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drat Dirty Ape posted:This is my experience. They don't kill much of anything, but they do a good job of bogging down other things so my other units can kill them and they are very cheap. Sure, late game chaos and dwarfs will win with few casualties, but it will take them a while and you can afford a lot of them (and recruit them very quickly). Also, unlike chaos and the dwarfs the empire doesn't really get an upgraded 'tar pit' style of infantry anyway. It's not that Swordsmen with Honest Steel are bad compared to other factions basic infantry, it's that they don't really do much better than your other infantry options as Empire. Empire Spearmen are also cheap tanky units except they also have bonuses vs large, Halberdiers are amazingly cost effective against Chaos and Vampires in particular, and Flaggelants outperform swordsmen both at tying up stronger units and grinding through weaker ones. Nothing wrong with swordsmen, but I don't find much use for them in late-game compositions where armored and large units become increasingly common.
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May 18, 2017 00:27
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Kaza42 posted:High Elves got to fight in an extra rank, so 3 ranks normally or 4 for spearmen (5 for spearmen in hordes). But they did get a 2 attack unit in the Swordmaster I knew about the extra spear rank but don't see how that's relevant to 2 attack spears being OP. Didn't know about 2 attack swordmasters, they only had 1 when I played (I stopped shortly before the always strike first book)
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May 18, 2017 02:32
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yeah, the last edition saw the Department of Elves Better At Melee homogenized, somewhat. they had an interesting balance paradigm for High Elves vs. Dark Elves: in every matchup, the High Elf unit would be strictly better, were it not for the fact that the Dark Elf unit gets to reroll failed Did I Kill You rolls, which makes up for an AWFUL lot. White Lions/Executioners: Empire Greatswords, but much quicker on the draw. White Lions had 30% missile resistance, Executioners had Killing Blow, essentially "if we get to engage with your general he is loving dead." Swordmasters/Witch Elves: Wood Elf Wardancers. In the case of Swordmasters, carrying heavy armor and greatweapons, at the cost of being extremely expensive and not having Frenzy. In the case of Witch Elves, carrying poisoned weapons. Black Guard/Phoenix Guard: Give Halberdiers shields and immunity to both Fear and Terror. You may ask how the Elves wield two-handed weapons one-handed; they respond to you, "shut up." In the case of the Phoenix Guard, add on a flat 50% damage resistance in addition to their not inconsiderable armor. In the case of Black Guard, add on an additional bonus to the Did I Kill You roll.
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May 18, 2017 03:43
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Is there a chart/forum post that shows how heroes and lords gain XP?
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May 18, 2017 04:05
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How hard would it be to add the Lore of Heavens to Karl Franz? End Times are poo poo but Franz Ascendant was a beast.
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May 18, 2017 04:11
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Baron Porkface posted:Is there a chart/forum post that shows how heroes and lords gain XP? Not sure of the exact numbers but I know it's tied to the degree of victory, with pyrric victory offering the least and heroic victory giving the most.
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May 18, 2017 04:16
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Onmi posted:How hard would it be to add the Lore of Heavens to Karl Franz? End Times are poo poo but Franz Ascendant was a beast. I'd rather he just get some free spells like Volkmar.
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May 18, 2017 04:23
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jokes posted:I'd rather he just get some free spells like Volkmar. That'd work too.
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May 18, 2017 04:53
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Volkmar really should be the standard for the other two in a balance patch. His magic is superior to Gelt and free. His fightiness is superior to Franz, because his items make him just the strongest, he only misses out on not being able to fly but the war altar more than makes up for it by being basically a steam tank that heals, buffs, and sprays holy damage on everything nearby.
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May 18, 2017 05:13
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jokes posted:Volkmar really should be the standard for the other two in a balance patch. His magic is superior to Gelt and free. His fightiness is superior to Franz, because his items make him just the strongest, he only misses out on not being able to fly but the war altar more than makes up for it by being basically a steam tank that heals, buffs, and sprays holy damage on everything nearby. Gelt still suffers the worst, even if Lore of Metal isn't as bad as it once was. He really should start with a few spells. and I know that some Mods start him with spells, but it really should be official. They and the rest of the starting lords really suffer from being... well... the Starter Lords. EDIT: Time to review the Lorehammer mod. Always nice to have your first action in an Empire campaign be a battle of two armies (Scessionists and Grunburg) vs Franz alone. I don't know how this is the case, but sure enough. It seems to have overwritten the Better Starting Units mod. Onmi fucked around with this message at 06:31 on May 18, 2017 |
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May 18, 2017 05:23
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Imo sorcerer lords should start out with multiple spells unlocked. Why does Gelt have to take time to learn spells?
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May 18, 2017 09:26
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I think the main issue for Gelt is he does nothing that a generic Metal Lore sorcerer from Chaos can do, and is in fact a good sight more squishy. He should be more than just a Wizard.
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May 18, 2017 10:08
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Well Mazdamundi is apparently going to have some kind of mechanic that makes him a better caster. Hopefully it'll be something that will either also apply to other caster lords (to a lesser extent) or it'll be something that can be modded in.
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May 18, 2017 10:24
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I really want to see battle standard bearers make it into the game, I need some badass with a huge flag running around with my general.
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May 18, 2017 11:01
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Safety Factor posted:We're all mad. Mad about elves. I am prepared to have the biggest meltdown if White Lions are not in.
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May 18, 2017 11:24
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Lord_Hambrose posted:I am prepared to have the biggest meltdown if White Lions are not in. Party Elite I believe noticed the White Lions in the Lizardmen trailer.
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May 18, 2017 12:59
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Onmi posted:Party Elite I believe noticed the White Lions in the Lizardmen trailer. White Lions are in the trailer and also we had concept art for them, they're definitely in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVyRy3OUtKg CA also just put up a recap video from their roster reveal livestream that includes some new Lizardmen concept art. Kroxigars are like tubby little crocodile babies, it's adorable. http://i.imgur.com/W4PCsQ4.png
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May 18, 2017 13:38
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Lizardmen look really cool. I hope those alligator dudes get a biting animation when they attack. The only thing I don't like about their Lore is how they are basically 'bio androids' that spawn fully formed. It would've been more interesting to me if they had their own culture like everyone else. Someone's gotta pull the yams out of the ground, shovel dino poop, and hawk gaudy jewelry.
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May 18, 2017 13:55
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Panfilo posted:Someone's gotta pull the yams out of the ground, shovel dino poop, and hawk gaudy jewelry. Skinks, Kroxigors and skinks, respectively. Kroxis were meant to be heavy-duty workers, skinks are the smart and skilled who basically fill all the other jobs. Saurus are only for war.
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May 18, 2017 14:06
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Panfilo posted:Lizardmen look really cool. I hope those alligator dudes get a biting animation when they attack. I mean, they managed to form a new religion, whole cloth, so that's something.
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May 18, 2017 14:09
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Wallet posted:It should be compatible with any mod you want. That is, it shouldn't cause crashes or anything (it doesn't overwrite any core tables), but if Steel Faith is modifying banners as well then whichever mod's .pack file comes last alphabetically will overwrite the other's changes. Jamwad Hilder posted:I use steel faith and like 10 other mods, including this one, with no issues Thanks!
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May 18, 2017 14:53
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI2d3r5fhA8 Now with actual models.
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May 18, 2017 15:05
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Angry Lobster posted:Skinks, Kroxigors and skinks, respectively. Like, if anyone was given the chance to observe a temple-city in operation during peacetime, they'd think it was entirely a Skink civilization, one that had tamed larger dinosaurs to lift the heavy poo poo for them and that the king of their gods was the immobile frog thing in the center of the city. It's just that on the rare occasions that the immobile frog king opens his eyes and levitates his chair down the side of the temple-ziggurat, a saurus army emerges from their barrack-pools to meet him, and all city business stops as the skinks rush to make sure everyone's weapons and armor are 1. in place 2. contain appropriate good luck charms by the time they're formed up to march. Neither the saurus nor the slaan appear to give two shits about the good luck charms, but it makes the skinks happy to give the Cold One riders fancy snake iconography on their helmets and lucky feathers on their swords-that-are-basically-chainsaws. Seriously aztec macahuitls were metal as hell
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May 18, 2017 16:33
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Skinks are such cool little buddies 
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May 18, 2017 17:14
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Dream team: Franz and Lizardmen teaming up to fight Chaos: Skinks decorating Empire soldiers and making sure their equipment is good to go and frilly hats for all of the fighting Lizardmen.
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May 18, 2017 18:49
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All I know is I'm gonna be pretty steamed if a bunch of the new continents battle maps are incomprehensible jungles ala welves
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May 18, 2017 18:50
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I really, really hate trees. I wish you could at least burn them down somehow or knock them down with artillery, or make them COMPLETELY invisible. The hide foliage option doesn't do enough.
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May 18, 2017 18:54
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jokes posted:Dream team: Franz and Lizardmen teaming up to fight Chaos: Skinks decorating Empire soldiers and making sure their equipment is good to go and frilly hats for all of the fighting Lizardmen. this is now my headcanon
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May 18, 2017 19:00
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jokes posted:Dream team: Franz and Lizardmen teaming up to fight Chaos: Skinks decorating Empire soldiers and making sure their equipment is good to go and frilly hats for all of the fighting Lizardmen. United by a love of ostentatious ornamentation. Alternatively, the humans discovered the incredible power of fashion independently and it explains all their successes.
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May 18, 2017 19:07
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jokes posted:I really, really hate trees. I wish you could at least burn them down somehow or knock them down with artillery, or make them COMPLETELY invisible. The hide foliage option doesn't do enough. Agreed. Wish there was a transparency slider or something to make the area just faintly green tinted, or tree icons on the affected units. I hate the stupid tree stumps still there with foliage turned off.
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May 18, 2017 19:29
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i really don't understand why that's even a thing. I've been cursing forests since Rome 1. and fog. and mist. and walls that are too high.
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May 18, 2017 19:33
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Am I missing something or are most nuke spells really underwhelming?
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May 18, 2017 19:54
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Pellisworth posted:Am I missing something or are most nuke spells really underwhelming? Install Gejnor's mod and never look back.
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May 18, 2017 20:12
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Mordja posted:Install Gejnor's mod and never look back. While we're on the topic, what are the generally recommended balance mods?
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May 18, 2017 20:16
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Pellisworth posted:Am I missing something or are most nuke spells really underwhelming? They're mostly pretty underwhelming, but that doesn't mean they're not good. You can't destroy an army with magic but you can hurt it enough to crush it with your troops. Try casting immediately before a cavalry charge and watch dudes route asap. Wind of Death, Pit of Shades, and Fare of Bjina straight up murder.
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May 18, 2017 20:20
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I wish there was some way to compare spells- do all 'explosion' spells have similar characteristics or not? It's hard to figure out which ones are good
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May 18, 2017 20:24
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StashAugustine posted:I wish there was some way to compare spells- do all 'explosion' spells have similar characteristics or not? It's hard to figure out which ones are good The actual spell stats are something you can't see without digging through files and even then a lot of the numbers are extremely difficult to parse. It's one of those things were it's literally easier to judge spells by trying them out than it is attempting to decode the numbers behind them.
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May 18, 2017 22:15
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Instead of nerfing Spirit Leech they should have just used its damage as a base for scaling winds costing bolt spells (the free ones are fine with the damage they're at since you can use them endlessly) Bolt spells just feel underwhelming for their cost. They should be comparable to time Luminarch in direct hit damage because they can be easily dodged. The different lore's versions can in turn have unique properties tacked on;much bigger blast on impact, much faster projectile speed, stunning a target directly hit, etc.
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May 18, 2017 23:03
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I am all about getting real autismal about this game and this is how I view decisions on bringing wizards, based loosely on economics. Let's break the game down into this thought experiment: the theoretical variable "manpower" is the aggregate combat value of all of your troops. In a match, the loser is the person whose manpower is reduced to 0 because of routing/crumbling/dying, etc., or whose manpower is lowest at the end of the time of the round. When a unit loses some capability to fight (say, from loss of health, ammunition, models, vigor, etc.) their manpower (and the army's) is reduced because they are not in as good of fighting shape anymore. Because you cannot kill units without expending some amount of manpower (though stamina can regenerate on its own). Therefore, over the course of a battle each army is expending manpower in order to reduce the manpower of the other side by a greater value. Here's an example of what I'm talking about: a unit of spearmen has a value of let's say 200 manpower. By fighting a unit of light cavalry worth 200 manpower, they will end up losing some troops and expending their stamina and at the end of it, the spearmen will kill all the light cavalry but will have lost half their dudes doing it. So, they cost their opponent 200 manpower by expending 100 manpower. The actual "number" of manpower is irrelevant, it's just a relative variable. But they generate a margin of manpower here of 100 manpower (spent 100 manpower to cost the opponent 200). As the battle rages, the theoretical manpower resource goes up and down according to what's happening in the fight. Now let's say a bunch of swordsmen fight a bunch of zombies with no general. The zombies have manpower that is roughly equal to the swordsmen, and they're just gonna all duke it out and fight to the death. But the swordsmen have a wizard hero. The player controlling the wizard hero has a bunch of options in the form of spells. The wizard is useless in a fight, but he CAN use spells to generate a margin of manpower. The player, without directly thinking about it in these terms, is determining which action will hurt his opponent the most or save his units the most manpower-- he's seeking to create as big of a margin as he can with the spells. The only issue is, bringing a wizard means you're not bringing some other unit. To justify bringing a wizard, that wizard needs to do things that would create a margin of manpower between the two parties that is in excess of the additional manpower that bringing another similarly priced unit would have provided. (I'm into economics: he's essentially comparing the net present value of the wizard's capabilities versus the net present value of some other unit's capabilities). If a wizard uses all of his winds of magic to kill an entire unit's worth of models all by himself, he's probably not as useful as simply bringing another unit, since another unit likely could have done the same, and generated a larger margin of manpower by providing some other value, for example by continuing to fight for the rest of the battle. Therefore, a wizard that only does nuke spells just aren't worth it. They can't do enough damage to justify bringing them over some other similarly priced fighting unit. Some spells do a LOT of damage and are kind of worth it. Winds of death, pit of despair, etc., to name a few. A wizard that brings buff spells also often doesn't provide enough value, because outside of spells like Flaming Sword of Rhuin, the spells are shortlived and have weak effects and he only gets like 5 casts of them over the entire battle. Flaming Sword of Rhuin is good because it lets you gat down ghosts and trees, but that's a very situational usage. In any event, remember that when you kill units with magic, you're saving the vigor, health, and ammunition of whoever else would have needed to kill it. A life wizard is nice because he'll likely be able to provide enough healing that more than an entire unit's worth of health can be regenerated, which means it is providing >1 unit's worth of manpower, so life wizards are usually always worth bringing. At the end of the day, when you analyze the potentialities of unit choices you'll see that wizards are flashy and cool but 9 times out of 10, you'll have greater success and a higher return on your investments of money, time, and attention by just bringing some demigryphs instead. tl; dr: Wizards have a very low RoI compared to other units, and over the full course of a battle/campaign, a unit of similarly priced units will offer better value than a wizard. Don't bring wizards. Install Gejnor's magic mod, it makes wizards worth it.
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May 18, 2017 23:07
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Nah, if wizards were that ineffective for cost they'd see almost no use in MP and the exact opposite is true-People very rarely build an army in competitive MP without bringing a wizard. Wizards can and often do swing battles when used well and even a cheapo wizard with one spell is accessing a resource you'd otherwise be completely unable to tap into. By all means use mods if you want them to be stronger, but you can extract a lot of value out of them even in vanilla. quote:Bolt spells just feel underwhelming for their cost. They should be comparable to time Luminarch in direct hit damage because they can be easily dodged. The different lore's versions can in turn have unique properties tacked on;much bigger blast on impact, much faster projectile speed, stunning a target directly hit, etc. Closer to Warhammer's release, missile spells were much more powerful, which resulted in a bunch of wizards on flying mounts shooting bolts at each other until someone got the first hit and won the game. Consequently they got nerfed into the ground, then buffed into the stratosphere again, and then more gently nerfed to their current state, where they tend to be not quiiiiite worth their cost most of the time.
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May 18, 2017 23:24
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