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SyntheticPolygon posted:I think you've watched too much Gundam if there's a system in a mecha show to make people better at piloting robots and you immediately assume "ah yes this is a clear analogy to psychic abilities" In the case of Gundam though "there are things that are Newtype but under a different name" is a straight-up established franchise thing. Like in the G Gen games only UC pilots have Newtype but Quatre has "He who senses the heart of space" and Mu and Kira has "Advanced Spatial Awareness" which all function exactly like the Newtype skill. (And in some games Mu just got straight-up Newtype). That's also discounting stuff like Innovator or X-Rounder which are Newtypes With Mild Differences. The A-V system is a clear standin for Newtypes in IBO but as with the rest of IBO it's framed in a way that makes it horrific. It is the special thing that allows child soldiers to fight unquestionably better on the battlefield, it is just that instead of it being a genetic quirk it's a horrifying surgery that leaves them potentially destroyed. (Which also was Cyber-Newtypes in a fashion.) It isn't exactly Newtype because the point of it wasn't to discuss psychic connections but to provide a more grim take on "this person is able to uniquely pilot a robot very well despite their age." It is as much Newtypes as McGillis is Char, in that it is taking a recognizable Gundam staple and then basically taking it one step darker and more pitiful.
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Sep 30, 2020 23:03
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I'm not sure that broad spectrum "is better at piloting" qualifies something as a newtype analogy. Without some manner of psychic element it's just captain america super soldier serum
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Sep 30, 2020 23:09
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When I take my adderall I become a newtype
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Sep 30, 2020 23:11
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Is the psycho reuse device in gundam thunderbolt a newtype analog?
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Sep 30, 2020 23:14
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ninjewtsu posted:I'm not sure that broad spectrum "is better at piloting" qualifies something as a newtype analogy. Without some manner of psychic element it's just captain america super soldier serum The A-V links to the pilot's brain to allow them to control it with their mind and merges them eventually with the machine they are piloting in disturbing ways (like Mika feeling like he has a tail). The psychic elements are tied to the 'a human mind being turned to the purpose of war.' This is something other Gundam shows touch on by doing similar things which basically all boil down to "isn't it utterly horrifying how war takes something as simple as your thoughts and ability to communicate and make those into a weapon?" The psychic element of Newtype is important because it represents the idea that humans can be something besides killers and murderers and the tragedy comes from it being twisted and broken. This is basically one of the solid constants of Gundam that people are twisted by war and it is extra tragic when something occurs that could reduce the need for war and it just gets turned into a new weapon. The psychic element is important in how it ties to communication more than how it ties to making things explode with your mind. There's a reason Lalah's entire thing was "she can communicate naturally with Amuro but is forced instead to use that same gift on weapons."
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Sep 30, 2020 23:19
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I uh... think you're doing that thing Cardias Vist talks about in Unicorn where you make "Newtype" synonymous with "Ace Pilot." Pilots with special powers are a long and storied trope in mecha anime, though I suppose Gundam's status as the common ancestor of all "real robot" shows gives its implementation a special weight. But I don't agree that diluting it away from the original 0079 concept of Newtypes is a valid reading. Newtypes are a specific type of person, and the Alaya-Vijnana or Zero systems are explicitly just combat enhancers. If anything, the idea that IBO has Newtypes and Wing doesn't predicated on these systems is backwards. Zero at least has the future-prediction part, if only through brute-force probability simulation. Newtypes, specifically, have to meet two criteria: 1) Enhanced ability to sense the thoughts and feelings of other people/Newtypes, even at a great distance 2) Supernatural temporal/spatial awareness not possible through normal senses
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Sep 30, 2020 23:20
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Warmachine posted:Newtypes, specifically, have to meet two criteria: Setting aside who decides what a Newtype has to be, the Zero System and Alaya-Vijnana both emulate that second point through technological means rather than spiritual means.
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Sep 30, 2020 23:23
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ninjewtsu posted:Is the psycho reuse device in gundam thunderbolt a newtype analog? It's explicitly an offshoot of psycommu research which is more invasive in order to be compatible with a broader range of spatial awareness talents, and ends up being used to amplify Newtype powers on a grand scale.
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Sep 30, 2020 23:23
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AV, SEED Mode, Being A Coordinator, and the Zero System all provide significant piloting boosts and being able to use them does isolate you from the rest of humanity, but they really don't share much of anything at all with newtypes thematically. Like you might as well start talking about how having a suit with a panoramic cockpit is a newtype analogue because it makes you more spatially aware and better at piloting.
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Sep 30, 2020 23:24
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Warmachine posted:I uh... think you're doing that thing Cardias Vist talks about in Unicorn where you make "Newtype" synonymous with "Ace Pilot." If that was the case then Innovators or X-Rounders wouldn't count because they have their own distinctive takes on the idea but absolutely nobody would object to the claim they are the 00/AGE versions of Newtypes. The only reason SEED would even be in doubt is because it has three different weird genetic things that theoretically should be used for ending war and which are instead twisted into causing war. Like frigging hell Coordinators are named Coordinators entirely because they were supposed to coordinate discussions. Focusing on "Newtypes have to be (x) and (y)" devalues the concept because the entire point of Newtypes isn't that they have hard and fast rules but that they represent a future potential twisted by the savage world of adults.
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Sep 30, 2020 23:25
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ImpAtom posted:If that was the case then Innovators or X-Rounders wouldn't count because they have their own distinctive takes on the idea but absolutely nobody would object to the claim they are the 00/AGE versions of Newtypes. The only reason SEED would even be in doubt is because it has three different weird genetic things that theoretically should be used for ending war and which are instead twisted into causing war. Like frigging hell Coordinators are named Coordinators entirely because they were supposed to coordinate discussions. Innovators are straight up thematic newtype expies in a way that no other AU besides X has really hit on. Literally the entire purpose of being a True Innovator is being able to understand, communicate, and empathize with others, and Louise Halevy being turned into an artificial innovator is a very clear analog to "cyber newtypes are created by monsters who are trying to harness newtypeism for combat", down to her having flashes of empathy and communication that weren't intended by her handlers like Four and Rosamia did.
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Sep 30, 2020 23:29
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ImpAtom posted:Coordinators are named Coordinators entirely because they were supposed to coordinate discussions. I didn't actually know this, so hey, thanks for the lore info. I still think SEED mode is closer to being CE's Newtype expy, while Coordinators are more of an expy for Spacenoids in general and the rift between living on Earth versus in space, how Earthnoids controlled Spacenoids but Spacenoids wanted independence etc. but SEED mode has even less in common with Newtypes really. It's not even something the show really actually engages with, beyond using it for "I fight better now", and the conflict between Naturals/Coordinators takes up far more of SEED's air than any potential SEED mode users have.
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Sep 30, 2020 23:33
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Kanos posted:Innovators are straight up thematic newtype expies in a way that no other AU besides X has really hit on. Literally the entire purpose of being a True Innovator is being able to understand, communicate, and empathize with others, and Louise Halevy being turned into an artificial innovator is a very clear analog to "cyber newtypes are created by monsters who are trying to harness newtypeism for combat", down to her having flashes of empathy and communication that weren't intended by her handlers like Four and Rosamia did. I can't disagree with this more. G Gundam doesn't say "Newtype" but it pretty bluntly uses the martial arts stylings of the story to cover the exact same concepts in a very different way. There is a reason "Fighters communicate with their fists", the Berserker system, and Domon beating Devil Gundam by talking to it are all parts of it. X-Rounders are so bluntly Newtypes they literally repeat the Lalah scene. I'll agree with you on SEED proper not touching Newtypes enough besides Rey/Rau/Mu stuff but X Astray has Prayer Reverie, the most Newtype Newtype to Every Newtype who is so insanely Newtype that he views the 'black flames of war' that were previously only a thing when Dozel died and in Tomino's novels. Coordinators however are a pretty blunt standin for a similar concept. (And SEED mode probably also would have been if they ever bothered to explore what the gently caress it was.) Wing has both the Zero System and Quatre's weird stuff though the former takes far more screentime than the latter. I think the only one you can argue not actually dealing with Newtypes is IBO and as I said I feel like the A-V system covers similar ground.
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Sep 30, 2020 23:35
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ImpAtom posted:I can't disagree with this more. G Gundam has a lot of "communicating with your fists", but it's typically framed as a adjustable state of mind, rather than something you are or you are not. In UC, you can't become a newtype or an oldtype by adjusting your frame of reference; in G Gundam, Rain comes to understand how the fighters think and communicate when she temporarily becomes a fighter herself and battles Allenby, and Domon's final battle with the Devil Gundam involves him having to abandon "communicating with his fists" to talk like a normal person for the first time in the show. It never really hits the same beats for me at all. Gundam AGE is so thematically garbage that they lift the entire Lalah scene and still pretty much completely fail to use X-Rounders for the rest of the series in a meaningful way beyond "it lets you use funnels and pilot well". Prayer is absolutely a UC-style newtype, but pointedly he and Rey in Destiny are the only two people in SEED who really seem to actually get into the weird mental melding empathy stuff that is very integral to newtypes for me. Rey only does so at the very end of the series(when he has his weird freakout moment with Kira). The rest of them are newtypes insofar as they get newtype flash effects and can use funnels. The Zero System doesn't really share anything with newtype stuff besides limited precognition, dispensing with the entirety of the pseudo-supernatural happenings and the empathy stuff. Quatre's "heart of space" stuff is interesting but goes pretty much unexplored; there could be something there but the show seems uninterested in exploring it.
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Oct 1, 2020 00:08
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Communicating with your fists absolutely does not hit the same beats as Newtypeness, that's exactly why Domon has to talk like a normal person in the finale, like Kanos says.
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Oct 1, 2020 00:17
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Domon communicating with his fists is because Domon is a nutter and has all sorts of mental problems, not because he's a G-newtype
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Oct 1, 2020 00:27
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:Domon communicating with his fists is because Domon is a nutter and has all sorts of mental problems, not because he's a G-newtype Nah, the other fighters do it too, but it's definitely portrayed as a "you wouldn't understand because you don't have the heart of a competitor" thing.
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Oct 1, 2020 00:38
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:Domon communicating with his fists is because Domon is a nutter and has all sorts of mental problems, not because he's a G-newtype Are you insane if you're doing something that's totally functional in your social circle? G Gundam has fighters be able to understand each other through combat, but it applies to all of them, not just Domon. It's not quite like Newtypes, but it is approaching the same themes of human communication because Gundam Fighters are able to know each other in a way 'normal' people can't. Thus Domon and Allenby's rapid romantic connection in contrast to Rain and Domon's slower, more awkward relationship. Meanwhile, Iron Blooded Orphans comes at the opposite angle. The AV system enhances piloting abilities, but it doesn't change how people communicate outside of combat, and it isn't shown as transcendent. Eugene is a totally normal guy. He just happens to have an edge when it comes to piloting. However, the dehumanizing aspects of cyber newtypes come up with Ein and Julieta's subplot, as well as Mika's. I'd hestitate to call them a newtype analogue, but (oddly enough) cyber newtype themes seem a pretty good reference point.
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Oct 1, 2020 00:48
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IBO's AV system has a lot to comment about though it's basically the opposite of newtypes in many ways. Not so much regressing as much as humanity surpassing its bounds through the physical realm, whereas newtypes tend to be mythologized as a mental and emotional change. Ironically cyber newtypes tend to have more powerful physiques as well. But there's also many downsides to the AV system and that's not even getting into the way society views even basic cybernetics. This thing that could, at minimum, improve some lives is demonized and left in a state where it's primarily useful as a weapon of war.
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Oct 1, 2020 00:56
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Domon never really has a romantic connection with Allenby. Allenby crushes on Domon, but he never really returns the relationship in the same way, and it's really, really easy to read her crush on him as developing because "man this guy treats me like a human being and a friend instead of a fight robot" rather than due to some mystical fighters-only connection.
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Oct 1, 2020 00:57
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Kanos posted:Domon never really has a romantic connection with Allenby. Allenby crushes on Domon, but he never really returns the relationship in the same way, and it's really, really easy to read her crush on him as developing because "man this guy treats me like a human being and a friend instead of a fight robot" rather than due to some mystical fighters-only connection. Except that their relationship (including most of the moments of clear romantic coding, like the double burning finger) is shown and developed through fights. Allenby and Domon are able to treat each other as human beings because they both think in the same way, and that way of thinking requires communicating with their fists. That's the basic barrier between Domon and Rain that has to be overcome.
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Oct 1, 2020 02:12
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One thing I very much loved in 0079 was the fact that nobody really 'knew' what a Newtype was, even if they subscribed to the belief in it. There's this really good scene with Revil I think just after Solomon, where he's talking with one of his Aides about the White Base, and he just says "Newtypes are supposedly people who can live without war. Not people with super-natural abilities." And yeah there's just... People don't "Know" what a newtype is, they're calling Amuro and the like Newtypes because frankly they haven't got a better word for it. Hilariously he says this just as he starts getting headaches and hearing Lalah's singing.
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Oct 1, 2020 02:50
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Zeon knew. And with Thunderbolt and other supplementary material, the Federation definitely knows.
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Oct 1, 2020 03:04
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Argas posted:Zeon knew. No, Zeon definitely didn't know. And poo poo written not by Tomino should not be an indication of anything. They have a guess as to what they are, and settled on the definition of "People expressing the same traits as Amuro or Lalah Sune" but like Revil literally says "Newtypes aren't supposed to be people with super powers."
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Oct 1, 2020 03:17
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I mean Zeon actually formed a newtype corps and actually developed tech to weaponize their newtype traits.
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Oct 1, 2020 03:19
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Argas posted:I mean Zeon actually formed a newtype corps and actually developed tech to weaponize their newtype traits. You're sorta missing the point.
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Oct 1, 2020 03:53
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Gaius Marius posted:You're sorta missing the point. Yeah, Zeon had a bit of a Newtype cargo cult going on, as seen with their absurd failure rates in the academies. They knew a little about how to get certain results, but they didn't know how to make Newtypes, or how to use them beyond funnels.
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Oct 1, 2020 04:04
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chiasaur11 posted:G Gundam has fighters be able to understand each other through combat, but it applies to all of them, not just Domon. It's not quite like Newtypes, but it is approaching the same themes of human communication because Gundam Fighters are able to know each other in a way 'normal' people can't. G Gundam has characters be able to understand each other through combat because it's an incredibly common trope in the genres it emulates (wuxia/martial arts/shounen battle stuff), not because it's a stand-in for newtype-ness.
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Oct 1, 2020 08:05
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https://twitter.com/pussyronin/status/1311724212831375360?s=20Lemon-Lime posted:G Gundam has characters be able to understand each other through combat because it's an incredibly common trope in the genres it emulates (wuxia/martial arts/shounen battle stuff), not because it's a stand-in for newtype-ness. why cant it be both
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Oct 1, 2020 18:53
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Onmi posted:One thing I very much loved in 0079 was the fact that nobody really 'knew' what a Newtype was, even if they subscribed to the belief in it. There's this really good scene with Revil I think just after Solomon, where he's talking with one of his Aides about the White Base, and he just says "Newtypes are supposedly people who can live without war. Not people with super-natural abilities." And yeah there's just... People don't "Know" what a newtype is, they're calling Amuro and the like Newtypes because frankly they haven't got a better word for it. There's also a scene connecting to that where Amuro talks about if he thinks he's a Newtype or not, and he says he doesn't know but he thinks maybe the entire White Base are Newtypes for having survived and overcome as much as they have. In universe the word "Newtype" is much more slippery than it is out of universe, and out of universe it's hard to pin down what a "Newtype" is with precision even given the vast amount of knowledge the viewer has of Universal Century. If there is a connection between the AV system and Newtypes (and I think there is) it's in the way it touches on the idea that's frequently flirted with about how people misunderstand or pigeonhole the idea of Newtypes and even smother it by seeing the Newtype phenomenon entirely in materialistic terms. There are numerous bits here and there that suggest that reading Newtype as "Ace pilot who can use funnels" is somehow a degradation of what a Newtype is or could be. As far back as the original Gundam Amuro's big final newtype moment that saves everyone has nothing at all to do with piloting the Gundam, and as recently as Narrative there are words to the effect that attempting reading a Newtype purely in terms of the Newtype magic it performs is missing the point and a dead end to understanding Newtypes. Gundam X does it too with "Category F Newtypes", where people with honest to goodness supernatural powers or perceptions are written off because they can't use a Flash System. Meanwhile we have Cyber Newtypes which are an attempt to replicate the physical characteristics of a Newtype and which we're meant to understand are the end result of grotesque and dehumanizing mad science, a horrible perversion of "real" Newtypes born out of understanding them solely in terms of the material world. The AV System is in the same category, it provides all the phenomenal abilities of a Newtype (capacity to pilot, ability to use remote weapons) without any of the supernatural or transcendent ideas that we see when a series goes way in on Newtypes. Newtypes have been shown the power to transcend time and death and cause miracles, and none of that is in the Alaya-Vinjana system which is purely a method to turn humans into weapons invented by the desperate and used in the modern day on children by the cruel or the opportunistic. Nothing of "Newtype as miracle" or "Newtype as a vision of future promise" exists in the Alaya-Vinjana, the AV implant is purely a weapon used for fighting and for war.
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Oct 1, 2020 19:06
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Omnicrom posted:There's also a scene connecting to that where Amuro talks about if he thinks he's a Newtype or not, and he says he doesn't know but he thinks maybe the entire White Base are Newtypes for having survived and overcome as much as they have. In universe the word "Newtype" is much more slippery than it is out of universe, and out of universe it's hard to pin down what a "Newtype" is with precision even given the vast amount of knowledge the viewer has of Universal Century. There are several lines in 0079 indicating that no-one knows what a Newtype really is, and are just projecting their own desires or ideas on to the name. When Char is talking with Lalah after Challia Bull dies he tells her to take it as a lesson, that Newtypes aren't invincible and maybe in reality Newtypes are just a sad mutation caused by war. Which doesn't actually seem to be an invalid reading, given how the majority of Newtypes we see are connected to conflict. Then, in the finale he tells Amuro that he only got his powers thanks to Lalah. Which, we know as an audience isn't true, but Char either wants to be true or is saying to hurt Amuro. There is also an additional bit of dialogue during the Hitler comparison scene between Degwin and Gihren where Gihren tells Degwin that they can wait for real Newtypes to emerge after they win the war, implying he doesn't believe that people like Challia and Lalah are real Newtypes.
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Oct 1, 2020 20:49
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the real newtypes are the friends we made along away (jengan pilots who gave their lives to slow axis's descent)
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Oct 1, 2020 21:30
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tsob posted:There are several lines in 0079 indicating that no-one knows what a Newtype really is, and are just projecting their own desires or ideas on to the name. When Char is talking with Lalah after Challia Bull dies he tells her to take it as a lesson, that Newtypes aren't invincible and maybe in reality Newtypes are just a sad mutation caused by war. Which doesn't actually seem to be an invalid reading, given how the majority of Newtypes we see are connected to conflict. Then, in the finale he tells Amuro that he only got his powers thanks to Lalah. Which, we know as an audience isn't true, but Char either wants to be true or is saying to hurt Amuro. There is also an additional bit of dialogue during the Hitler comparison scene between Degwin and Gihren where Gihren tells Degwin that they can wait for real Newtypes to emerge after they win the war, implying he doesn't believe that people like Challia and Lalah are real Newtypes. It's not even like that's gone away. More recently, in the Light of Life special, Amuro calls Gundam pilots "The humans closest to being Newtypes". The person we see who should know best what a Newtype is doesn't believe anyone fully qualifies.
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Oct 1, 2020 21:37
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Stairmaster posted:the real newtypes are the friends we made along away (jengan pilots who gave their lives to slow axis's descent) Except for that one poor bastard who survived Axis only to get a full blast of the Kshatriya's thrusters. He was no newtype, and even then he nearly had Marida.
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Oct 1, 2020 21:43
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He really didn't, and that scene always reads to me like Marida is intentionally handicapping herself and engaging the guy on his terms out of respect because otherwise there's really no reason she couldn't have ended him a lot quicker and easier, or at least opened up some space for her funnels to catch him using the dozen mega-particle cannons the Kshatriya has given he's rushing her in a straight line. It's also not like Marida is going to be unaware that her unit has an i-field. He did better than expected and was better than Marida in close combat, but he still wasn't close to ending her because she hadn't really used most of the Kshatriya's strength to fight him until she killed him and she knew she was relatively safe from hits all along anyway, given that she has an i-field.
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Oct 1, 2020 22:07
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The realest newtype is the guy in the byalrant in unicorn
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Oct 1, 2020 22:10
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Though i think some spinoff manga says that guy was ex-titans so gently caress that guy actually
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Oct 1, 2020 22:10
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Ex-Titans yep.
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Oct 1, 2020 22:16
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bring back yazan
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Oct 1, 2020 22:17
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Oct 1, 2020 22:19
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