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Digimon is basically an MMO isekai  e: oh jesus bad snipe
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May 2, 2020 04:50
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| # ? Jun 13, 2024 03:44 |
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Kanos posted:I dunno, Neo is really, really different from your standard Gundam Brainwashing Victim, even in his own universe. He's lucid and trusted enough to be in an extremely important position of command authority - he's the overall commander for the entire Gundamjack mission and the entire Destroy Gundam campaign, operating independently from oversight from above. For these campaigns, if something is done, it's because he either ordered it or condoned it. The dude literally has a different set of memories. Saying that "oh, he doesn't count as brainwashed because he's being trusted to do things" ignores that a good chunk of what that means. He is literally more brainwashed than someone like Sven who is more the victim of long-term indoctrination and drugs. Saying 'it is well within his power to stop' ignores the context behind him having an entirely different history and that influencing how he acts. "He's lucid and trusted enough" is like... half of the brainwashing victims in anime are literally dudes or ladies put in positions of authority. This is not uncommon for the genre, even the grittier parts of the genre. It's just the vast majority of them end up dying unless they are a love interest or important enough character. I certainly don't buy the 'he would have stood trial and been punished' because man Gundam shows don't even punish people who are literal war criminals who swap sides. Even if they're wanted they just go into hiding or whatever.
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May 2, 2020 05:02
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ImpAtom posted:I certainly don't buy the 'he would have stood trial and been punished' because man Gundam shows don't even punish people who are literal war criminals who swap sides. Even if they're wanted they just go into hiding or whatever. The most ridiculous example of this is probably Zechs in Wing, who tries to pull as part of his Char% speedrun crashing a battleship into the Earth and causing nuclear winter and somehow survives, becomes a cop with his own new suit under the world government in Eternal Waltz, and then goes off to colonize Mars.
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May 2, 2020 08:40
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ImpAtom posted:The dude literally has a different set of memories. Saying that "oh, he doesn't count as brainwashed because he's being trusted to do things" ignores that a good chunk of what that means. He is literally more brainwashed than someone like Sven who is more the victim of long-term indoctrination and drugs. Saying 'it is well within his power to stop' ignores the context behind him having an entirely different history and that influencing how he acts. The point of addressing that he's lucid and in command is to emphasize is that he's a functioning adult with agency who can be held responsible for his decisions. He's not a child soldier being goaded into battle by deeply embedded psychological trigger words or forced to obey orders due to requiring a steady supply of hosed up combat drugs to not fall apart and die, like the Extended are. You can make a pretty good argument that someone like Stella or Sting - who have a psychological and physiological gun to their heads that mandates that they follow all orders given or die in agony - cannot be held responsible for their actions, but Neo sure as gently caress can. What memories he has are largely immaterial. He could be Mwu, he could be Neo, he could be Mwu given different memories to become Neo, he could be Kou Uraki - it really doesn't matter at all, because at the time of Berlin he was a lucid, functioning adult in a position of authority who complied with an order from his superior to orchestrate the mass murder of tens of thousands of civilians. The fact that he suffers no physical or psychological consequences/long term issues once he gets picked up by the Archangel - despite openly taking up arms against his former employers later in the show, even - is proof that there was no inescapable or irresistable hold over him beyond "the memories they gave him might make him kind of loyal to them I guess?", and being loyal isn't an excuse for, you know, following orders to massacre tens of thousands of civilians. There's a reason why I said "in a grittier show" when I said he should have stood trial. Gundam never does that, but Mwu/Neo in Destiny is a straight up "send him to the Hague" style war criminal and the fact that he got a free pass because he happens to be Mwu la Flaga and thus part of the Clyne Faction's in-group is one of the many unintentionally funny aspects of the final outcome of Destiny.
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May 2, 2020 12:59
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Like, I can see the angle for Mu not being responsible for his actions as Neo if they framed things like what the Extends had to continually deal with. But they didn’t. At all. Mu’s just “well, I guess I lost 2 years of my life thinking I was another dude, but meh, I’m with Murrue again” and moved on without fanfare. Mu is so profoundly underdeveloped that with what we are presented with, Mu may have the memories of Neo, but he does not seem to care. This reflects remarkably poorly on Mu’s character where I’m not even sure the writers even fully intended this.
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May 2, 2020 14:24
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Despite having the same body, Mu La Flaga and Neo Roanoke are two different people. In a world where memories can be rewritten like Seed, the idea of holding Mu accountable for Neo's actions because Mu hasn't flagellated himself enough is laughably unjust. At that point you're talking performative justice for the victims that doesn't involve actually punishing the person responsible.MechaX posted:Like, I can see the angle for Mu not being responsible for his actions as Neo if they framed things like what the Extends had to continually deal with. But they didn’t. At all. Mu’s just “well, I guess I lost 2 years of my life thinking I was another dude, but meh, I’m with Murrue again” and moved on without fanfare. Mu is so profoundly underdeveloped that with what we are presented with, Mu may have the memories of Neo, but he does not seem to care. This reflects remarkably poorly on Mu’s character where I’m not even sure the writers even fully intended this. I agree with the underdevelopment, but also his non-chalantness is pretty consistent with who he was in Seed. He's show to be a bit of a wise rear end who is pretty good about keeping focused on what is important and acts as a stable reference to other characters who are processing their own traumas. It's not exactly surprising that he wouldn't think it the best time to try and work through just how many civilians he murdered while still fighting the war. His therapist is going to need a therapist though.
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May 2, 2020 17:37
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The main thing that saved Mu from being punished was that Captain Boobs was hot for him. Nothing else mattered to the writers.
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May 2, 2020 18:18
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Warmachine posted:Despite having the same body, Mu La Flaga and Neo Roanoke are two different people. In a world where memories can be rewritten like Seed, the idea of holding Mu accountable for Neo's actions because Mu hasn't flagellated himself enough is laughably unjust. At that point you're talking performative justice for the victims that doesn't involve actually punishing the person responsible. When Neo gets picked up by the Archangel, he doesn't bash his head or flip a switch and suddenly "wake up" from being Neo - he slowly and gradually remembers his past as time passes and stuff happens, but there's no indication he forgets or disassociates from his time as Neo. Pre-brainwashing Mwu and Neo are two different people, but Neo and Late Destiny Mwu are absolutely still the same person.
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May 2, 2020 19:05
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Kanos posted:When Neo gets picked up by the Archangel, he doesn't bash his head or flip a switch and suddenly "wake up" from being Neo - he slowly and gradually remembers his past as time passes and stuff happens, but there's no indication he forgets or disassociates from his time as Neo. Pre-brainwashing Mwu and Neo are two different people, but Neo and Late Destiny Mwu are absolutely still the same person. I disagree. They're three different people if we're going to distinguish late-Destiny (which I'll restrict to post-positron cannon Mu) from Seed-Mu. The fuzzy area is in the runup between when Neo is released at Orb and when he blocks the shot and gets the rest of his memory back. That's really the last time you have to put Neo Roanoke on trial. The guy who exists after that point is a Mu who now knows (intimately) his body has spent the past two years being used to warcrime it up, and while we never see him reckon with that, the show runners didn't exactly give him enough screen time to reckon with it. But the more interesting quandary to me is that you have an issue where there is one corporeal body that can be punished, but multiple people inhabit it. Even if you want to punish Neo, you're also punishing Mu. To make matters worse, the people you might send to space Hague instead are mostly dead. I think that overall the series wants you to see Mu as a victim of the Alliance as much as folks like Sven are. Sven, for the record, is absolutely space Hague material, even if he ended up getting a pass like Yzak did. Anyway, have a goofy gunpla video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUqbCShTUek
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May 2, 2020 23:45
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Kanos posted:When Neo gets picked up by the Archangel, he doesn't bash his head or flip a switch and suddenly "wake up" from being Neo - he slowly and gradually remembers his past as time passes and stuff happens, but there's no indication he forgets or disassociates from his time as Neo. Pre-brainwashing Mwu and Neo are two different people, but Neo and Late Destiny Mwu are absolutely still the same person. No they explicitly are not. Neo gets flashes of Mu's memories which influences his decisions but he explicitly doesn't turn back into Mu until he repeats his death sequence in the Akatsuki and survives. That is the exact moment that happens and which you're saying doesn't exist. Like the entire point of that sequence is that he blocks it, that returns his memories, and then he tells Ramias that he's back and won't be going anywhere again. That is straight up "The real me is back" stuff. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:54 on May 3, 2020 |
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May 3, 2020 00:42
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Warmachine posted:But the more interesting quandary to me is that you have an issue where there is one corporeal body that can be punished, but multiple people inhabit it. Even if you want to punish Neo, you're also punishing Mu. Legally it's probably a lot like Siamese twins, and as far as I recall, the law on that is that they can't be jailed if one commits a crime, because it's punishing an innocent to do so. At least in some places.
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May 3, 2020 14:30
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it's a cop-out but mu being alive in the first place was a cop-out so uh i guess it's double-negative cop-out cancellation? i don't know
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May 3, 2020 14:33
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Yinlock posted:it's a cop-out but mu being alive in the first place was a cop-out so uh i guess it's double-negative cop-out cancellation? i don't know All I know is that somewhere, Cagalli is crying! Of course, thinking about SEED makes me think of how much what Gundams you see first influences favorites. Seeing SEED before the original tends to make people like it better, and Wing's American fandom comes in part from it being the original US release, meaning it was the first exposure to a lot of ideas that would be old hat. And that, as I've said before, is probably part of why 08th didn't work for me. The Gundams were treated in a more grounded fashion than most shows, but Iron Blooded Orphans has so many scenes of people running out of ammo, refueling, and otherwise having to deal with actual logistical concerns that 08th's stuff felt much more... minor.
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May 4, 2020 04:31
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chiasaur11 posted:All I know is that somewhere, Cagalli is crying! Yeah, for me I started on Wing, and saw 0079, G, Seed, and 08th on TV at various points. TV being what it was, this was unreliable for getting a whole story. I don't think I ever finished the entirety of a Gundam show until I got the Seed box set for my birthday one year. I grew to like the U.C. timeline more and more overtime, and I remember being extremely begrudging about 00 when it first aired because I didn't like that the suits floated around on sparkling lights instead of having thrusters.
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May 4, 2020 16:38
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I saw SEED before 0079, and to be honest, it made me appreciate the original more and SEED less.
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May 4, 2020 16:44
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Darth Walrus posted:I saw SEED before 0079, and to be honest, it made me appreciate the original more and SEED less. It should because SEED is a retread of the OG story. The episode layouts follow almost all the same plot beats for like the first 20-24 episodes was my recollection. They threw in some of the AU stuff that had worked before and slapped it on the skeleton of 0079 at least in the early going. vvv SEED gets a bad wrap, and I'll cop to it too, I think mostly because of how awful Destiny turned out that it retroactively spoils SEED. It's fine and all, but the changes in the remaster to fit the narrative character bits in Destiny better is kinda ugh. I think SEED is just fine, just don't watch Destiny. The Notorious ZSB fucked around with this message at 20:00 on May 4, 2020 |
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May 4, 2020 17:55
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I’ve been meaning to sit down and rewatch SEED for like a month now. It’s been so long, and it’s so hard to separate what I remember of it from the general consensus of the fandom.
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May 4, 2020 19:43
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SEED is just this really weird mix of sleazy and toyetic that just never blends together well
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May 4, 2020 22:20
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My very first exposure to gundam was a GP01 action figure I got from a relative on my birthday, followed some years later by the Federation vs Zeon game for PS2, which I would argue is still one of the best gundam games out there
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May 4, 2020 23:14
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drrockso20 posted:SEED is just this really weird mix of sleazy and toyetic that just never blends together well At the very least they should have included repeated stock footage of Mu and Rau's junk bouncing around as their suits clash, in the interests of equality.
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May 5, 2020 00:20
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:My very first exposure to gundam was a GP01 action figure I got from a relative on my birthday, followed some years later by the Federation vs Zeon game for PS2, which I would argue is still one of the best gundam games out there I would kill for another game in that mold where you were some nameless grunt and chose missions and got new MS's over the course of the game. Gundam vs zeta Gundam was good, but loving with the timeline didn't feel as good as carving out your own place on the list of aces from the one year war.
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May 5, 2020 00:40
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:My very first exposure to gundam was a GP01 action figure I got from a relative on my birthday, followed some years later by the Federation vs Zeon game for PS2, which I would argue is still one of the best gundam games out there If I had to credit anything with converting me to a U.C. person, it's FvZ, and the Journey to Jaburo/Encounters In Space games. Between those and Ace Combat, you've described about 70% of what I used my PS2 for back in the day. jackhunter64 posted:At the very least they should have included repeated stock footage of Mu and Rau's junk bouncing around as their suits clash, in the interests of equality. Yeah, I never got why Seed was so obsessed with naked women and bouncing boobs. I mean, aside from the obvious reason. It feels weird to watch.
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May 5, 2020 00:50
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Gaius Marius posted:I would kill for another game in that mold where you were some nameless grunt and chose missions and got new MS's over the course of the game. Gundam vs zeta Gundam was good, but loving with the timeline didn't feel as good as carving out your own place on the list of aces from the one year war. Gundam Battle Operation 2 is actually pretty good at nailing that feeling once you get into the groove of things and start getting some more suits
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May 5, 2020 00:58
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Gaius Marius posted:I would kill for another game in that mold where you were some nameless grunt and chose missions and got new MS's over the course of the game. Gundam vs zeta Gundam was good, but loving with the timeline didn't feel as good as carving out your own place on the list of aces from the one year war. There were several on the PSP (Gundam Battle Universe is the only one to mess with, as each successive one included everything in all previous games) and one on the Vita, but after Gundam SEED Battle Destiny, Artdink hasn't revisited the series.
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May 5, 2020 02:45
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Gaius Marius posted:I would kill for another game in that mold where you were some nameless grunt and chose missions and got new MS's over the course of the game. Gundam vs zeta Gundam was good, but loving with the timeline didn't feel as good as carving out your own place on the list of aces from the one year war. Actually, I've been thinking about this and something I wish I could do in Crossrays is change how things play out. Like canonically someone dies because they're outnumbered and make a heroic sacrifice? Nah bruh, I brought two battleships and 18 mobile suits to this fight. You're good.
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May 5, 2020 04:08
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Warmachine posted:Actually, I've been thinking about this and something I wish I could do in Crossrays is change how things play out. There's actually few minor characters in Crossrays who can survive their deaths if you play well. The Astray pilots in SEED and Hush in IBO are all the examples that come to mind, but there might be a couple more.
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May 5, 2020 04:40
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Warmachine posted:Yeah, I never got why Seed was so obsessed with naked women and bouncing boobs. I mean, aside from the obvious reason. It feels weird to watch. I'm kinda surprised they didn't lean into the whole zero-g thing for that, considering how much kinetic bouncing occurs any time the ship gets so much as grazed.
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May 5, 2020 05:37
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chiasaur11 posted:There's actually few minor characters in Crossrays who can survive their deaths if you play well. The Astray pilots in SEED and Hush in IBO are all the examples that come to mind, but there might be a couple more. I guess I never really thought about them. For the Astray pilots its because they didn't have speaking roles beyond that point. I forgot that Hush died because I haven't watched IBO in a bit.
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May 5, 2020 16:55
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 He's living up to his reputation and I haven't even gotten past the exposition slides. edit: jfc they gave him a laugh sound effect Warmachine fucked around with this message at 03:40 on May 6, 2020 |
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May 6, 2020 03:37
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Fon Spaak sounds like someones Stark Trek self insert. To be fair I haven't checked out anything for 00 outside of the main tv series and the movie.
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May 6, 2020 04:18
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Neddy Seagoon posted:I'm kinda surprised they didn't lean into the whole zero-g thing for that, considering how much kinetic bouncing occurs any time the ship gets so much as grazed. SEED leans pretty hard into the zero G thing. Partially because it's really freaking cheap to animate someone sliding along the hallway admittedly. The bouncing is just because Gundam Horny. The type of Horny just depends on the show.
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May 6, 2020 04:27
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ImpAtom posted:SEED leans pretty hard into the zero G thing. Partially because it's really freaking cheap to animate someone sliding along the hallway admittedly. I was specifically poking fun at that  . Moving about in zero-g without a bra would cause...? 
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May 6, 2020 11:38
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seed’s use of zero g is pretty good if only for one goof in which someone on the bridge lets go of their water bottle but they’re in atmosphere so it just falls to the ground and goes like “oh”
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May 6, 2020 17:28
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Here's a link to the latest ReRise episode. I like it. While it didn't advance the plot much, we got a pretty cool battle got to see character growth from several characters. I thought Stola was going to be the Katz analogue at first, but he turned out alright. Hiroto taking an intentional hit just so he can lock Alus in place, and crash the Uranus Armor into him Waverider-style was metal as gently caress. 
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May 7, 2020 12:56
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I really liked how much their tactics have changed now that they know what they're really fighting for. It's pretty fun remembering back at the beginning when Kazami said the premised didn't sound very Gundam, and now the show is orders of magnitude more Gundam than any previous Build series.
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May 7, 2020 13:16
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amigolupus posted:Here's a link to the latest ReRise episode. Gripweed posted:I really liked how much their tactics have changed now that they know what they're really fighting for. Seriously. They managed to choreograph a tense sniper duel, give some insight into Hiroto's past, and deliver the standard "Living is important!" message common in Gundam. I'm pretty comfortable saying Re:Rise is going to be one of my favorites, so long as they stick the landing. It feels like an honest AU Gundam show than a Build show at this point. edit: Also, you've gotta admire their commitment to the Patrick Colasaur meme. Warmachine fucked around with this message at 15:19 on May 7, 2020 |
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May 7, 2020 14:57
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You can tell that the series doesn't really have the budget that a real AU or even some of the older builders show but the battle choreography is top notch. Its a disservice that the original divers exist, they should have done something like this on the first divers and then expand with a proper second season.
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May 7, 2020 16:14
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Great episode. Sniper fights are my jam, so this episode was a treat. Also Hiroto using the gun to ram it into Alus's face and then jamming his arm into the gun and shoot it, is just icing on the cake. Also great character development for Kazami. The same guy who was obsessed with getting kills and not giving two shits about the furry guys now is completely willing to grab a shield and potentially sacrifice himself for the sake of three of them.
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May 7, 2020 16:20
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Monaghan posted:Great episode. Sniper fights are my jam, so this episode was a treat. Also Hiroto using the gun to ram it into Alus's face and then jamming his arm into the gun and shoot it, is just icing on the cake. They've done a great job of setting up for the Aegis Knight too, with the shield getting absolutely hosed and you can see the wheels turning in Kazami's head going "I need a BETTER shield". On a side-note; Is it just me, or does it look like from the OP that it can Core-Change?
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May 7, 2020 16:45
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| # ? Jun 13, 2024 03:44 |
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Of course, the real secret to the difference in quality between the two seasons is that Yasuyuki Muto is a much better writer than Noboru Kimura.
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May 7, 2020 16:46
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