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Wild that Fred Hampton left the BPP in 1969. Such schisms were eventually its downfall.
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Oct 15, 2018 22:39
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Even IWW founder Daniel De Leon called IWW a buncha bums.
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Oct 15, 2018 22:44
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Ruzihm posted:Even IWW founder Daniel De Leon called IWW a buncha bums. Yeah but that's a good thing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uKbIkYGsIg
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Oct 15, 2018 22:45
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big black turnout posted:This isn't even right. Haywood fled to the USSR while on bail for "violating the espionage act" as an IWW member Yes, you are right. I was listing out leadership that had left the IWW for various reasons, didn't mean to explicitly say they all left for the same reason. You had Debs who was imprisoned and then his health went south too, for example.
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Oct 15, 2018 22:46
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my stance on candidates like ben jealous is that i'm not gonna shittalk people for working for him but i'm not gonna endorse him or give him any of my own labor -- or vote to do either of those things. maybe that's too squishy but it works for me
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Oct 15, 2018 23:43
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my knowledge of socialism comes entirely from being a big history nerd and working at a gas station for near minimum wage, followed by a guy explaining what employee co-ops are and thats all ive needed.
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Oct 16, 2018 00:01
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Agean90 posted:my knowledge of socialism comes entirely from being a big history nerd and working at a gas station for near minimum wage, followed by a guy explaining what employee co-ops are and thats all ive needed.
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Oct 16, 2018 00:32
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Agean90 posted:my knowledge of socialism comes entirely from being a big history nerd and working at a gas station for near minimum wage, followed by a guy explaining what employee co-ops are and thats all ive needed.
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Oct 16, 2018 01:01
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looking forward to that gas station coop
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Oct 16, 2018 02:04
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but the pumps and payment are all automated
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Oct 16, 2018 02:05
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when i worked at a gas station we needed managers around to do basic crap like "remove items after they've been rung up" or when i worked in receiving at a hardware chain and one day the morning shift manager called in so it was only me and my fellow peons in and it changed literally nothing except we were all more relaxed without some dipshit who dropped out of boot camp power tripping at us or when i started doing field work for state governments and realized how nice it is to be treated like a goddamn adult and only deal with people higher up the pay ladder than i am like once every 2 months once trainings over no gods no mangers
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Oct 16, 2018 02:13
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Postoyevsky posted:from a debate on whether or not you should support Ben Jealous, a literal multimillionaire venture fund capitalist: Metiv? e: nailed it WhiskeyJuvenile has issued a correction as of 02:34 on Oct 16, 2018 |
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Oct 16, 2018 02:32
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Metiv? 
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Oct 16, 2018 02:39
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Metiv? yep. never interacted with her before today. the worms are strong with this one
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Oct 16, 2018 02:43
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I've met her a few times at chapter meetings, she's old school crunchy granola lib
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Oct 16, 2018 02:56
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:I've met her a few times at chapter meetings, she's old school crunchy granola lib wait are you in metro dsa
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Oct 16, 2018 02:58
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lmao
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Oct 16, 2018 02:59
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moco branch
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Oct 16, 2018 03:09
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:I've met her a few times at chapter meetings, she's old school crunchy granola lib yeah she's peak Takoma Park Liberal© weird how she recognizes all form of privilege except for uh, the ones she very clearly exhibits 
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Oct 16, 2018 03:10
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Business Gorillas posted:IIRC the Ohio Organizing Collaborative is doing a lot with this. Send me a DM with where you're at in the state and I'll get you some contacts you can reach out to I don't have DM's, but should be safe to say I'm 20min south of Akron. That's the closet city with a DSA chapter near me too. Had a real nice chat with their canvassers at Pride but unfortunately all their meetings are while I'm working.
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Oct 16, 2018 03:17
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Postoyevsky posted:yeah she's peak Takoma Park Liberal© She actually lives in Wheaton tho iirc
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Oct 16, 2018 03:47
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Yadoppsi posted:I don't have DM's, but should be safe to say I'm 20min south of Akron. That's the closet city with a DSA chapter near me too. Had a real nice chat with their canvassers at Pride but unfortunately all their meetings are while I'm working. if you don't have dm's i can't really help without posting personal information the ohio organizing collab's office number can be found here: http://ohorganizing.org/contact/. call in and if they don't need you, they'll know someone that does
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Oct 16, 2018 04:16
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Agean90 posted:when i worked at a gas station we needed managers around to do basic crap like "remove items after they've been rung up" i went public sector a couple of months back and i have an intern now, who constantly asks me if she can change her schedule by 5-7 minutes each day. i sat her down today and told her "you're an adult, and when we don't have anything going on, your time is your own. if you wanna spend some time on the clock doing homework or bettering yourself, that's your call." i never really realized it before i got the intern but holy poo poo, the traditional work hierarchy straight up breaks people down and turns them into machine parts 
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Oct 16, 2018 04:23
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:She actually lives in Wheaton tho iirc hosed up
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Oct 16, 2018 04:27
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Postoyevsky posted:it's an ineffective ideology that is based on idealism. it's not rooted in materialism and ignores the fact that the state exists to mitigate class antagonisms. getting rid of the state won't somehow fix class conflict. Anarchists view the state as the mechanism for class rule, rather than as something born out of class conflict. There will always be class conflict as long as class exists, which is why the dictatorship of the proletariat is necessary. Lenin was right, basically. Honest question: What class conflict has been born without a state being utilized as an mechanism to propagate or enforce it?
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Oct 16, 2018 06:17
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HiHo ChiRho posted:Honest question: What class conflict has been born without a state being utilized as an mechanism to propagate or enforce it? The state exists because of class conflict. So yes, the state is by design the enforcement mechanism of one class over another. Anarchists generally believe that abolishing the state will end class conflict, while MLs believe you must utilize a (new) state to end class conflict, and only as class distinctions erode can the state began to disappear.
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Oct 16, 2018 06:46
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Postoyevsky posted:The state exists because of class conflict. So yes, the state is by design the enforcement mechanism of one class over another. as a slight clarification, i assume you’d also agree that the state serves as a means to handle intra class conflict among dominant class members [i really need to go back and read the state and revolution, because (especially if you have elements of a planned or centralized economy, but also for more mundane matters like regulating, e.g., track gauge uniformity and dealing with black marketeers and violent crime) it seems like even without widespread exploitation and uneven property distribution, there would be a fairly heavy demand for state functions]
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Oct 16, 2018 13:22
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HiHo ChiRho posted:Honest question: What class conflict has been born without a state being utilized as an mechanism to propagate or enforce it? Look at the history of the Icelandic Commonwealth, 870-1262. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_Commonwealth quote:According to the libertarian theorist David D. Friedman, "Medieval Icelandic institutions have several peculiar and interesting characteristics; they might almost have been invented by a mad economist to test the lengths to which market systems could supplant government in its most fundamental functions."[23] While not directly labeling it anarcho-capitalist, he argues that the legal system came close to being a real-world anarcho-capitalist legal system[24] – while there was a single legal system, enforcement of law was entirely private and highly capitalist; and so provides some evidence of how such a society would function. "Even where the Icelandic legal system recognized an essentially "public" offense, it dealt with it by giving some individual (in some cases chosen by lot from those affected) the right to pursue the case and collect the resulting fine, thus fitting it into an essentially private system."[23] Commenting on its political structure, libertarian scholar Roderick Long remarks: Basically, for about 400 years Iceland tried to go full on anarcho-capitalist with completely privatized courts, etc.; it worked about as horribly as you'd expect and eventually they all gave the gently caress up and swore fealty to the Norwegian king because even monarchy was better than that bullshit. It's a very worthwhile study because it's the only instance I'm aware of in world history where an-cap was actually tried, and it *did not* work, for all the reasons you'd expect. Hieronymous Alloy has issued a correction as of 13:36 on Oct 16, 2018 |
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Oct 16, 2018 13:23
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Nude Hoxha Cameo posted:as a slight clarification, i assume you’d also agree that the state serves as a means to handle intra class conflict among dominant class members Sure. There's also, obviously, conflict between states that serves as a method of "handling" bourgeois class interests (war, trade disputes, etc).
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Oct 16, 2018 15:45
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so for a thread about an org that's ostensibly supposed to be "big tent" and help push for socialism, y'all are some of the most Extremely Online sectarian people i've seen, lmao i've not met a single self-described anarchist or libertarian socialist who hasn't incorporated class struggle into their ideology. anarchism isn't allergic to hierarchies. i consider myself to lean pretty anarchist and i really can't see a way for us to live in a world that doesn't have some degree of hierarchy and structure because it's kind of necessary to at least some small degree to allow for facilitation of decision-making and easier distribution of resources. anarchism is inherently suspicious because of course you should be suspicious of hierarchies and structures, they invariably lead to one group being lifted up above others and that poo poo needs to be stamped down with extreme prejudice when it happens. like, i consider basically everyone who fights alongside me to be comrades. it's pretty hilarious that you're way more interested in making enemies of them instead. also, anarchism is literally the end goal of communism. a stateless, classless society. you're literally demonizing a group because of your hatred of a constructed strawman of their tendency.
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Oct 16, 2018 15:58
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Syndlig posted:so for a thread about an org that's ostensibly supposed to be "big tent" and help push for socialism, y'all are some of the most Extremely Online sectarian people i've seen, lmao
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Oct 16, 2018 16:00
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Syndlig posted:so for a thread about an org that's ostensibly supposed to be "big tent" and help push for socialism, y'all are some of the most Extremely Online sectarian people i've seen, lmao
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Oct 16, 2018 16:05
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i'm actually more suspicious of groups that claim to have no hierarchies but mysteriously have a clique of people (or one person if it's a cult of personality) whose ideas get implemented time and time again while everyone outside of that small circle gets sidelined - which is what every nonhierarchical group I've seen has ever been like.
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Oct 16, 2018 16:16
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HiHo ChiRho posted:Honest question: What class conflict has been born without a state being utilized as an mechanism to propagate or enforce it?
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Oct 16, 2018 16:20
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Impermanent posted:i'm actually more suspicious of groups that claim to have no hierarchies but mysteriously have a clique of people (or one person if it's a cult of personality) whose ideas get implemented time and time again while everyone outside of that small circle gets sidelined - which is what every nonhierarchical group I've seen has ever been like. You, a stupid, anarchist wrecker: "anarchism doesn't mean no hierarchies" Me, a genius paragon of left unity: "I'm suspicious of groups that say no hierarchies such as anarchism"
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Oct 16, 2018 16:21
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Halloween Jack posted:This is confusing, because I understand class conflict as a constant state of affairs comprising a set of unequal relations among people, rather than a set of historical events. Anyway, there have been peasant revolts without anything analogous to a revolutionary vanguard party, that were also not just the maneuvering of one set of elites against another. No, you see, you absolutely need a bourgeois led vanguard that totally won't kill you after the revolution. Can you really trust the working class with creating their destiny? They're basically barbarians and would just kill each other if left to their own devices. 
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Oct 16, 2018 16:24
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Look at the history of the Icelandic Commonwealth, 870-1262. It's extremely anachronistic to describe medieval Iceland as capitalist, anarcho- or otherwise. Friedman's characterization of Icelandic law is also very misleading and relies on an understanding of the public vs private distinction that is not applicable in Iceland or any other pre-modern society. He's projecting his modern libertarian ideology back onto a historical society where it doesn't fit at all. Medieval Iceland isn't a stateless utopia but we shouldn't take lunatic libertarians grasping at straws for some historical precedent for their deranged ideas at their word.
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Oct 16, 2018 16:26
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The Ghoul posted:No, you see, you absolutely need a bourgeois led vanguard that totally won't kill you after the revolution. Can you really trust the working class with creating their destiny? They're basically barbarians and would just kill each other if left to their own devices. Kronstadt owned nerd
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Oct 16, 2018 16:28
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Syndlig posted:so for a thread about an org that's ostensibly supposed to be "big tent" and help push for socialism, y'all are some of the most Extremely Online sectarian people i've seen, lmao This is all true, and while I wouldn't count myself as an anarchist, I do find that that tendency is one of the most necessary in the org because of what it's suspicious of and watches out for. It really keeps the org more open, honest, and democratic. And if you're talking about me being Extremely Online because I hate jacobins...then sign me up for netzero, pal
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Oct 16, 2018 16:28
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Postoyevsky posted:Kronstadt owned nerd wasnt that like the muppet treasure island of the russian revolution
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Oct 16, 2018 16:29
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