more faster than him.
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Nov 14, 2015 00:35
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Pews posted:luckily i just make enough money IRL so I can just buy gil whenever i need some Guess we will need to look for a new whm for our static as well.
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Nov 14, 2015 00:41
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SwissArmyDruid posted:You guys look too hard at the high end, and not enough at the entire market. I tell you the truth, I've made 2 mil since Tuesday morning. I haven't been able to keep my glamour crystals in stock, because they keep selling out, with people wanting to reglamour their old stuff over their new Diadem poo poo, or their new Bloodborne gear over their existing crap. drat it took almost 2 years but we've finally uncovered the fact that you're brooklynn master
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Nov 14, 2015 00:44
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I was hearing crazy numbers for Relic light in 3.1, but I just ran 4 Brilliant Sastashas and my glass shows no Aetheric activity still. Has anyone posted actual numbers?
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Nov 14, 2015 00:54
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Doublestep posted:drat it took almost 2 years but we've finally uncovered the fact that you're brooklynn master Let's not say things we can't take back
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Nov 14, 2015 00:57
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Even if Brilliant was up to 48 light you'd still be 192/2000. Good loving luck bro. Belzac fucked around with this message at 01:00 on Nov 14, 2015 |
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Nov 14, 2015 00:58
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nuru posted:I was hearing crazy numbers for Relic light in 3.1, but I just ran 4 Brilliant Sastashas and my glass shows no Aetheric activity still. Has anyone posted actual numbers? Even if the old brilliant value was doubled (48 points), you'd still have sub 200 lights for any activity to show on your spy glass. It looks like most of the applications to view your exactly light value haven't been updated since 3.0 launch :/ https://github.com/MartinKuschnik/FFXIV-Zodiac-Glass https://github.com/SG57/FFXIV-Nexus-Progress
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Nov 14, 2015 00:58
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Holyshoot posted:Guess we will need to look for a new whm for our static as well. you'll never find another WHM with 100% handwerk guaranteed
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Nov 14, 2015 01:00
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