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Lurdiak posted:That's the issue with what I'll call Byrneian essentialism. Returning a character to their Original Roots(tm) is often more shocking and distasteful to readers than keeping them as they're commonly known, even if the progression they've had over the years papers over some distasteful things. Morrison obviously found it offensive that a character who was so evil when he was little was treated as a nuanced character who stands in for real life civil rights figures, but I'd argue it's much more offensive to people who grew up reading Claremont to say that all the nuance doesn't count because he's a terrorist and a baddie, and baddies don't get to also be heroes. Even though lots of terrorists are considered heroes in real life throughout history, because the world is very complex. Byrneian Essentialism? Care to explain the name?
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Feb 4, 2018 04:56
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Xavier did the creepy I love Jean thing more than once. Not a lot, but it was coming up again before the first “death of professor x”.
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Feb 4, 2018 05:01
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Covok posted:Byrneian Essentialism? Care to explain the name?
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Feb 4, 2018 05:08
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Lurdiak posted:That's the issue with what I'll call Byrneian essentialism. Returning a character to their Original Roots(tm) is often more shocking and distasteful to readers than keeping them as they're commonly known, even if the progression they've had over the years papers over some distasteful things. Morrison obviously found it offensive that a character who was so evil when he was little was treated as a nuanced character who stands in for real life civil rights figures, but I'd argue it's much more offensive to people who grew up reading Claremont to say that all the nuance doesn't count because he's a terrorist and a baddie, and baddies don't get to also be heroes. Even though lots of terrorists are considered heroes in real life throughout history, because the world is very complex. 1963-1981: He's pretty unambiguously a murderous would-be tyrant who wants to kill all humans 1981-1991: Chris Claremont starts developing and reforming him into the complicated Holocaust survivor that people really identify with 1991-2001: With Claremont's last X-Men story he goes back to being kind of a crazy murderous cult leader who tortures people and then apparently dies. He comes back a couple of years later and shuts down the entire planet's electricity with an EMP blast and rips Wolverine's metal out and plans to massively attack humanity before his brain gets shut down. Then his disembodied anger creates Onslaught. Then he comes out of his coma and he blackmails humanity into giving him Genosha and starts wiping out the (admittedly terrible) humans who used to run the island. Then he kidnaps and crucifies Xavier as the first step in his plan to declare war against all of humanity, at which point Wolverine apparently kills him. The story of "Magneto crucifying Xavier and declaring war on humanity only to be killed by Wolverine" is the story that directly precedes Morrison's run on X-Men, done with no input from Morrison. It's not like he created the idea of Magneto as genocidal madman, outside of the decade of Claremont's influence it was his default mode. It was the story immediately before his story. Between Claremont and Morrison there was an equal amount of time dedicated to Magneto being a murderous terrorist, though since Morrison there has been a solid fifteen years of trying to keep Magneto an anti-hero. And in terms of Byrnian essentialism, I always called it FRAMER'S INTENT. The best example of this is his brief but ridiculous run on the West Coast Avengers. Basically every plotline he did over the course of a year and a half was essentially this: - The Vision and Scarlet Witch are a married couple with children. NOT ACCORDING TO THEIR CREATORS! The Vision is going to get dismantled and all of his emotion and memories wiped by a government conspiracy. Their marriage will be dissolved. Their children will be revealed to be a demonic trick. - Scarlet Witch uses chaos magic to affect probability? And is an Avenger? NOT ACCORDING TO STAN AND JACK! She's a mutant with bad luck powers and she and her brother Quicksilver are part of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, AS THEIR CREATOR INTENDED. - Hawkeye is the leader of an Avengers team? HE'S A FUCKIN' HOTHEAD REBEL, ACCORDING TO HIS CREATORS. He'd better fly off the handle and quit the team, as his creators intended. and so on and so forth. He was mad at Steve Englehart for some reason so he negated Englehart's origin for the Vision (that Ultron had built him from the remains of Jim Hammond, the original Human Torch) by having Jim Hammond just wake up in his coffin perfectly intact and go "well whatever, Vision clearly isn't built from me! That's stupid! I'm right here!" and then offered no explanation beyond "that story from that comic Steve Englehart wrote was full of poo poo", which he determined was the true intention of the creators of the respective characters. In general the rule of thumb for anything John Byrne does is that if he's reversing someone else's story/plot point it's because only he truly can divine the most important thing, the intent of the original creators. And if he does something completely counter to the existing stories of the characters' creators (like say, having Johnny Storm and Alicia Masters hook up) it's because only he can truly divine what the creators would have wanted to do differently. It's all about as convincing as Paul Ryan (the congressman, not the FF penciller) or someone of that ilk ignoring centuries of precedent and divining exactly what the founding fathers 'would have wanted' in terms of Net Neutrality.
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Feb 4, 2018 05:29
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I admit that my knowledge of X-men isn't quite as complete as it should be for me to use Magneto as an example of essentialism/framer's intent, there.
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Feb 4, 2018 05:46
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Also to be fair, you're absolutely right that people pulled an essentialism/framers' intent on Magneto, repeatedly, post-Claremont. I had a friend as a teen who was way more plugged into the X-Men side of things who complained about how the entire period post-Claremont was a semi-annual "Magneto is back, and he's CRAZY!" that each time would sweep away all of the Claremont-era development. Because the Marvel Universe is written by committee over decades, there was a weird repeating push/pull sequence of "MAGNETO IS A CRAZY MURDERER AGAIN"/"well you know, he's a tragic anti-hero"/"NOPE, MASS MURDERER" throughout the 1990s. Since one of Morrison's "things" is that All Stories Count, looking at this artificially created bipolar sort of character, it makes sense from that perspective to decide that he's an insane mass murderer who goes through periods of introspective remorse, only to lapse back into ranting about exterminating humanity every few years, and therefore he's not a Good Guy or an Anti-Hero, he's just an equivocating psychotic monster. Really, the period of 2004-2018 where he's Not Really a Mass Murderer, Just a Traumatized Survivor Anti-Hero Hoping To Make Amends is the longest stretch of relatively consistent characterization he's ever had.
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Feb 4, 2018 05:55
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That is a totally fair argument for Evil Magneto. It's mostly that I just hate most of the 90s X-Men stuff (save for Age of Apocalypse where he's a good guy) so it's easy to ignore. I do think that human concentration camps are a step too far even for that version of Magneto, even if he's totally drugged up or whatever. EDIT: It's also super well-done even if I don't like it. All the kids being disappointed and wanting Xorn back, Magneto having an identity crisis... Good stuff.
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Feb 4, 2018 06:05
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Edge & Christian posted:Really, the period of 2004-2018 where he's Not Really a Mass Murderer, Just a Traumatized Survivor Anti-Hero Hoping To Make Amends is the longest stretch of relatively consistent characterization he's ever had.
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Feb 4, 2018 06:09
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BrianWilly posted:Probably 'cuz people got really horney for Michael Fassbender. And then the whole increased awareness of "oh hey, him being a holocaust survivor is kinda getting more and more topical these days isn't it?" SMH if you weren't horny for Ian McKellen.
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Feb 4, 2018 06:19
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Edge & Christian posted:Also to be fair, you're absolutely right that people pulled an essentialism/framers' intent on Magneto, repeatedly, post-Claremont. I had a friend as a teen who was way more plugged into the X-Men side of things who complained about how the entire period post-Claremont was a semi-annual "Magneto is back, and he's CRAZY!" that each time would sweep away all of the Claremont-era development. Because the Marvel Universe is written by committee over decades, there was a weird repeating push/pull sequence of "MAGNETO IS A CRAZY MURDERER AGAIN"/"well you know, he's a tragic anti-hero"/"NOPE, MASS MURDERER" throughout the 1990s. Since one of Morrison's "things" is that All Stories Count, looking at this artificially created bipolar sort of character, it makes sense from that perspective to decide that he's an insane mass murderer who goes through periods of introspective remorse, only to lapse back into ranting about exterminating humanity every few years, and therefore he's not a Good Guy or an Anti-Hero, he's just an equivocating psychotic monster. I think a lot of the 90s plotting was going for more ambivalence than it was capable of attaining, or I don't know, maybe just wanting to have it both ways? Hence Joseph and his amazing technicolored backstory, or the heroic Magneto from Age of Apocalypse. If I had to guess I'd hazard that the intent-- beween Claremont leaving and Fatal Attraction at least-- was to keep reiterating the position of X-Men #1-3 which was basically that he was still a guy with more or less righteous convictions but that he was put into a situation where he'd be placed in inevitable conflict with the X-Men, and also that he was surrounding himself with bad, enabling people like Fabian Cortez who would wind up pushing him towards his more extreme and violent tendencie. Except he was written by writers much worse than Claremont, so he usually came off as a psychopath or a rube. After that just a lot of half-hearted attempts at starting from a blank slate-- oh he's Joseph, oh, he isn't Joseph, oh, what you thought was his backstory was a ruse, and so on. I like to stand up for the 90s a bit because I feel like there were a lot of great comics coming out at the time, and growing up a lot of even the mediocre or lovely comics meant a lot to me, but for real the 90s X-line took from Claremont a masterclass in simmering subplots but nothing else, leading to a decade of portentous and inconsistent buildup, and few characters suffered worse from it than Magneto. I largely enjoyed Morrison's take just because it did feel like an honest reckoning with the corner the character had been written into-- tremendous and largely productive symbolic or mythological gravity, but a real sense of "how on earth did we get here and what does it even mean, please, what's the point of this" on the level of consistent character-writing.
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Feb 4, 2018 06:32
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Lol Byrne sounds like a huge rear end in a top hat
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Feb 4, 2018 07:35
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site posted:Lol Byrne sounds like a huge rear end in a top hat Like, you have no idea.
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Feb 4, 2018 07:43
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site posted:Lol Byrne sounds like a huge rear end in a top hat Where have you been the past 40 years?
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Feb 4, 2018 07:47
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site posted:Lol Byrne sounds like a huge rear end in a top hat quote:Christopher Reeve
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Feb 4, 2018 07:48
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...
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Feb 4, 2018 07:53
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I mean, how dare someone else have the audacity to be more associated with Superman than John Byrne.
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Feb 4, 2018 07:54
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Covok posted:... yyyyyyyyyyyyup. Byrne bad, you guys.
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Feb 4, 2018 07:55
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site posted:Lol Byrne sounds like a huge rear end in a top hat on Jessica Alba playing Susan Storm in the Fantastic Four movie quote:Personal prejudice: Hispanic and Latino [sic] women with blonde hair look like hookers to me, no matter how clean or “cute” they are. Somehow those skin tones that look so good with dark, dark hair just don’t work for me with lighter shades. -John Byrne, 2005
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Feb 4, 2018 08:07
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quote:ST: I really liked seeing Donna Troy in these pages. Were any plans ruined when she was returned to the pages of Wonder Woman? quote:“The one real pain in the rear end was having Donna Troy yanked out of the book because John Byrne wanted her in ‘Wonder Woman’ and wouldn’t share. Our issues were already done, and we had to go back and retrofit Donna’s departure into them, so to me it came off as rushed and half-assed. We’d spent a couple of years building the relationship between Donna and Kyle, and I felt it was really unfair to the readers who had invested themselves in it to have it end so abruptly. And, unfortunately, nothing of consequence was ever done with Donna in ‘Wonder Woman’ anyway. John Bryne is a complete poo poo who is so far up his own rear end that he's peering out his own throat. For the record the story that Bryne "Needed" Donna for? Dark Angel, where he killed her, reconstructed her from Wally Wests memories who, despite having known the woman pretty much all his life, reset her to "Girl I knew when I had a crush on her in the Teen Titans." Onmi fucked around with this message at 11:51 on Feb 4, 2018 |
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Feb 4, 2018 11:49
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Jordan7hm posted:Xavier did the creepy I love Jean thing more than once. Not a lot, but it was coming up again before the first “death of professor x”. Even in early Claremont, there's a scene where he introduces Lilandra to the X-Men and says something to Jean like, "I love her as I once thought I loved you." I suspect that in the early part of his run, Claremont probably felt obliged to try and retain that kind of link to Silver Age X-Men before he started to take things in his own direction.
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Feb 4, 2018 12:17
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Just got done reading all of Wolverine and the X-Men. Genuinely loved it, especially all the different students. Any chance Broo is in anything new? Loved this little guy  I think I'm now going to spend my time looking up other comics by Jason Aaron.
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Feb 4, 2018 15:22
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 to everything that got posted byrne is a monster
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Feb 4, 2018 17:18
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Guavatin posted:Just got done reading all of Wolverine and the X-Men. Genuinely loved it, especially all the different students. Broo shows up from time to time but he's strictly cameos these days. He is still around in the X-Mansion at least.
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Feb 4, 2018 17:19
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Didn't Broo get reverted to a savage state?
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Feb 4, 2018 17:22
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rantmo posted:Broo shows up from time to time but he's strictly cameos these days. He is still around in the X-Mansion at least. That's awesome to hear! AllNewJonasSalk posted:Didn't Broo get reverted to a savage state? Again? I genuinely hope not, the whole affair with him being a normal brood wasn't as good as him normally. So I've got a question. Is it a good idea to stick with certain writers per comics? I'm thinking of going full Jason Aaron (currently reading his hulk run) and I'm loving it. There're a few writers where I thought the writing was pretty bad, so I'm definitely considering just reading comics from certain people. Is this a good idea? I've read a bunch of marvel comics but still feel like such a novice.
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Feb 4, 2018 17:48
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AllNewJonasSalk posted:Didn't Broo get reverted to a savage state? If I remember correctly, he was that way for a while due to an injury, but the last time he made a cameo, he'd recovered. I want to say it was in an issue of AVX?
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Feb 4, 2018 17:53
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I think it’s a good approach if you have limited time or funds. For example, from current Marvel (where funds are a limiting factor because floppies are expensive) I’m not buying anything. I’ll be picking up Exiles when it starts because I hear Saladin is a good writer and I like what if type stories. If you just want to get caught up on the marvel universe though, you may want to branch out beyond a single or couple authors. Unless your faves are Bendis or Hickman. They drove a lot of major plot lines from the last decade.
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Feb 4, 2018 17:54
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Guavatin posted:Just got done reading all of Wolverine and the X-Men. Genuinely loved it, especially all the different students. Guavatin posted:So I've got a question. Is it a good idea to stick with certain writers per comics? I'm thinking of going full Jason Aaron (currently reading his hulk run) and I'm loving it.
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Feb 4, 2018 18:00
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I'd say a mix of both. Follow the writers you do know and like but if a book sounds interesting and it's from a writer you don't recognize, pick it up anyways and give it a shot, you might end up enjoying it and finding a new writer to follow. Just sticking to the five guys you know sounds like a quick way to get stuck in a rut and never expand your reading imo
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Feb 4, 2018 18:05
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Yea I certianly do a mix of following characters I like and books I've heard good word of mouth. I'll always buy a Captain Marvel comic, the core Avengers and X-men books, but outside of that, I'd go with what i hear is good. I'd have never picked up Fractions Hawkeye if I had not heard from BSS and others how amazing it was. I honestly never really followed writers or artists before.
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Feb 4, 2018 18:22
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Edge & Christian posted:Also to be fair, you're absolutely right that people pulled an essentialism/framers' intent on Magneto, repeatedly, post-Claremont. I had a friend as a teen who was way more plugged into the X-Men side of things who complained about how the entire period post-Claremont was a semi-annual "Magneto is back, and he's CRAZY!" that each time would sweep away all of the Claremont-era development. Because the Marvel Universe is written by committee over decades, there was a weird repeating push/pull sequence of "MAGNETO IS A CRAZY MURDERER AGAIN"/"well you know, he's a tragic anti-hero"/"NOPE, MASS MURDERER" throughout the 1990s. Since one of Morrison's "things" is that All Stories Count, looking at this artificially created bipolar sort of character, it makes sense from that perspective to decide that he's an insane mass murderer who goes through periods of introspective remorse, only to lapse back into ranting about exterminating humanity every few years, and therefore he's not a Good Guy or an Anti-Hero, he's just an equivocating psychotic monster. Of course Magneto is bipolar, he is the "Master of Magnetism" after all.
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Feb 4, 2018 18:59
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Feb 4, 2018 19:10
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MH Knights posted:Of course Magneto is bipolar, he is the "Master of Magnetism" after all. 
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Feb 4, 2018 19:15
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better or worse than his old magnetic personality thing
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Feb 4, 2018 19:19
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Is there a running tab of how many people Magneto has killed?
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Feb 4, 2018 19:25
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like all of the magnetos or just the main one ultimate mags would jump the total up a lot
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Feb 4, 2018 19:27
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lol rip rhyno hating white people is racism cuz dumbass AI mod doesnt understand the concept of racism
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Feb 4, 2018 19:39
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Guavatin posted:So I've got a question. Is it a good idea to stick with certain writers per comics? I'm thinking of going full Jason Aaron (currently reading his hulk run) and I'm loving it. Yes, but don't be afraid to check out a new writers take on a character. Maybe do some research to see what people think before investing any cash though. I haven't read Aaron's Hulk, but I recall hearing it's on the low end when it comes to his usual quality. I think you'd really love Astonishing Spider-Man and Wolverine because it's fun like WatXM, and Thor: God of Thunder because everyone enjoys that. Jason Aaron has a really good track record, so go wild.
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Feb 4, 2018 20:11
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site posted:lol rip rhyno hating white people is racism cuz dumbass AI mod doesnt understand the concept of racism I was about to make a similar comment. White fragility knows no bounds. Ironically, if that picture he posted was anything to go off of, I'm pretty sure Rhyno is white. But, well I agree with you, it's against the rules to talk about drama from other forums. So, anyone else just relieved to hear that Stan Lee is okay? I was really worried when I heard he was in the hospital.
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Feb 4, 2018 20:21
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Covok posted:I was about to make a similar comment. White fragility knows no bounds. Ironically, if that picture he posted was anything to go off of, I'm pretty sure Rhyno is white. Good to hear he's doing well. Everytime I see him in a film I'm amazed he isn't dead.
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Feb 4, 2018 21:43
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