|
icantfindaname posted:Not a map, but close enough Man, if it wasn't for those Dark Ages, Leif Erikson would've been the first man on the Moon.
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 03:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 22:54 |
|
|
icantfindaname posted:Not a map, but close enough 
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 03:40
|
|
|
MeinPanzer posted:That blob in Xinjiang is referring to Uyghurs, who (like many Central Asian peoples, Mongolians includes) include the occasional blond and redhead. Yeah, the Uyghurs are a Turkic people and only became part of China relatively recently(early-mid 1800s off the top of my head?). It would probably be a slightly lighter shade too if Xinjiang hadn't been flooded by Han Chinese people as part of government efforts to sinicize the region.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 04:34
|
|
|
A Fancy 400 lbs posted:Yeah, the Uyghurs are a Turkic people and only became part of China relatively recently(early-mid 1800s off the top of my head?). It would probably be a slightly lighter shade too if Xinjiang hadn't been flooded by Han Chinese people as part of government efforts to sinicize the region. You're thinking of Dzungaria to the south, in the Tarim basin, which was conquered and administratively unified with Xinjiang by the Qing, depopulated by genocide, and then resettled by a handful of different ethnicities including Uyghurs, Hui, and Han. Xinjiang has more or less been "a part of China" for almost 1,900 years since the Han dynasty established a protectorate there. It, like many other parts of China, has passed between a multitude of states since then, of course. This is why the Tang state looked so funky, Xinjiang was connected to the rest of China by a series of forts and roads sandwiched between the northern steppe and Tibet to the south:  The mass immigration to Xinjiang proper by Han chinese on the other hand is a recent phenomenon, starting in the 50's.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 04:50
|
|
|
Falukorv posted:Speaking of mousy, in Swedish, the colloquial term for that shade is "Råttfärgat" (rat-colored). Falukorv posted:Speaking as a Swede, what you describe about Norway might as well describe what i see over here . That 65% blonde figure on the map seems accurate if you include lightbrown hair. Lycus posted:Man, if it wasn't for those Dark Ages, Leif Erikson would've been the first man on the Moon.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 05:27
|
|
|
icantfindaname posted:Not a map, but close enough
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 05:28
|
|
|
icantfindaname posted:Not a map, but close enough That's my favorite politically loaded chart because it's like "nah what's the Muslim world and Asia?"
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 05:32
|
|
|
Ormi posted:Xinjiang has more or less been "a part of China" for almost 1,900 years since the Han dynasty established a protectorate there. It, like many other parts of China, has passed between a multitude of states since then, of course. That's sort of like claiming that because Rome controlled Iraq for a while 1900 years ago that Iraq has always been a rightful part of modern Italy Spoeank posted:That's my favorite politically loaded chart because it's like "nah what's the Muslim world and Asia?" They're right here, you just need the extended version of the chart icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 06:09 on Apr 14, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 06:06
|
|
|
When does the "modern science" period start?
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 06:12
|
|
|
Fojar38 posted:When does the "modern science" period start?
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 06:13
|
|
|
Meme Emulator posted:Are you going to tell me he ISNT blond? I have a doctorate in anime genetics. Ask me about recessive pink-haired genes.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 06:55
|
|
|
e: sorry for double post, I don't know how to merge posts on the Awful appSpoeank posted:That's my favorite politically loaded chart because it's like "nah what's the Muslim world and Asia?" It's also total bullshit because you could just as easily claim that modernity as we know it could only have arisen in a society influenced by Christian philosophy/theology, if only because it used said philosophy as a reference and springboard. In fact, when the Scientific Revolution first took off, atheism was almost non-existent. Read almost any scientific treatise from the seventeenth or eighteenth centuries, and the author will regularly be praising God throughout the text. It wasn't until the late eighteenth century that you had a handful of hardcore (and initially widely despised) mainly French trolls openly questioning religion.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 07:12
|
|
|
icantfindaname posted:That's sort of like claiming that because Rome controlled Iraq for a while 1900 years ago that Iraq has always been a rightful part of modern Italy Haha oh yeah dude, I don't mean to get into any kind of debate about self-determination or anything. But "China" and "Chinese" are extremely fluid descriptors when you're discussing the history of the region. Xinjiang has been sinicized to some degree for a long time, and ruled by many successive dynasties of people who spoke Chinese officially, usually Mongols or Han.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 07:18
|
|
|
I've often found that people who unironically agree with the Dark Ages graph have a really hard time actually naming technologies which were lost as a result of the collapse of Rome.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 09:02
|
|
|
Reveilled posted:I've often found that people who unironically agree with the Dark Ages graph have a really hard time actually naming technologies which were lost as a result of the collapse of Rome. Concrete?
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 09:39
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:
Copenhagen, mostly. Haven't been there for many years so can't actually say for sure, my memory of it might have become more distorted with time. I just remember noticing that there was more blonde people there than i was used to in my corner of Sweden. Especially of the really lightblonde variety. Maybe it isn't as prevalent as i remember, but it did stick out to me because it is kind of unusual in my neck of the woods. Also, i shouldn't generalize too much about Sweden either, cause it can vary within the country as well. A lot more brown-eyed Swedes where i live now than where i grew up.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 09:56
|
|
|
 Montenegro is an aggressive country that cannot co-exist with a peaceful world.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 11:47
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:We really don't like that color, do we? IDK if there's other words for it in Finnish, but I say "country road grey". Which isn't too bad I guess.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 12:09
|
|
|
Ras Het posted:IDK if there's other words for it in Finnish, but I say "country road grey". Which isn't too bad I guess. A nicer name for that particular haircolor is actually "cendré" 
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 12:14
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:We really don't like that color, do we? In Czech it would be called "pochcaná sláma" - "straw drenched with piss"
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 12:27
|
|
|
If we're talking hair i have opinions. Blondes may have nice hair, but their brows and pubes are an ugly mismatching grey color. Freaks! Hair should be the same color all over, thanks.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 12:29
|
|
|
Falukorv posted:Copenhagen, mostly. Haven't been there for many years so can't actually say for sure, my memory of it might have become more distorted with time. I just remember noticing that there was more blonde people there than i was used to in my corner of Sweden. Especially of the really lightblonde variety. Maybe it isn't as prevalent as i remember, but it did stick out to me because it is kind of unusual in my neck of the woods. steinrokkan posted:In Czech it would be called "pochcaná sláma" - "straw drenched with piss" sparatuvs posted:
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 14:55
|
|
|
I think my favourite part of the montenegro map is that it's own capital wasn't part of montenegro.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 15:03
|
|
|
a pipe smoking dog posted:I think my favourite part of the montenegro map is that it's own capital wasn't part of montenegro. The Kingdom of Italy didn't get Rome until a few years after it's founding.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 15:52
|
|
|
Gray hair in English always refers to age related grayness. I'm not sure if this is just an americanism but you sometimes hear 'dishwater blonde' which isn't terribly complimentary I suppose.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 15:57
|
|
|
icantfindaname posted:Not a map, but close enough The fun thing about the whole "CHRISTIAN DARK AGES" stupidity is that the Middle Ages actually saw significant technological and scientific advancement, such as the establishment of the first universities, new distillation techniques that paved the way towards modern chemistry, signficiant agricultural development such as three field rotation, advanced metallurgy, medicine (especially in the Islamic world, the knowledge of which also spread to Christian Europe, the Ancient Romans and Greeks may have had more advanced surgery though), optics, and I could go on. It's even likely (maybe dependant on how you look at it) that the opposite is true and that the so-called "dark ages" saw more technological developments and innovation than the entire lifetime of the Hellenistic and Roman empires. e: Also, I found an explanation of the graph. Don't think I'm going to bother reading it though. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Apr 14, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 16:18
|
|
|
Randarkman posted:The fun thing about the whole "CHRISTIAN DARK AGES" stupidity is that the Middle Ages actually saw significant technological and scientific advancement, such as the establishment of the first universities, new distillation techniques that paved the way towards modern chemistry, signficiant agricultural development such as three field rotation, advanced metallurgy, medicine (especially in the Islamic world, the knowledge of which also spread to Christian Europe, the Ancient Romans and Greeks may have had more advanced surgery though), optics, and I could go on. Yeah pretty much. It's the whole reason historians want us to stop using the term "dark ages" because they imply so much more than was originally intended, namely that historical records that survived to "current" times became much spottier.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 16:27
|
|
|
Isn't it generally agreed now that the roman empire was a period of economic and scientific stagnation?
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 16:28
|
|
|
a pipe smoking dog posted:Isn't it generally agreed now that the roman empire was a period of economic and scientific stagnation? That probably applies to most of China's history as well. No ruler likes new innovative ideas that would make lots of people unemployed and cause unrest.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 16:35
|
|
|
a pipe smoking dog posted:Isn't it generally agreed now that the roman empire was a period of economic and scientific stagnation? Well there wasn't all that much demand for labor saving devices in the heart of the empire, what with all the cheap slaves. But it's painting with too broad a brush to say all of the empire period was stagnation. Makes more sense to use that for after the crisis of the Third Century, when everything went to poo poo and then struggled along for another couple hundred years in the west. But the East at the same time fully recovered and wasn't appreciably behind the rest of Europe in technology and the like up until they got wiped out by the Turks.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 16:37
|
|
|
Riso posted:That probably applies to most of China's history as well. No ruler likes new innovative ideas that would make lots of people unemployed and cause unrest. The Roman Empire throughout its history was plagued by mass unemployment and social unrest though, slavery being a huge part in this as rich people bought up all the land and had access to abundant slaves (because of all the conquests) which left rural poor with no land of their own and little opportunity to work and provide for themselves and their families, which prompted more and more immigration into the cities were there weren't really a whole lot more jobs, but occasionally the rulers would treat the symptoms by just handing out food and money to keep the mob from murdering everybody in a hunger-fueled rage. e: vvv Romans were also pretty good at urban planning and the plumbing and infrastructure projects that made such cities as Rome possible, though Rome eventually became a clusterfuck slum that was completely dependant on foreign (well not in Italy) grain shipments to keep the city's poor from starving to death. e2: I also remember in a book I read that basically summarized the Romans as practical and conservative, in that they were quick to recognzie new methods from other lands that worked or appealed to them, while at the same time they would keep going along with any antiquated traditions and practises, so long as they were not completely broken, making only small adjustments in order to keep it going. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Apr 14, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 16:40
|
|
|
Wasn't the Roman Empire's big contribution more about law and administration and not so much technology and science? I remember reading that somewhere.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 16:40
|
|
|
Reveilled posted:I've often found that people who unironically agree with the Dark Ages graph have a really hard time actually naming technologies which were lost as a result of the collapse of Rome. Sodomy.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 16:45
|
|
|
Hogge Wild posted:Sodomy. That's not a technology. It's a tradition. We did not even lose the ability to make cement.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 16:48
|
|
|
SoggyBobcat posted:Wasn't the Roman Empire's big contribution more about law and administration and not so much technology and science? I remember reading that somewhere. They were no further behind in technology and science than any contemporary civilization to them was at the same time. They were real fuckin' good at construction and maintenance technology, and pretty decent at sanitation, both things that allowed to have a city of millions without everyone getting horrible diseases constantly. It might seem like these aren't anything special, but it took quite a while to return to being able to safely have a city of millions in Europe once things were allowed to decay. Riso posted:We did not even lose the ability to make cement. If I remember right, the whole thing with that misconception was half that if you leave concrete and cement standing for hindreds to thousands of years it naturally ends up having been more durable because it's still there; and also that their "secret techniques" were likely just access to some good raw materials to work with.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 16:54
|
|
|
If you take the higher estimates of Rome's population, 1 million people, then there wasn't a second city with that many inhabitants until London in the late 18th or early 19th century. That was quite a feat.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 17:12
|
|
|
Torrannor posted:If you take the higher estimates of Rome's population, 1 million people, then there wasn't a second city with that many inhabitants until London in the late 18th or early 19th century. That was quite a feat. Edo (Modern Tokyo) may have gotten close to 1 million during the Tokugawa period as well. It flourished under the nearly 200 years of stability and prosperity (and social stagnation) that followed the Sengoku Jidai.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 17:21
|
|
|
Randarkman posted:Edo (Modern Tokyo) may have gotten close to 1 million during the Tokugawa period as well. It flourished under the nearly 200 years of stability and prosperity (and social stagnation) that followed the Sengoku Jidai. That's true, and I have seen estimates of other cities that might have gotten 1 million people, but London is the earliest that we definitely know to reach that mark.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 17:24
|
|
|
Randarkman posted:Edo (Modern Tokyo) may have gotten close to 1 million during the Tokugawa period as well. It flourished under the nearly 200 years of stability and prosperity (and social stagnation) that followed the Sengoku Jidai. Baghdad and several Chinese cities hit a million or more at various times after Rome's population started dwindling severely, but that's why i restricted it to European cities. Europeans didn't get their poo poo together again until London.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 17:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 22:54 |
|
|
Torrannor posted:That's true, and I have seen estimates of other cities that might have gotten 1 million people, but London is the earliest that we definitely know to reach that mark. London was a provincial shithole compared to 15th/late 16th century Tenochtitlan, hth 
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2015 17:29
|
|