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I think it also helps that minus Ant-Man, most of the Marvel films have had untroubled productions
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Nov 18, 2017 03:31
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X-O posted:I know this is just going to start another argument but this needs to be said. This poor opening weekend that it's shaping up to have wasn't a result of a Rotten Tomato score. It wasn't a result of Wonder Woman of course, which is looking more like an anomaly than ever now,. It wasn't a result of bland uninteresting marketing or anything like that. Whether people want to believe it or not this opening weekend was a direct result of Batman v. Superman poisoning the well for the wider general audience. That movie dropped like a stone after opening weekend and people remember their experience and the negative buzz. I know some people around here like to refer to it as an "interesting failure" at worst but the bottom line is that even if Justice League is better, and I'm not sure if most people will see it that way, the audience had already made up their minds not to see this movie because that one left a bad taste in their mouths. I think you're probably right, but I can't help but think that a huge factor is rushing straight for JL without establishing the other characters first. Say what you want about Marvel being formulaic, but the formula sure as poo poo worked for Avengers because everyone knew the characters going in (aside from Hawkeye who was not only introduced in one of the least-liked Phase 1 movies, but didn't have a big part in it either like Widow got in IM2). You can't build hype for Aquaman or Cyborg when your audience doesn't really know them or their deal going in. So Justice League starts with a Batman that not that many people even liked, Wonder Woman, a dead Superman, and the promise that there'll be some new guys and they'll be totally cool we swear. Oh yeah and Avengers had a villain people knew from previous films too, as opposed to... a guy no one knows. Maybe DC/WB had so much faith that their characters were more recognizable to the public (and I guess maaayyybe Aquaman is? but not in a good way) that they didn't need to build interest in other characters, but they were clearly wrong. Really though I can't figure out whether DC is trying to do Justice League first before movies for Aquaman or Cyborg is because they're trying to prove that DC  or whether it was totally just a run for the money where they figured just the promise of any superhero team with Batman would get asses in seats gently caress who's on the team who cares.Ugly In The Morning posted:Seriously. They got Shane Black to do Iron Man 3, and he had done a very specific kind of movie with RDJ, and in general, and he nailed putting the character arc on the path they wanted for Avengers 2 and Cap 3. It's really more thought and character than you'd expect from a giant franchise, and they put out as many films in a year as the DCCU has ever. Counter: no. If anything he put the character arc on the complete opposite of the path they wanted for AoU and Cap 3. He realized his building of more and more suits stemmed from paranoia/PTSD from his mini space journey at the end of Avengers, swore off being Iron Man, blew up his suits, got his heart fixed, and rode off into the sunset with Pepper. So it was really awkward when suddenly he's back with the Avengers and has even more suits! And he wants to build an armor for the world! TwoPair fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Nov 18, 2017 |
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Nov 18, 2017 03:34
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muscles like this! posted:The studio behind Mission Impossible said he couldn't shave it. They weren't interested in playing ball because he was supposed to be filming their movie instead of Justice League. Ahaha is that the stinger? They bring the league together to fight some Fourth World guys and the stinger to draw you into their next big adventure is loving Deathstroke?
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Nov 18, 2017 03:34
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TwoPair posted:Maybe DC/WB had so much faith that their characters were more recognizable to the public (and I guess maaayyybe Aquaman is? but not in a good way) that they didn't need to build interest in other characters, but they were clearly wrong. Zack Snyder's reaction to Thor and Ant-Man would seem to imply this being the case. Both times he's on record as saying something like, "Wow, they gave that guy a movie? But that's no one! Superman's way better known than that guy!"
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Nov 18, 2017 03:41
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Ugly In The Morning posted:I went and rewatched Wonder Woman recently and while it was a pretty good movie, I feel like a lot of the hype had to do with it being the first D.C. Movie that wasn't a complete dumpster fire. It was good, but the "holy poo poo, wow!" reaction feels a little oversold in retrospect. I agree, and while I'm sure this will be taken the wrong way, I also think it benefited hype-wise from being the first female-led superhero film that wasn't trash. It's a good, fun, competently made superhero film that shits the bed in the third act. Miles above the first three DCEU films by virtue of having two good acts and a compelling, likable protagonist, and probably somewhere above the median MCU film in quality, but I don't really get treating it as some all-time masterpiece of the genre.
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Nov 18, 2017 03:43
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Retro Futurist posted:Ahaha is that the stinger? They bring the league together to fight some Fourth World guys and the stinger to draw you into their next big adventure is loving Deathstroke? According to the spoiler I just read it's even dumber than that. He's with Lex Luthor, yeah, that Lex Luthor
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Nov 18, 2017 03:44
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Barry Convex posted:I agree, and while I'm sure this will be taken the wrong way, I also think it benefited hype-wise from being the first female-led superhero film that wasn't trash. There was only one "all time masterpiece of the genre" or whatever similar designation you want to use that came out this year. And it wasn't made by Marvel Studios or DC.
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Nov 18, 2017 03:47
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Retro Futurist posted:Ahaha is that the stinger? They bring the league together to fight some Fourth World guys and the stinger to draw you into their next big adventure is loving Deathstroke? It was Luthor escaping from prison and Joe Manganiello as Deathstroke showing up at his yacht. Luthor then says that if the good guys are teaming up so should they. Manganiello takes off his helmet and he has the worst looking bleached hair.
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Nov 18, 2017 03:47
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It is kind of weird that it feels like freaking Iron Man has a bigger cultural footprint right now than Superman.
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Nov 18, 2017 03:47
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TFRazorsaw posted:It is kind of weird that it feels like freaking Iron Man has a bigger cultural footprint right now than Superman. And that drives some people crazy.
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Nov 18, 2017 03:48
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Phylodox posted:And that drives some people crazy. I wouldn't say it drives me crazy, but it greatly disappoints me because I really love Superman. Way more than Iron Man.
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Nov 18, 2017 03:50
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X-O posted:I wouldn't say it drives me crazy, but it greatly disappoints me because I really love Superman. Way more than Iron Man. I mean less the idea that Iron Man is more popular than Superman specifically than the idea that a capitalist arms manufacturer is a much loved hero.
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Nov 18, 2017 03:53
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X-O posted:There was only one "all time masterpiece of the genre" or whatever similar designation you want to use that came out this year. And it wasn't made by Marvel Studios or DC. I didn't realize Power Rangers had such passionate fans!
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Nov 18, 2017 03:54
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Just got back from Justice League. I enjoyed it, wasn't amazing. I can't speak to the way Steppenwolf was done, I've mentioned in other threads that I'm not terribly familiar with the more cosmic stuff, but I felt like he worked fine. I was hyped as gently caress to see a loving Green Lantern in the flashback scene. Also I expected Deathstroke to be near the beginning during the setup, and had completely forgotten about him by the time the post-credits scene showed up, so that was a nice surprise.
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Nov 18, 2017 03:55
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Phylodox posted:Why didn’t he just shave his moustache and have make-up apply a false one for his work on Mission Impossible? I mean, it would have been moot, since filming on MI was delayed, anyways, but you’d think a fake ‘stache would be a lot cheaper than CG depilation. It's a damning indictment of Justice League that Cavill had the choice to shave a stache for JL or keep it for a M:I sequel and went with keeping it.
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Nov 18, 2017 03:56
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X-O posted:There was only one "all time masterpiece of the genre" or whatever similar designation you want to use that came out this year. And it wasn't made by Marvel Studios or DC. Dude Logan has among the worst final ten minutes I've seen of any film ever, to the point where I was concerned I somehow had been duped or something for the previous 90. Like holy poo poo once they get to the final fight does the bottom of that movie completely fall out, and its good that the final shot is as powerful as it is (even if it is super obvious) because boy was the end of the movie a trainwreck otherwise.
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Nov 18, 2017 03:57
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Phylodox posted:Zack Snyder's reaction to Thor and Ant-Man would seem to imply this being the case. Both times he's on record as saying something like, "Wow, they gave that guy a movie? But that's no one! Superman's way better known than that guy!" Hey let's take some comments out of context to take a pot shot at Snyder. Re: Ant-Man, Zack was responding to a comment made by Steven Spielberg where he said "superhero movies will go the way of the western eventually" and Snyder agreed with that sentiment a bit. But Snyder also said he felt like Superman and Batman are characters who are transcendent of the superhero genre, unlike say Ant-Man. I mean, poo poo, even Marvel made fun of Ant-Man in its own universe in Civil War. From what I remember, the Thor comment was made during Man of Steel's production, where Snyder talked about how Superman hasn't had a successful film for some time, and it was mostly a comment made in jest, i.e., as if it's not right and the world balance is out of whack now that Thor's getting a movie, but there's no Superman movie. Something to that effect.
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Nov 18, 2017 03:59
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So does the box office for Justice League basically mean this is another Wonder Woman movie where adding three of the biggest superheroes of all time (plus Cyborg) had no positive incremental effect?
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Nov 18, 2017 06:06
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Lobok posted:So does the box office for Justice League basically mean this is another Wonder Woman movie where adding three of the biggest superheroes of all time (plus Cyborg) had no positive incremental effect? Wonder Woman was a success, so no.
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Nov 18, 2017 06:16
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X-O posted:There was only one "all time masterpiece of the genre" or whatever similar designation you want to use that came out this year. And it wasn't made by Marvel Studios or DC. Get Out was pretty good
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Nov 18, 2017 06:25
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I liked it. My buddy and I came to the same conclusion that giving it any sort of analysis will crumble that, so I'm just not gonna do it. Other people will do it for me and I just won't fight it. I did like it. I do NOT like Cavill as Superman though. Holy poo poo did I hate every scene he was in. I hated the opening. I hated Kansas. I hated him beating up the entire rest of the team. I hate the way he shows up throwing rapid fire quips at everything during the climax, because literally nothing there is a threat to him. The red skies final battle was at least pretending to have stakes until he showed up. Then he just starts treating everything like a hilarious joke. It was a weird tone shift like when they threw in the "I work with children" line even though Steppenwolf was still up and fighting. Why are you guys quipping? The fight isn't over! I will say though, the line "Never mind, I wish I was dead" cracked me up good. So I have to conclude that Cavill is simply directed incredibly poorly. That one line destroyed what I wanted to say, which is that he has no charisma. Surprisingly, right above Superman is Aquaman. He was like a big bucket of (very beautiful) nothing. The only scene of his that elicited any kind of response was when Diana sneak-lasso'd him. Other than that, he was just there. Cyborg was a surprise delight. I'm ok to see him more. Probably not on his own, but that's not a bad thing necessarily. The Flash was about 60/40 funny/horrible. I'll give him a pass and I went in wanting to hate him, so that's double points. Of course Batfleck and Gal were good again. I'm a fan of their performances. I marked hard for Green Lantern. Good call. The CGI was incredibly terrible. Like I laughed my rear end off when Superman started fighting Steppenwolf. Bad call. Also why did Darkseid come down solely to an offhand mention? Isn't he meant to be the next big deal? No? We're doing the awful Luthor and Deathstroke? Fine. So I say you go see it. It's a good popcorn flick.
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Nov 18, 2017 06:50
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teagone posted:Unconfirmed sources on twitter say that Snyder shot only 3 scenes with Henry: the Heroes Park fight, the scene in the cornfield with Lois, and a scene with Affleck near the end of the film. That’s scenes Snyder shot that ended up in the theatrical cut, not scenes he shot, period. Superman was always going to have a major role in the film. The main leaker for this stuff, assuming it’s the ResetEra guy and assuming he’s telling the truth, has said that he only came on board well into post-production. So if legit, he only knows about scenes that made it or almost made it into the theatrical cut, not Snyder scenes that were cut earlier in the process.
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Nov 18, 2017 07:08
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Rough Lobster posted:It's a damning indictment of Justice League that Cavill had the choice to shave a stache for JL or keep it for a M:I sequel and went with keeping it. He didn't have a choice. He had a no shave clause that reshoots for justice league took place during. The reshoots occurred far later than they would have been expected, his work was supposed to be done.
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Nov 18, 2017 07:44
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Justice League is a hilarious train wreck. Batman V Superman was terrible, but at least I can see what it was trying to do, but with Justice League it felt like they put the original cut of it into a telepod but UH OH someone left their blu-ray of the Avengers in there and therefore we can get this monster of a film, that is literally falling to pieces as it plays through.
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Nov 18, 2017 08:43
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X-O posted:I wouldn't say it drives me crazy, but it greatly disappoints me because I really love Superman. Way more than Iron Man. It makes me sad that Batman vs Superman wasn't the best super hero movie ever. Remember how hyped everyone was after seeing I Am Legend? That logo had me grabbed by the imagination for years.
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Nov 18, 2017 08:47
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93,5 million ! http://deadline.com/2017/11/justice-league-opening-weekend-box-office-lower-thor-ragnarok-wonder-the-star-1202211094/
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Nov 18, 2017 09:02
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TwoPair posted:I think you're probably right, but I can't help but think that a huge factor is rushing straight for JL without establishing the other characters first. Say what you want about Marvel being formulaic, but the formula sure as poo poo worked for Avengers because everyone knew the characters going in (aside from Hawkeye who was not only introduced in one of the least-liked Phase 1 movies, but didn't have a big part in it either like Widow got in IM2). You can't build hype for Aquaman or Cyborg when your audience doesn't really know them or their deal going in. So Justice League starts with a Batman that not that many people even liked, Wonder Woman, a dead Superman, and the promise that there'll be some new guys and they'll be totally cool we swear. Oh yeah and Avengers had a villain people knew from previous films too, as opposed to... a guy no one knows. Maybe DC/WB had so much faith that their characters were more recognizable to the public (and I guess maaayyybe Aquaman is? but not in a good way) that they didn't need to build interest in other characters, but they were clearly wrong. Nah, I don't think this sentiment really holds up. Avengers clearly saw substantial benefit by being proceeded by well-received films, and it's probably a lot easier to do Avengers numbers if you've got that going for you, but you absolutely don't need it to have a hugely commercially successful film- there are all sorts of successful ensemble movies demonstrating otherwise, and in a world where a Justice League film was not preceded by anything (or just, say, MoS) it's extremely easy to envision it doing spectacularly. You can see this pretty clearly if you just look at BvS- all people really had to go on was a Superman movie that many were ambivalent about, but it still was widely anticipated and had a hugely successful opening weekend (which might have been even more successful if audiences had liked it), while introducing most of the "important" Justice League characters. If it had actually been well-received there's very little reason to think that, while it might not have quite done Avengers numbers, it couldn't have made substantially more than it ultimately did and gotten the DC cinematic universe off to a great start by giving subsequent movies featuring its characters a positive association.
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Nov 18, 2017 09:03
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I still find it hilarious I live in a world where Thor 3 will end up being more successful than a Justice League movie in all probability. Strange days.
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Nov 18, 2017 09:28
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FlamingLiberal posted:I think it also helps that minus Ant-Man, most of the Marvel films have had untroubled productions Thor 2 (messily) changed directors during pre-production too.
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Nov 18, 2017 10:07
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CinemaScore for Justice League is B+ so the same as Suicide Squad, but better than BvS which got a B. I saw the film last night, and I enjoyed it just as much as Thor 3. Both are good comic book movies. JL's third act is wonky as hell though, and I didn't like Cavill's Superman during the last big fight at all. He came of like a parody of Superman to me.
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Nov 18, 2017 10:39
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teagone posted:Both are good comic book movies Uhhhhhh no. Justice League is really bad and nowhere even close to as well put together as Thor 3. It 100% is not good. You may like it but it doesn't even approach the realm of good.
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Nov 18, 2017 10:50
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BlackJosh posted:Uhhhhhh no. Justice League is really bad and nowhere even close to as well put together as Thor 3. It 100% is not good. You may like it but it doesn't even approach the realm of good. Bums me out you can't see what I managed to enjoy about JL and experience the same, but everyone's entitled to their opinion  I don't think Thor 3 is nearly as good as everyone has made it out to be by comparison, but that's the thing about opinions. They can be different![edit] Ignoring RT's critic meter, it seems like audiences liked JL just as much as Thor 3. JL is currently standing on an 86% audience score at ~93k user votes, and Thor 3 is at 89% with ~74.5k user votes, both with the same 4.3/5 average score rating. That rating for JL might go up or down in the coming weeks, but for the moment it appears JL is being well received by moviegoers despite the divide among critics. I don't care for critic ratings personally. The only reviews from critics I find any worth in are the ones from Red Letter Media because I find them entertaining and funny. And I sure as poo poo know they're going to tear JL a new rear end in a top hat lol. One of them might like it though. Looking forward to their review for it. [edit 2] Just saw this though: lomzus posted:93,5 million ! And dang, that sucks 
teagone fucked around with this message at 11:20 on Nov 18, 2017 |
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Nov 18, 2017 10:59
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Might want to think about that vote total for a second. If JL has been out for one day and has 20K more votes than a movie that’s on its third weekend then there might just be some fuckery going on with those vote totals. Like maybe a bunch of people who have not seen the movie trying to inflate numbers. Doesn’t that seem a bit fishy to you? Also maybe use Cinemascore for gauging that rather than an easily manipulated online poll on a site that has been the target of multiple wacky Change.org petitions dedicated to trying to bring it down over the supposed treatment of this franchise. X-O fucked around with this message at 11:33 on Nov 18, 2017 |
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Nov 18, 2017 11:28
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X-O posted:Might want to think about that vote total for a second. If JL has been out for one day and has 20K more votes than a movie that’s on its third weekend then there might just be some fuckery going on with those vote totals. Like maybe a bunch of people who have not seen the movie trying to inflate numbers. Doesn’t that seem a bit fishy to you? The conspiracy theorist in me says sure. Those people trying to inflate the numbers will probably see the movie eventually and give JL an absurd 5/5 rating again as well so  I was just using the score as an example to show that people are enjoying the film. The Deadline article uses CinemaScores and PostTrak percentages, which are better methods to determine how much audiences are feeling JL.
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Nov 18, 2017 11:34
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X-O posted:Also maybe use Cinemascore for gauging that rather than an easily manipulated online poll on a site that has been the target of multiple wacky Change.org petitions dedicated to trying to bring it down over the supposed treatment of this franchise. I already did: teagone posted:CinemaScore for Justice League is B+ so the same as Suicide Squad, but better than BvS which got a B. I saw the film last night, and I enjoyed it just as much as Thor 3. Both are good comic book movies. JL's third act is wonky as hell though, and I didn't like Cavill's Superman during the last big fight at all. He came of like a parody of Superman to me. and mentioned it again above this post during your edit.
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Nov 18, 2017 11:38
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Why is it the DCEU and not the DCCU? Is it just because of the MCU and if Marvel does things one way, DC will always do the opposite?
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Nov 18, 2017 12:12
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If Justice League gets 93.5M that's still much more than it deserves. It should count its blessings that it even gets as much acclaim as it does now, because there are hundreds of films out there with a lot more care, talent, and polish put into them that will never have the reach as this unwieldy hunk of celluloid. Like, I'm sorry, it's sad that Snyder didn't get to finish this film and that another, completely clashing director had to come cobble together some kind of product out of the motley he was left with, but the fact is that this film looks exactly like a film that the original director didn't finish and had to be cobbled together out of motley parts by a completely clashing director. I mean, points for effort and everything...but you don't actually get points for effort when you're trying to sell movie tickets for 10-to-20 dollars a seat. It is a botched product and watches like one, no different from any Green Lantern or Catwoman out there.
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Nov 18, 2017 12:16
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I've been thinking. If MoS had been a hopeful, optimistic, non suicidal Jonathan Kent movie, where Superman was...Superman. More Donner-like at the end of the movie. Superman cult starts. Batman doesn't trust the alien, Luthor quietly moves pieces around so they fight, BvS. Brief fight, they realize they've been duped. Luthor releases Doomsday to effect his escape. Wonder woman out of nowhere, they fight, Superman dies (in space). Whole world believably in mourning. Wonder Woman proceeds as it did. Haven't seen JL yet, will probably wait for drive-in or bluray. Anyway bad villain comes with parademons and poo poo. Team gathering. They lose badly at first, but manage to unmask the badguy. Oh poo poo, it's Superman. They do extra good teamwork, beat him, drive back the parademons. Amazon+/-Atlantean magic or tech makes him become who he was. Bam. Movie ends with the knowledge that Darkseid is coming, and no one trusts Superman anymore. Tldr; If they had done everything differently things would be different.
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Nov 18, 2017 12:32
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teagone posted:[edit] Ignoring RT's critic meter, it seems like audiences liked JL just as much as Thor 3. JL is currently standing on an 86% audience score at ~93k user votes, and Thor 3 is at 89% with ~74.5k user votes, both with the same 4.3/5 average score rating. That rating for JL might go up or down in the coming weeks, but for the moment it appears JL is being well received by moviegoers despite the divide among critics. I don't care for critic ratings personally. Like with video games (or any nerd culture stuff), user scores are meaningless. That's where fanboys battle it out and brigading happens. "RT is totally Anti-DC! Let's show them!" just like Battlefront 2 is currently on 0.9/10 in Metacritic in User Scores, because "Lootboxes r bad".
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Nov 18, 2017 13:21
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teagone posted:The conspiracy theorist in me says sure. Those people trying to inflate the numbers will probably see the movie eventually and give JL an absurd 5/5 rating again as well so You do realize companies hire other companies to inflate positive or negative numbers on these vote sites?
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Nov 18, 2017 14:27
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