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Here's a decent one from a few pages back. I think most of the thread regulars are roughly in agreement with it.buglord posted:
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Sep 30, 2020 19:15
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I'm actually really torn on prop 22, it does seem like drivers are in favor of staying independent contractors. Gig companies definitely suck, but there is a good benefit to being in charge of your own schedule and time. I'd like to see the solution be medi-cal for all, removing the connection between health insurance and employment. Its a weird one for me, uber needs to die, but I don't want to to punish workers in doing so. Tell me how I'm wrong. I't is kinda funny though that I have asked a few drivers about it, and they either don't want to comment out of professionalism, or just aren't engaged enough to know. Its odd.
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Sep 30, 2020 19:28
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Sydin posted:Liccardo is a dipshit. Shout out to... San Jose Spotlight San Jose Inside
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Sep 30, 2020 19:34
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Xlorp posted:Shout out to... 
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Sep 30, 2020 19:42
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eSporks posted:I'm actually really torn on prop 22, it does seem like drivers are in favor of staying independent contractors. Gig companies definitely suck, but there is a good benefit to being in charge of your own schedule and time. It helps to have the benefits package managed by a non-employer 3rd party like a union. E: their a tech company, I'm sure if they put as much effort into figuring out the employee benefit system as they have into circumventing labor law they could figure it out. CopperHound fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Sep 30, 2020 |
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Sep 30, 2020 19:45
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eSporks posted:I'm actually really torn on prop 22, it does seem like drivers are in favor of staying independent contractors. Gig companies definitely suck, but there is a good benefit to being in charge of your own schedule and time. I'd like to see the solution be medi-cal for all, removing the connection between health insurance and employment. Uber, Lyft, and DoorDash have spent almost $200 million already on passing it. That should answer any question you have. Frankly, that there are people who are fine with being abused by their employer isn't particularly persuasive. Find any tweet or LinkedIn post about how bosses should be nicer to their employees and you'll see a flood of comments from people about how it's actually cool and good that employees get poo poo on and "actually I like being treated like a toilet, to work is to suffer and that is noble" and on and on. Americans have REALLY REALLY BAD relationships with work. I have met more than my share of people who think that working 80 hour weeks for low pay actually makes them a better person than other people; that "hustling" is a sign of how smart and committed you are, when it's really just another sign of how awful our society is. I'm reminded of a guy I knew at Circuit City who would brag about voting against unionizing. He didn't draw the connection between that vote and Circuit City slashing everyone's wages and benefits a year later, he was just so proud that he saw through the union and stopped them from getting dues out of his paycheck. Uber and Lyft are saving a ton of money by dodging the responsibility any other employer would have towards their employee, and it's doubly funny because, even though they're dodging a bunch of employment costs, the long term business model is still to fire literally all the drivers and replace them with AI. If they were actually employees they could be protected from that or organize against it but instead you have some drivers getting upset that they might not be able to drive for 70 hours a week earning four bucks an hour after vehicle costs are factored in. It's incredibly self-defeating.
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Sep 30, 2020 19:57
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Wicked Them Beats posted:Uber, Lyft, and DoorDash have spent almost $200 million already on passing it. That should answer any question you have.
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Sep 30, 2020 20:06
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CopperHound posted:I don't know of any laws that require employees to work fixed hours. Just clock in and out. Right now they don't do that, because they have a financial incentive not to. I'm also curious how the healthcare requirement would play out. Without a scheduled work load, couldn't a worker theoretically ping-pong back and forth between the threshold for health care? The argument here is that uber would have to control a workers schedule at least in some capacity to make sure this doesn't happen, or it becomes a paperwork nightmare as they move in and out of coverage. Personal anecdote. I used to work at dollar tree and got 38 hours per pay period, just enough to keep me under the 40 hour "full-time" to receive benefits. When obama-care dropped the threshold to 35 hours, my hours were cut down to 32. The company was also incredibly aggressive about going over that threshold and caused all kinds of scheduling conflicts and tied the store managers hands in handling them. I accidentally went over that threshold enough to qualify for benefits and almost got fired for it. I am just a little bit leary about something I see as a half measure, and I don't trust uber not to pass the burden onto their employees. lovely employers are always going to find ways to be lovely. Being an independent contractor does have benefits, and I fear that losing that classification will empower uber to restrict its employees more. EDIT: Right to unionize is a strong argument. Thanks. eSporks fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Sep 30, 2020 |
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Sep 30, 2020 20:07
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Prop. 22, if I understand it correctly, also adds a 7/8ths requirement to the legislature attempting to changes any labor laws. That’s insane and would gridlock the legislature even further, effectively giving republicans the ability to control what gets written into law if they controlled just a little more than 1/8th of the body. There were some issues with AB5. They can be, and many of them have been addressed in the legislature, because it turns out that’s the best way to deal with complex technicalities, rather than gigantic plebiscites. E: ok I looked it up and the 7/8ths requirement only applies to changing prop 22 specifically, but that’s still real loving bad. Smash that no button folks. Fill Baptismal fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Sep 30, 2020 |
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Sep 30, 2020 20:17
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eSporks posted:The argument I see being made is that if uber is forced to provide benefits, then they might as well start treating their workers as normal employees, force them to work peak times, and put them under a more restrictive contract. I don't think how you get how Uber/Lyft work. Their entire business model is to screw employees by paying them crap until they can be replaced by robotic cars. They aren't making money and have no path to profitibility. Their ability to abuse workers is the only thing that are keeping them in business. Most of their drivers don't do the math on how much they make an hour, and frankly, the economy is poo poo so they are desperate.
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Sep 30, 2020 20:25
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Still Dismal posted:Prop. 22, if I understand it correctly, also adds a 7/8ths requirement to the legislature attempting to changes any labor laws. That’s insane and would gridlock the legislature even further, effectively giving republicans the ability to control what gets written into law if they controlled just a little more than 1/8th of the body. The 7/8ths requirement is only for amendments to Prop 22 itself. It's just a clause so that if Uber finds out they somehow screwed themselves with the prop or how the courts interpret it they could And yeah, it's no coincidence that the worst props are usually on matters the legislature has already addressed, like this one or the cash bail one. It's just big companies trying to use the ballot box because they couldn't buy off enough Assemblymembers to win in the legislature.
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Sep 30, 2020 20:26
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Wicked Them Beats posted:Here's a decent one from a few pages back. I think most of the thread regulars are roughly in agreement with it. Thanks for posting! Almost exactly on par with mine, only differences is I'm voting No on 14 & 23. My understanding with 14 is that there's not a lot of oversight and it's a bit like the wild west in terms of making money. I based my decision on the opinion of the Center for Genetics and Society, which sound like some evil entity but seems to have good intentions and a good track record as far as I can tell. For 23, the key takeaway that passage of this bill would impact the ability for community dialysis centers to stay open. I'm concerned, much like the post above, with it impacting poorer communities.
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Sep 30, 2020 20:45
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i just got the voter info booklet in the mail and lmao they got the president of the california naacp to write against prop 15
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Sep 30, 2020 21:45
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Shear Modulus posted:i just got the voter info booklet in the mail and lmao they got the president of the california naacp to write against prop 15 I think the most peak non-profit speak I’ve ever seen was a couple years ago when the head of some online advertising consortium tried to argue that ad-blocking was racist. Fill Baptismal fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Sep 30, 2020 |
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Sep 30, 2020 22:08
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fits my needs posted:https://twitter.com/GavinNewsom/status/1311186214075027457?s=20 E:nm
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Sep 30, 2020 22:10
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eSporks posted:I'm actually really torn on prop 22, it does seem like drivers are in favor of staying independent contractors. Gig companies definitely suck, but there is a good benefit to being in charge of your own schedule and time. I'd like to see the solution be medi-cal for all, removing the connection between health insurance and employment. These companies are spending $200 million to defeat prop 22, that should tell you everything you need to know.
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Sep 30, 2020 22:35
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Centrist Committee posted:These companies are spending $200 million to defeat prop 22, that should tell you everything you need to know.
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Sep 30, 2020 23:09
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love to use lgbtq+ and bipoc ppl as a cudgel to crush labor. pretty win. thanks. i like her, and french, too, generally. good to remember that theatre in this stupid city fought tooth and nail to avoid paying actors.... minimum wage https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/story/2020-09-30/la-small-theater-community-covid-closures-virtual-festival posted:Compounding the economic uncertainty is California Assembly Bill 5, which established new rules for employing independent contractors, requiring many to be reclassified as employees with extensive labor protections.
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Sep 30, 2020 23:20
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fits my needs posted:https://twitter.com/GavinNewsom/status/1311186214075027457?s=20 Gavin I voted for you and also last i checked the dems have a supermajority in both houses yet there has been more or less zero action on basically all of these items. Who should I vote for if I want California to address these problems? The Republicans?
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Sep 30, 2020 23:27
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eSporks posted:Yeah. I think I'm getting stuck drinking the kool-aid. Pre-covid I would have been 100% for it, but the fact that its one of the only forms of guaranteed employment right now has me asking more questions than usual. The solution to that is to institute a proper unemployment program or UBI, not to keep letting them abuse employees so they can shove some extra billions into their own pockets. And it's guaranteed employment in the same way an MLM lets you be your own boss. You can't even drive for these companies unless you have a fairly new, expensive car, and I'd be willing to bet there's a whole bunch of people who bought a new car to drive for Uber/Lyft and aren't counting that cost against their earnings. Probably quite a few drivers who would find out they're actually losing money driving for Uber if they did the numbers correctly.
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Sep 30, 2020 23:33
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Wicked Them Beats posted:And it's guaranteed employment in the same way an MLM lets you be your own boss.
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Sep 30, 2020 23:35
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https://twitter.com/GavinNewsom/status/1311432334743273472?s=20
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Sep 30, 2020 23:54
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eSporks posted:I'm actually really torn on prop 22, it does seem like drivers are in favor of staying independent contractors. Gig companies definitely suck, but there is a good benefit to being in charge of your own schedule and time. I'd like to see the solution be medi-cal for all, removing the connection between health insurance and employment. Where's the dilemma, then? When Uber dies all those workers will lose their totally-not-jobs. Why do you care what they want if you think (like me) the business model needs to be stomped into dust?
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Oct 1, 2020 00:20
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Wicked Them Beats posted:The solution to that is to institute a proper unemployment program or UBI, not to keep letting them abuse employees so they can shove some extra billions into their own pockets. And it's guaranteed employment in the same way an MLM lets you be your own boss. You can't even drive for these companies unless you have a fairly new, expensive car, and I'd be willing to bet there's a whole bunch of people who bought a new car to drive for Uber/Lyft and aren't counting that cost against their earnings. Probably quite a few drivers who would find out they're actually losing money driving for Uber if they did the numbers correctly. "Guaranteed employment" : your employment is guaranteed unless you get a bad review or do anything we arbitrarily don't like. Meme Poker Party fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Oct 1, 2020 |
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Oct 1, 2020 01:43
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Chomp8645 posted:"Guaranteed employment" : your employment is guaranteed unless you get a bad review or do anything we arbitrarily don't like. "Bad review" in corporate speak means "4/5" or "9/10" by the way. Giving those numbers tells corporate to fire the people you interacted with, and lower numbers means to fire them faster and more spitefully.
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Oct 1, 2020 01:49
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Complications posted:"Bad review" in corporate speak means "4/5" or "9/10" by the way. Giving those numbers tells corporate to fire the people you interacted with, and lower numbers means to fire them faster and more spitefully. The worst is when you work with children, and they get to review you, and you get to explain to your manager every time why some random 10 year old who could barely stop playing Fortnite long enough to fill out a form only gave you a 9 out of 10.
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Oct 1, 2020 02:08
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Listening to activists with Justice LA talking about Prop 25 right now. Looking like a solid no once you get into the details.
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Oct 1, 2020 02:44
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 Here it is folks, the house killer. Very lucky the wind isnt high, or this thing lands in your chimney or window and burns a hole where your house used to be.
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Oct 1, 2020 03:02
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Jaxyon posted:Listening to activists with Justice LA talking about Prop 25 right now. Looking like a solid no once you get into the details. What are the details.
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Oct 1, 2020 03:02
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Cup Runneth Over posted:What are the details. https://noonprop25ca.com/ - Massively increased funding for the probation dept - puts pre-trial people who weren't previously under the probation dept under them - judges get huge leeway and can just ignore the algorithm - the algorithm is racist, sexist, and ageist - analysis indicates it's almost certainly going to *increase* the amount of minority populations *in jail* basically most of the activists orgs want to end cash bail. their research says this is going to be worse than the current system, sneaking in a bunch of bad poo poo under the guise of something that's good in a vacuum. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Oct 1, 2020 |
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Oct 1, 2020 03:07
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Most of those objections don't make sense to me. The text of the proposition tells the Judicial Council of California to come up with a list of algorithm choices, then individual courts pick from that list, but doesn't define any specific methods. There isn't any actual algorithm choice in the text to criticize, just principles that JCC is supposed to follow when coming up with them. My guess is that places will take their existing bail schedules and say "Below $X is now low risk, above $Y is high risk, in between is medium". That probably is racist in ways (e.g. LA county's 'Was the offense committed for the benefit of a gang => +$40,000 to the bail"), but it's also not a change, things like that are in the law now. There's maybe some risk in that at a hearing for a 'medium risk' person, there's a rebuttable presumption that violent felony charge implies public safety risk where right now it just triggers a big bail amount. Simultaneously objecting to a judge having leeway and objecting to a mechanical process where there is less leeway doesn't make any sense. For the probation stuff, I can't find anything that probation departments are actually even doing in the text besides giving County Chief Probation Officers reporting requirements and obligations to cooperate with the courts. It's also explicit that ""Pretrial Assessment Services" [the thing it is creating] does not include supervision of persons released under this chapter." I guess you could get an expansion of people under probation if courts take people in the medium/high groups who would before have bailed out with high dollar amounts but nothing else and make them do check ins/ankle bracelet type monitoring instead. Foxfire_ fucked around with this message at 04:02 on Oct 1, 2020 |
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Oct 1, 2020 03:55
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Foxfire_ posted:Most of those objections don't make sense to me. I mean, feel free to check out that website, but I'm guessing "folks who work on justice reform every day" have a good idea of whether this is bad or not, rather than my 2nd hand reiteration of some notes I took.
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Oct 1, 2020 04:00
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eSporks posted:I'm actually really torn on prop 22, it does seem like drivers are in favor of staying independent contractors. Gig companies definitely suck, but there is a good benefit to being in charge of your own schedule and time. I'd like to see the solution be medi-cal for all, removing the connection between health insurance and employment.  so skip this if you wantYou are right that independent contractor models allow more individuals to work more. Getting work when you want it is a form of security and control. It also generally gives those folks more control over their schedules - which is a big deal that is not generally given the value due to it either. Even bigger, people who speak no english can mostly get work without barriers...so there's some form of equity there. However. Not all employment is valuable. Some of it actively hurts people and society at large. We deliver the bulk of our social safety net benefits through employment in this country. I think that is hosed up and wrong personally. But it is what it is. By outsourcing their entire workforce to independent contractordom gig platforms also outsource the costs of that support to the drivers. If the drivers pay it, they will be making money for each mile driven after accounting for full costs (depreciation, taxes, insurance, expenses, opportunity cost) but not much. Generally it's about $5-9 dollars an hour. Many uber drivers have crazy other costs too though, like special car lease loans with super high interest rates. In general, it is work for the bored/retired or desperate/cash-flow constricted. Usually they don't pay those taxes or insurance costs though. So on the ground it is bad...but not obviously evil. From a policy perspective though gig platforms are a disaster. You have whole industries not paying into social security. You have whole industries threatening to hang out a workforce to self-insure (and thus under-insure for medical coverage.) You have whole industries leaving their states to chase every independent contractor down for a $2000 tax bill. These industries then create a race to the bottom in their respective fields because it's impossible to compete if your competitor is deciding to opt out of the social safety net (often illegally). It's not wrong for Uber drivers to fear losing gig work if 22 goes against the platforms. It's totally possible. If I were cash-poor, stuck in a pay-day car loan and had bills on the horizon I would absolutely be worried when Uber tells me they'll cut my rides if 22 doesn't pass. That's on Uber though who are absolute fucks exploiting desperate people, refusing to pay their fair share, and dragging everyone in their industry down in the process.
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Oct 1, 2020 04:08
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Having read the text of SB10, I still think it's a good change. Almost all people charged with misdemeanors must be released within 12 hours. The only exceptions area a few repeat offender misdemeanors (multiple DUIs, etc) and all felonies are given a risk level. Low risk folks are released. Medium risk folks are judged on a case by case basis and can argue for themselves. High risk folks are held. And there's built-in review of the analysis tools: 1320.24. (a) The Judicial Council shall adopt California Rules of Court and forms, as needed, to do all of the following: (1) Prescribe the proper use of pretrial risk assessment information by the court when making pretrial release and detention decisions that take into consideration the safety of the public and victims, the due process rights of the defendant, specific characteristics or needs of the defendant, and availability of local resources to effectively supervise individuals while maximizing efficiency. (2) Describe the elements of “validation,” address the necessity and frequency of validation of risk assessment tools on local populations, and address the identification and mitigation of any implicit bias in assessment instruments. "The proposals require that any risk assessment tools be transparent about the factors and algorithm used to decide a defendant’s risk, and mandates these tools be validated regularly. Tools that show any implicit or explicit bias must not be used, and cases involving intimate partner violence or sexual assault require specialized risk assessment." By eliminating the cash bail industry, you eliminate a powerful special interest. With the reporting requirements, amending the legislation seems easier than submitting a new proposition.
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Oct 1, 2020 04:12
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Jaxyon posted:https://noonprop25ca.com/ Yeah, that makes a lot more sense than "the algorithm might be worse than cash bail"
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Oct 1, 2020 04:13
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I honestly don't understand how you can look at this prop, that was put on the ballot BY THE BAIL INDUSTRY, and come to the conclusion that "yes, we need to restore cash bail and maybe in several years or also possibly never the legislature will come back and pass an even better bill." I seriously cannot comprehend the angle these orgs are approaching this from. Is the thought process that the legislature, after attempting to end cash bail and seeing their efforts completely stomped into dust, will come back bigger and braver to implement a better system? Why would they? Why not gut the bail industry, and then continue to lobby the legislature for reform but with one less multi-billion dollar corporate juggernaut opposing you from the other side? Edit: I can see something like "ok, bail is preserved by a narrow margin and the legislature decides to craft something that will get us, the important leftist orgs, on their side for the next fight" but it really feels like wishful thinking. Shooting this down now probably preserves cash bail for another 4-6 years, at least, and there's no guarantee that the political will for something better actually exists absent some big changes in the makeup of the Dem majorities. Wicked Them Beats fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Oct 1, 2020 |
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Oct 1, 2020 04:40
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eSporks posted:I'm actually really torn on prop 22, it does seem like drivers are in favor of staying independent contractors. Gig companies definitely suck, but there is a good benefit to being in charge of your own schedule and time. I'd like to see the solution be medi-cal for all, removing the connection between health insurance and employment. It's not odd they just don't want to talk about it or give their honest opinion because they're afraid if they say anything negative they will won't get five stars, or maybe they're afraid you're a plant or something because someone coming into your work and asking about your job satisfaction is pretty suspicious. The whole being in charge of your own schedule and freedom is rubbish the rideshares push to make it sound good, it's propaganda. Yeah, some drivers are just making money on the side but there's also the drivers who work 16 hours a day 7 days a week and they are the ones doing all the heavy lifting they are propping everything up and that's why we're voting no on this bullshit to protect those people. If they're working full time already there's no reason to not make them employees and there's absolutely no reason why they can't make it work for the people who only want to work a few hours a day either.
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Oct 1, 2020 04:44
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Jaxyon posted:I mean, feel free to check out that website, but I'm guessing "folks who work on justice reform every day" have a good idea of whether this is bad or not, rather than my 2nd hand reiteration of some notes I took. All of their non-soundbite stuff is off on the 'FAQ' tab if anyone else wants to dig into it. Expanding out how I understand their arguments: - They lump judges with law enforcement as wanting convictions. They think currently judges use high bail/denied bail as a lever to get guilty pleas and that Prop 25 will provide more socially acceptable cover for denying bail - Other places that do statistical risk for skipping court/committing crimes pretrial use things like past convictions, employment, housing status, etc.. that have racial divisions. Anything CA picks will probably use similar factors, even though no specific choice is mandated. - The probation department thing is that they think the restrictions on use-of-funds in Prop 25 will cause courts to put the new risk assessment service underneath police probation departments instead of using court employees or putting it under a non-police civil agency. Their desired alternative is to have anyone arrested of a nonserious crime immediately released pretrial, and all serious crimes have a hearing (presumably they'd also want those hearings to be faster than the current weekend+2days requirement*). It's similar to Prop 25 if you drew the Low-Medium line as triggered entirely by what crime was charged. Also a thing that doesn't seem realistic to me about having a new civil service agency that gets people to go to court, but somehow doesn't supervise or monitor them. * Don't get arrested on the Friday before a 3-day weekend after courts have closed
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Oct 1, 2020 05:06
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El Mero Mero posted:
quote:If the drivers pay it, they will be making money for each mile driven after accounting for full costs (depreciation, taxes, insurance, expenses, opportunity cost) but not much. Generally it's about $5-9 dollars an hour. Many uber drivers have crazy other costs too though, like special car lease loans with super high interest rates. In general, it is work for the bored/retired or desperate/cash-flow constricted. Usually they don't pay those taxes or insurance costs though. quote:So on the ground it is bad...but not obviously evil. From a policy perspective though gig platforms are a disaster. You have whole industries not paying into social security. You have whole industries threatening to hang out a workforce to self-insure (and thus under-insure for medical coverage.) You have whole industries leaving their states to chase every independent contractor down for a $2000 tax bill. quote:It's not wrong for Uber drivers to fear losing gig work if 22 goes against the platforms. It's totally possible. If I were cash-poor, stuck in a pay-day car loan and had bills on the horizon I would absolutely be worried when Uber tells me they'll cut my rides if 22 doesn't pass. That's on Uber though who are absolute fucks exploiting desperate people, refusing to pay their fair share, and dragging everyone in their industry down in the process. I think I just drank the kool-aid for a moment. My whole family is republican, and I'm also unemployed currently and feeling some doom about being able to find a job.
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Oct 1, 2020 17:28
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eSporks posted:I think I just drank the kool-aid for a moment. My whole family is republican, and I'm also unemployed currently and feeling some doom about being able to find a job. idk where you live but USPS is hiring, both seasonal and career right now and if you got something close it's real easy to get a job, come join us, pay's not great at start but it can possibly get you through for a few months anyway. https://about.usps.com/careers/search-apply/
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Oct 1, 2020 18:04
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