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zoux posted:In the 191 series, when does slavery end, and how is the treatment of black people in the CSA going forward? In the US, slavery ends in 1865, right when it happened in reality. Due to there being only one slave state left in the Union, there was little support for maintaining the institution. Blacks are scapegoated for a generation or two, but fairly quickly gain a role pretty close to the real world one. Slavery ends in the Confederacy de jure at some point after the Second Mexican War in 1881, when the British and French make abolition a requirement for providing aid to the Confederacy in that war. After that, they're heavily restricted (unable to possess firearms or surnames, need permission to move or change jobs, must carry documents at all times showing who they are, where they're allowed to work, and where they live, and not permitted to read a large number of books (such as those of prominent socialists like Marx, Engels, and Abraham Lincoln) that are otherwise legal) Residents of the Confederacy until after the black socialist uprisings of 1916, when Confederate President Woodrow Wilson, desperate for manpower in the losing war against the United States and hoping that giving blacks a stake in the country will keep them from burning it down, pushes through a bill authorizing the recruitment of black regiments with the reward of full citizenship. The Confederacy loses the war despite this, and between the small number of black citizens and the passbook system having been ripped apart during the war, until the Great Depression hits and a disgruntled artillery sergeant makes blacks a scapegoat to fuel his rise to the Presidency. At this point all the restrictions are redoubled, blacks start being shipped to camps en masse, and the Confederate Government decides to Reduce the Population of said camps. After the US crushes and conquers the Confederacy, the relatively few surviving blacks (the majority of which were in active rebellion and enlisted directly into an auxiliary US militia) are given absolute and total equality with whites in the newly conquered regions, and it is quite plain that it won't be long before the rest of the US follows suit. EDIT: One of the most interesting things about this series is that Turtledove is very, very good at making his characters believable, and it is difficult to read through the series and still think "well, as bad as the Holocaust was, it couldn't happen here". The series is pretty valuable for this reason alone. Gnoman fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Jul 20, 2017 |
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Jul 20, 2017 20:53
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Deptfordx posted:The other twists were, Aliens!, takes place in America, and the most recent (clearly getting desparate at this point) War starts a bit earlier. Called in what's either a magnificent case of hanging a lampshade or a gently caress it I just don't care anymore 'The War that Came early'.  While trying to find that image I found this:  According to this blog, the cover illustration is indeed the best part Slightly more on topic:  
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Jul 20, 2017 21:19
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What about alcohol?
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Jul 20, 2017 21:32
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Gnoman posted:
What was the given reason for the US joining the central powers in WW1? Just a gently caress-you to Britain? Does this change who wins WW1?
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Jul 20, 2017 21:34
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Class Warcraft posted:What was the given reason for the US joining the central powers in WW1? Just a gently caress-you to Britain? Does this change who wins WW1? Basically yes, and it does-the US and Germany win World War I, and as a result the US annexes Canada and Kentucky.
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Jul 20, 2017 21:36
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Ensign Expendable posted:What about alcohol? if it's from a distillery, here comes the hil'erity if it's fluid used for cleanin' you best be a leavin' if it's brewed from a torpedo, give it the ol' heve-ho
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Jul 20, 2017 21:39
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Class Warcraft posted:What was the given reason for the US joining the central powers in WW1? Just a gently caress-you to Britain? Does this change who wins WW1? The Confederacy won the War of Succession primarily because Britain and France entered the war on the Confederate side after Lee smashed McClellan and was poised to cut off Washington City. The Confederacy won the Second Mexican War (the 1881 conflict, which started because the CSA bought two states from Mexico to give themselves access the the Pacific, and the US went to war to stop them) primarily because the British entered the war on the Confederate side, invading the US from Canada, shooting up and blockading all of the major US ports, and robbing the San Fransisco Mint. Because the Confederacy had strong allies, the US decided that they needed strong allies, and began allying (and heavily imitating on a social level) the Second Reich. In this version of WWI, the Central Powers get
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Jul 20, 2017 21:52
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OK good so, it's not Lost Cause-y at all AND it recognizes how racist Wilson was. I coukd easily see a South-won series doing a world where the CSA just drops slavery on it's own and everything is just hunky dory for ex-slaves after that. Because it's liberals that think racism is real and even if it was it was the North and Reconstruction did it.
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Jul 20, 2017 22:13
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PittTheElder posted:It's definitely come up in these threads before that civil war photographers often moved the the dead about to create more compelling images, I suspect that's what we're looking at.  The not-good-enough actual view:  Fenton and his assistants dug up cannonballs from the surrounding area and put them on the road to make it look more badass. I'd be fired if I did something like that. On that note, I was looking for something in my archives from my newspaper days, and found a few Civil War reenactments:  I have an even better photo of a cannon firing, but can't find it at the moment.   
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Jul 20, 2017 22:53
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Bad Angus! Bad!
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JcDent posted:Watched Dunkirk. My girlfriend liked it, I thought Tom Hardy did stuff that would be hard to pull off in Warthunder arcade mode. Ugh. That just got demoted to rental.
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Jul 20, 2017 22:57
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those ACW reenactors are way too fat
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Jul 20, 2017 23:05
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:those ACW reenactors are way too fat Uh, they're heavy infantry.
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Jul 20, 2017 23:09
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:those ACW reenactors are way too fat was about to make this post It is particularly striking when comparing the colorized actual soldiers pictures to those of re enactors
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Jul 20, 2017 23:11
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I don't entirely understand why it's happening but it's funny. I thought I caught that the russians have invented colour film so now everything looks stupid? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Jul 20, 2017 |
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Jul 20, 2017 23:23
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bewbies posted:was about to make this post And the average age of those reinactors looks 40 or older too.
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Jul 20, 2017 23:44
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:those ACW reenactors are way too fat Well, the hobby does tend toward older people with enough money to afford the gear,. Very few reenactors are young, scrawny history majors who can justify using part of their college funds on it, after all.
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Jul 20, 2017 23:44
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Delivery McGee posted:Mathew Brady (sic) and Roger Fenton are notorious for this among modern students of photojournalism, journalistic ethics having not been invented yet -- Brady was working during the ACW, and would routinely pose bodies to make the dead men look like they'd died more dramatically, and Fenton pretty much invented was correspondence in Crimea -- the famous photo of the Light Brigade's valley of death, some months after the battle: If they were like old-school wildlife documentarians, they'd go even further. Maybe throw in some pyrotechnics to make it more exciting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHrlXY9Gd6c
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Jul 20, 2017 23:44
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OwlFancier posted:I don't entirely understand why it's happening but it's funny. The bald dude mutters a few words of German around the two minute mark and it sounds like "scheisse, Schwule" which would be "damnit, gays" so I'm going to hazard a guess at Russian gay panic humor. I speak zero Russian so this guess is probably wrong.
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Jul 21, 2017 00:17
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Nebakenezzer posted:Guys let me freely confess I think a powerful teaching tool for the 30 years war would be if something like a 30 years war Axis Powers Hetalia exited Be careful what you wish for: http://afternoon.moae.jp/lineup/753 Google Translate posted:The divine Roman empire of the 17th century which was in the middle of a fierce battle, which we later parted into two powers, later called the 30 year war. A terribly generic historic battle manga where our samurai hero saves the day by stopping a rape by cutting an axe handle in half with his katana (and then not killing the rapists, so I'm guessing this is published in a magazine targeted at teens) and then snipes the enemy commander with a Tanegashima in the second chapter. And there are siege towers and beak bascinet helmets for some reason, I think maybe the author was just falling back on "Mangaka's Guide to Medieval Europe" stereotypes for anything they didn't see on the 30YW Wiki page.  Additionally here's Anime Wallenstein getting stabbed. 
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Jul 21, 2017 01:24
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i loving hate you
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Jul 21, 2017 01:25
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that rules
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Jul 21, 2017 01:46
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Delivery McGee posted:Well, the hobby does tend toward older people with enough money to afford the gear,. Very few reenactors are young, scrawny history majors who can justify using part of their college funds on it, after all. If they weren't farb bitches they would eat like they were on campaign and get some loving exercise.
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Jul 21, 2017 01:55
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The age thing is also a criticism people level st war movies. Less 18 year old boys making GBS threads themselves before dying sudden bloody deaths, more 40 year old Hollywood stars having a moment before a glorious final stand.
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Jul 21, 2017 02:05
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zoux posted:OK good so, it's not Lost Cause-y at all AND it recognizes how racist Wilson was. Arguably Turtledove wrote that story, but it's less "just drops slavery on its own" and more "recognizes that Black people have tasted freedom and will not go back to slavery without bloodshed".
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Jul 21, 2017 02:14
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HEY GAIL posted:i loving hate you It'd be a good av for you, though
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Jul 21, 2017 02:24
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Has anyone ever written the story where the North gives up the fight in '64 or something, and then the CSA maintains slavery as brutally as it ever had, only to promptly collapse under the weight of their dysfunctional government and a European market that has developed alternate cotton supplies?
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Jul 21, 2017 03:07
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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darthbob88 posted:Arguably Turtledove wrote that story, but it's less "just drops slavery on its own" and more "recognizes that Black people have tasted freedom and will not go back to slavery without bloodshed". In that case, they also had late 20th century textbooks (the entire premise of the novel was time-traveling white supremacists, this idea being inspired by another author's complaints of anachronisms on her book cover) that blatantly told them that the future world would heap nothing but condemnation on the heads of slavery, and that their "peculiar institution" would be seen as a barbarity by their grandchildren.
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Jul 21, 2017 03:15
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Why did the Germans have such contempt for the fighting prowess or Americans and Brits during WW2?
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Jul 21, 2017 03:32
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Yaws posted:Why did the Germans have such contempt for the fighting prowess or Americans and Brits during WW2? At the outset? Racism and general fascist nationalism crap. Later? They didn't. The Germans had a healthy respect for American artillery especially.
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Jul 21, 2017 03:34
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I saw Dunkirk; tentatively it is one of the best movies I've ever seen, and also, along with Jarhead, the only film that successfully imparts the feeling of incredibly tense boredom and general helplessness you feel in combat. It isn't a movie about Dunkirk, it is a movie about half a dozen or so people who were at Dunkirk.
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Jul 21, 2017 03:40
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bewbies posted:was about to make this post The average US Army soldier in WW2 weighed 144 pounds, it's been a colossal change in American body weights in a relatively short amount of time. Obesity is obviously a huge part and is in play with many re-enactors, but it's more than just sugar and saturated fat.
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Jul 21, 2017 04:30
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gohuskies posted:The average US Army soldier in WW2 weighed 144 pounds, it's been a colossal change in American body weights in a relatively short amount of time. Obesity is obviously a huge part and is in play with many re-enactors, but it's more than just sugar and saturated fat. It's access to a steady diet rich in fats and proteins, right?
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Jul 21, 2017 04:38
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PittTheElder posted:Has anyone ever written the story where the North gives up the fight in '64 or something, and then the CSA maintains slavery as brutally as it ever had, only to promptly collapse under the weight of their dysfunctional government and a European market that has developed alternate cotton supplies? Don't think althist people are all that interested in economic arguments. GotLag posted:It's access to a steady diet rich in fats and proteins, right? I looked this up once and the New England Journal of Medicine had an article that assembled no less than ten possible reasons for why we are getting fat. Apparently it's complicated.
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Jul 21, 2017 04:49
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I don't mean fat I just mean big. My dad was born in '38 and so grew up during rationing in the UK and so only comes up to my shoulder. For why we're getting fat I think it's just cheap sugar in everything (and too much of everything).
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Jul 21, 2017 04:54
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Yaws posted:Why did the Germans have such contempt for the fighting prowess or Americans and Brits during WW2? This is based on a mix of stuff I've picked up from Antony Beevor, Orwell and Churchill: The foot soldiers in the Wehrmacht in WWII had grown up in Nazi Germany. They had all joined the Nazi Youth and spent their time doing outdoorsy activities that would later prepare them for hardship and war. They were raised on the beliefs that they were a superior race, that bravery in battle was the highest virtue and that they had a duty to fight for Germany. Britain in the 1930s almost could not have been more different. The intellectual classes thought that war was immoral. They believed patriotism was a scam and they wouldn't be duped. If they admired any country it wasn't the British Empire, but the Soviet Union. The world wasn't like today, where most people believe that liberal democracy is the best system and history is over. Many people thought that democracy's time was done, and that communism or fascism would be the future. So from the start you can see why the Germans thought they would be better fighters. And at the start of the war I think there is a some reason to believe that they were right. 1939-1940 was an almost unbroken string of disasters for the allies. First they watched passively from behind the Maginot line as the Germans ate Poland, giving up on their best chance to take the offensive. Then the Germans defeated the French and British in a matter of weeks, despite having roughly equal numbers. The British were driven out of Norway almost without a fight. Churchill was stunned at this and was seriously worried that men raised in a democracy were just soft, and wouldn't be able to go toe-to-toe with men raised from birth to fight by a totalitarian regime. Beevor mentions that psychological casualties (can't remember the term) were far more common in US/UK forces compared to German ones, so there may be something to that or maybe the Germans just treated it more harshly and sent them back to the fight. The attitude towards the US got some momentum at the start when they were defeated at the Kasserine Pass. I get the impression that in the case of Americans there was also some European prejudice that American armies were undisciplined and unprofessional, even going back to the Civil War. But again the Germans ended up learning that the early defeats were just teething pains and Americans could fight well enough. So the Germans had ideological and practical reasons to believe that their youth would be more prepared for war at the start, and that played out to some degree. But as the western allies gained more experience this advantage faded and that, combined with their material advantages, ended up being enough.
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Jul 21, 2017 05:14
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Cyrano4747 posted:The age thing is also a criticism people level st war movies. Less 18 year old boys making GBS threads themselves before dying sudden bloody deaths, more 40 year old Hollywood stars having a moment before a glorious final stand. Well, a lot of twenty-ish people in Dunkirk. Only officer types like Cillian Murphy are older.
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Jul 21, 2017 05:45
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OwlFancier posted:I don't entirely understand why it's happening but it's funny. Sort of. Seventeen Moments of Spring is an old Soviet TV show about a spy (Stirlitz, the first guy you see) in the German SD trying to find out which one of the nazi elite is trying to arrange a separate peace with the Western Allies. The original was black and white, but it was recently colourized (poorly), plus the new version was missing about 10% of the runtime, so it was rather poorly received. The video is making fun of the colourization in general, and a specific part in the show where Heinrich Müller finds Stirlitz's fingerprints on a Soviet radio, but since the film was coloured, the fingerprints no longer match. The original is on Youtube with English subtitles, if you want to watch it.
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Jul 21, 2017 05:49
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OctaviusBeaver posted:. The British were driven out of Norway almost without a fight. Random nitpick into what I think is a good post; the British weren't really driven out of Norway, not directly anyway. They weren't exactly winning, but they'd defeated the Germans in the northern sector (the important bit) for the most part, but then France happened and the British decided to bail (perhaps the sensible call? I'm intrigued by a counterfactual where Britain tries to hold on in Norway). Though at the end of the day I guess that's still easy for the Reich to spin into a big propaganda victory.
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Jul 21, 2017 06:16
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Ensign Expendable posted:Sort of. Seventeen Moments of Spring is an old Soviet TV show about a spy (Stirlitz, the first guy you see) in the German SD trying to find out which one of the nazi elite is trying to arrange a separate peace with the Western Allies. The original was black and white, but it was recently colourized (poorly), plus the new version was missing about 10% of the runtime, so it was rather poorly received. It also help that Stirlitz jokes are Russian memes. Like the line "Stirlitz had never been closer to being uncovered" is just a joke on its own.
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Jul 21, 2017 08:16
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GotLag posted:I don't mean fat I just mean big. My dad was born in '38 and so grew up during rationing in the UK and so only comes up to my shoulder. edit: i'm exactly putin's height and seven pounds lighter than him, which explains a lot about putin edit 2: scrolling past any mention of dunkirk real fast with my eyes shut over here HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 09:00 on Jul 21, 2017 |
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Jul 21, 2017 08:46
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