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lol what the gently caress
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Sep 11, 2015 10:45
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A link to vote for her webcomic to win an award, over the top of the comic. This is where I stop reading. Anyone feel like joining me?
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Sep 11, 2015 11:40
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hm
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Sep 11, 2015 11:58
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i won't deny most of my goodwill's been squandered
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Sep 11, 2015 12:00
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Say Nothing posted:A link to vote for her webcomic to win an award, over the top of the comic. Yeah. I'm done. I enjoyed this quite a bit early on but its a loving mess now
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Sep 11, 2015 12:48
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I won't say that the system isn't corrupt, or that some rapists don't go free, or that false accusations rival in numbers true accusations, but literally HOW do you go out of your way to make 100% absolutely sure in these cases? Unless it was recorded, unless she was there, unless someone admitted to it, she has no more or less way to be sure than anybody else. I'm just. If this doesn't wrap up with "Mary, you ARE a super villain" I'm going to be sorely disappointed.
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Sep 11, 2015 13:25
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Say Nothing posted:A link to vote for her webcomic to win an award, over the top of the comic. Yeah. What a hot mess.
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Sep 11, 2015 13:46
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Mikl posted:She says she went out of her way to only kill only those who are actually guilty, and apparently that includes men who were accused of rape and later had charges dropped, or went to court and were found not guilty. I agree that there are way too many people who have gotten away with rape, but there are also people who were wrongly accused of rape and were later (rightly) found not guilty. If she went after those who were accused and then acquitted, even doing perfect detective work and forcing a confession (more on this later) there is no loving way she didn't kill at least one or two innocent people. This is pretty much exactly what Alison's response ought to be. The problem is, it's very hard for her to make that argument, because, as has been pointed out a few times, she quite literally killed people as a superhero and even a post-superhero because she knew they did bad things. We might see a difference (especially insofar as Alison only acted the way she did out of necessity or, in the case of Feral's attempted assassin, a momentary excess of emotion), but it's a lot thinner ice than you'd like to be on while taking a moral stand on something.
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Sep 11, 2015 13:57
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Putting a vote button over a dialog balloon is incredibly lovely and I think this is generally a bad way to end a chapter which collapsed in on itself a while ago. Still, I can't fully agree with a lot of the criticism I'm seeing here for three reasons. One, it's pretty easy to see where Mary is coming from as a character. Two, her beliefs aren't that ridiculous in the real world context. Three, I don't see much of a reason to believe that the author is endorsing these views. 1) Mary was a child soldier raised by her government to solve problems with violence. Then (and this is kind of reading between the lines), she was sexually assaulted and her government completely failed to bring her assailant to justice. Around the same time, the government started having her use violence to solve the "problem" of poor people using drugs. With all that, it totally makes sense that she would become a vigilante for a cause she considers righteous. It would also make sense that she would go to great lengths to preserve her self-image as a good guy, though I agree that she is clearly not. 2) Mary's beliefs, while extreme, are not cartoonish. There were people in this very thread who stood behind her earlier in the chapter. When I said that vigilante serial killing was bad, someone said that I must also have been against slave rebellions. There are people who genuinely believe that the conditions faced by contemporary American women and 19th century slaves are comparable. It is clearly the case that rape accusations are not taken seriously enough by society, but there are people who have responded to that by ideologically binding themselves to believe every accusation. Given that, I can accept that Moonshadow would take an accusation and some sleuthing as iron clad proof. Moonshadow is not the first character whose beliefs have been deemed unrealistic or completely unreasonable despite the fact that many in the real world believe similar things. Furnace and Patrick also didn't really say anything I haven't seen online before. 3) I've seen several people talking as if the comic wholeheartedly endorses Alison and thinks she can do no wrong. I don't think that's true for her. When Alison got offended by someone saying, "getting black out drunk alone at a party is dangerous," her position was immediately undercut by the people she was talking to. Her self-righteous rebuttal to Patrick was immediately undercut by his gluing together of the mug. I think the comic agrees with Alison's attitude of wanting to fix the world, but it doesn't endorse her fully. Similarly with Moonshadow, the comic strongly agrees with her about the problem but probably disagrees about her approach. tl;dr: This chapter is a structural mess with facepalm worthy execution at points, but the ideas behind it aren't bad at all. At this point, I can totally understand giving up on it though. 
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Sep 11, 2015 14:26
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Well said. Honestly, if you're not feeling the comic, yeah, just stop reading it here, because hate-reading comics is kind of a dumb waste of time. Tell you what, if you remember, come back to this thread in three or four months and we'll be able to tell you if the next issue takes an upswing. (I can't imagine there are more than a couple of weeks left in the current issue.)
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Sep 11, 2015 14:44
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im pretty sure the vote thing being on top of the comic is a mistake
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Sep 11, 2015 14:46
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I don't know if it was fixed, but the vote link shows up below the comic for me with no overlap. If it wasn't fixed, maybe it is just poor formatting that is making it appear in dumb places. I wouldn't assume that it is intentionally lovely positioning.
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Sep 11, 2015 14:50
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The vote button thing was a small mistake due to this weeks strip running a little taller than usual and was quickly fixed. It's not a big deal, or even a deal at all. You really don't need to reach this hard to find things to hate about this comic.
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Sep 11, 2015 14:56
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I think the thing that really undermines this page is how everyone Allison has talked to has been either ambivalent or fully supporting Mary, which sort of murders all of the tension: accidentally at best but at worst the authour is trying to pull a "silent majority" kind of thing (I think it's the former though). The guidance counsellor (which is kind of weird in retrospect, since he would probably be wary of roving supers), Patrick, the Doctor (and that goddamn terrible "here are some statistics  page), really the only people against crazed vigilantism have been Allison and Furnace (RIP, you were too good for this comic, more on that later), which really cuts down on the impact because the only people who seem to be against someone we're told everyone is against have been the strawman and the character who is completely spiritually lost. It makes Mary come across less as a wounded soul doing the right thing the wrong way and more of a stabby-Batman who broods a lot but ultimately is pretty loved.
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Sep 11, 2015 15:37
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Furnace Lives
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Sep 11, 2015 15:41
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Say Nothing posted:A link to vote for her webcomic to win an award, over the top of the comic. I still really like the idea behind this webcomic. But it no longer grabs me, or even has anything which interests me anymore. Yeah, time to delete my bookmark and move on.
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Sep 11, 2015 17:10
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Gorilla Salad posted:I still really like the idea behind this webcomic. But it no longer grabs me, or even has anything which interests me anymore. I really liked the idea when it started. Alison wasn't the end-all be-all "I'm right" protagonist. Others argue with her and bring up good points ("Yeah it's easy for YOU to advocate pushing for less worrying about our own safety. YOU'RE invulnerable. The rest of us have to be careful regardless of what we teach people"), and there were some great moments that drive home how silly being a "superhero" can be sometimes (a punch-drunk unstoppable tank trying to rebuild a busted playground with no knowledge of building ANYTHING). But now it just feels like this whole arc has been one long "WE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO KILL RAPISTS, Y'ALL" to pat Mary on the back and I feel like it's gone from taking a stand that "things are complex, it's not always black and white" to "I'M RIGHT LISTEN TO ME I KNOW MORE THAN YOU" EDIT: Which makes Mary's actions all the more baffling. It feels like she was made into less of the straight-up villain halfway through. She slashes an innocent persons femoral artery to get away, kills a bunch of random hired mercenaries (yes, literally all of these hired guns is a rapist. I checked), kidnaps and drugs someone and straps a bomb to his chest and THEN insists she was only gonna kill him IF he was guilty? That's my big problem is that no one is treating this like a drastic disconnect and something to be concerned about so it's not like they're playing Mary off as somehow unwell or something. Classtoise fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Sep 11, 2015 |
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Sep 11, 2015 17:58
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I think it's more a matter of the artist not feeling like the normal standpoint of "justice shouldn't be handed out via invisible lunatic murders" needed to be spelled out, so nobody really takes that POV in the story. Unfortunately, the arguments for "well nobody else was handing out justice, apparently" and "ultimately invisible murderers are a statistical blip and anything you do about it will just make the real problems worse" were sufficiently interesting that in retrospect it turns out the chapter feels off-balance without it.
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Sep 11, 2015 18:19
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Classtoise posted:I really liked the idea when it started. Alison wasn't the end-all be-all "I'm right" protagonist. Others argue with her and bring up good points ("Yeah it's easy for YOU to advocate pushing for less worrying about our own safety. YOU'RE invulnerable. The rest of us have to be careful regardless of what we teach people"), and there were some great moments that drive home how silly being a "superhero" can be sometimes (a punch-drunk unstoppable tank trying to rebuild a busted playground with no knowledge of building ANYTHING). So what you're saying the comic says is, Alison is always right, and the person who Alison was trying to stop was also right? I still don't get where people are getting "Alison can do no wrong" from. I don't think anyone has agreed with anything she's said all chapter. Tenebrais fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Sep 11, 2015 |
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Sep 11, 2015 19:33
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Tenebrais posted:I don't think anyone has agreed with anything she's said all chapter.
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Sep 11, 2015 21:43
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Rei_ posted:Her plan was that he'd realize he was wired to explode before trying to set himself on fire, so she could get him to confess via gopro to doing a crime she is assuming he's done, because he's a misogynist rear end in a top hat so he must have done SOMETHING? She's basically kidnapped a reddit commenter So you missed the whole part where the super powered teenaged demi-God of flames threatened to literally burn alive any woman who accused a man of rape. Yeah he's just your garden verity MRA gang move along nothing to see here. I really don't get this thread Na'at fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Sep 11, 2015 |
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Sep 11, 2015 22:19
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Na'at posted:So you missed the whole part where the super powered teenaged demi-God of flames threatened to literally burn alive any woman who accused a man of rape. He threatened to kill women who accused a man of rape while the Invisible Slasher was at large under the premise that if they made an accusation and the Invisible slasher killed them they'd be accessory to murder, and he's not strictly speaking wrong, just an rear end in a top hat about it, and also having a bit of a everything looks like a nail problem.
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Sep 11, 2015 22:40
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Oh gotcha, since something bad might happen to the accused rapists he wasn't wrong just being an rear end in a top hat. Well I guess he's just a misunderstood hero looking out for the legions of falsely accused men out there
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Sep 11, 2015 22:54
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Murder is a crime even when the victims are rapists, and asking someone to commit murder is accessory to murder or conspiracy to commit or even murder itself depending on the exact jurisdiction. So while the Invisible slasher was known to be at large, making an accusation WAS risking whoever you accused getting murdered, and making the accusation anyway does kind of make you be asking the Invisible slasher to murder someone.
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Sep 11, 2015 23:08
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Well, I'll give it a page or two before I assume the comic is telling us that Moonshadow is right. I'm just going to take these as the delusional ramblings of a serial killer.
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Sep 11, 2015 23:25
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reignonyourparade posted:Murder is a crime even when the victims are rapists, and asking someone to commit murder is accessory to murder or conspiracy to commit or even murder itself depending on the exact jurisdiction. So while the Invisible slasher was known to be at large, making an accusation WAS risking whoever you accused getting murdered, and making the accusation anyway does kind of make you be asking the Invisible slasher to murder someone. Anyway Allison's gonna be all "gee golly Moonshadow you're right rape culture is bad" and let her go and I'm going to laugh and laugh and probably stop reading this lovely stupid comic.
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Sep 11, 2015 23:28
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The strawman lit himself on fire one last time.
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Sep 11, 2015 23:44
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Na'at posted:So you missed the whole part where the super powered teenaged demi-God of flames threatened to literally burn alive any woman who accused a man of rape. Are you seriously disappointed that people aren't hating an obvious strawman with the same righteous indignation you are?
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Sep 11, 2015 23:55
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Jackard posted:Furnace Lives
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Sep 11, 2015 23:56
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Furnace did nothing wrong.
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Sep 12, 2015 01:39
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ManlyGrunting posted:Furnace did nothing wrong. No, see, they were legal immigrants!
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Sep 12, 2015 02:05
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The thing about deciding to murder people for alleged crimes sans any real judicial review is that capital punishment is the most severe punishment in existence and many people debate whether it should even be used [i]ever[/i. It refuses any theoretical rehabilitation, insisting that once a crime has been committed, that person is the worst forever and should not be allowed to survive another day on this earth. And it's not just rapists Mary has been murdering, the chapter started out with her killing a man for beating his wife, when that would be solvable with some jail time. And really, if anyone did believe that rapists don't need a trial and should be quickly slaughtered, there used to be a time when people accused of rape and the like were quickly dealt with in the same manner, only half the time they were really denied trials because they were black/vagrants/any other form of social outsider. There's a reason that vigilantes aren't really well-liked in the real world. The way this comic is trying to play off mass murder as ethically ambiguous is just so loving frustrating, especially when Mary's contingency plan to make sure that she's getting a real rapist is to assault a potentially innocent man and pump him full of drugs, you know, like what a rapist does.
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Sep 12, 2015 03:08
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Sure she executed people, including minors, without trial and took perverse glee in their deaths, but she was noble all along.
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Sep 12, 2015 04:07
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To be entirely fair to the comic, there is kind of a pattern of Alison sort of quietly letting whoever rant at her, before she says anything back. Much like with Patrick's super childish rant about how lives don't matter or whatever. We've been getting a lot of Mary justifying herself, and I'm suspecting that Alison is going to have a response for her soon, and while she understand why Mary is doing what she's doing, she has been consistently against Mary's methods, so I doubt it's going to be a positive response. Don't get me wrong, the tone at the moment is very much a Mary Did Nothing Wrong one, but so too was Patrick's rant bookended with a heavy Pat Is Always Right tone. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it can't possibly go that way. Just that there is kind of a pattern here, so maybe jumping to conclusions is just a tad hasty. Especially considering this whole Mary thing is riding the coattails of Patrick's "So you're a fan of slavery?" speech. I doubt Alison is going to walk away from that, and enter into a situation where Mary is to rapists what metaphorical time-traveling Alison is to Hitler, and not remember or apply anything Patrick said. Doubly especially that part about how they could judge every human on Earth for potential livability, and never come anywhere near close enough to accomplishing their goal of making the world a better place. On another note, I'm pretty sure Furnace is going to survive. A lot of this chapter has been about how these heroes are discovering new powers or a greater application of them. Not to mention that, just before he exploded the drat dam, he was talking about how getting hotter is becoming easier than ever, but he's losing control. Chances are he's going to be hot enough to melt the concrete, evaporate the water, and then come exploding out there with the white hot intensity of the sun. Which will likely be just in time for Alison to go Super Mommy on him, and tell him to get help. Which has kind of been her whole goal this whole chapter.
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Sep 12, 2015 04:51
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Yeah, a lot for me depends on what Allison's reaction to all of this is. As people have said, and as Moonshadow herself kind of points out, Allison's moral ground here is not nearly as solid as she would like it to be, but if she is at all convinced that Moonshadow is vindicated, just... ugh.
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Sep 12, 2015 04:54
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SlothfulCobra posted:The way this comic is trying to play off mass murder as ethically ambiguous is just so loving frustrating, especially when Mary's contingency plan to make sure that she's getting a real rapist is to assault a potentially innocent man and pump him full of drugs, you know, like what a rapist does. Hold him down and stick your long, hard, knife inside him slowly Mary. You go girl!
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Sep 12, 2015 06:48
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Na'at posted:So you missed the whole part where the super powered teenaged demi-God of flames threatened to literally burn alive any woman who accused a man of rape. he already said he'd do that on television, the camera and the truth serum imply he's done some other crime that needs to be confessed to. Like the proof of him saying he'd do the awful thing already exists, being broadcast to a national audience. Everyone KNOWS this dude would murder someone at the drop of a hat, the superhero community KNOWS he's a loose cannon with poor judgement and lovely abusive values. It's not the morals, it's the WHAT THE gently caress IS HAPPENING. I don't care whether or not the character does or does not die i care that the actions in the story are making sense? What is he CONFESSING TO? "Yes, I'm a piece of poo poo"? That's a character judgement, which would be FINE if she was killing people who were SAYING poo poo, but she ISNT? like god damnit? Like if this was the thing at the centre of THIS chapter you just ICE the loving dude and be like "I was killing him before he followed up on his threat" and like jesus christ he's the loving Subhuman Torch who made a death threat on national television practically any woman on the planet could gangland him with a super soaker and walk away from charges Like the ONLY thing i could think of at this point is if the last panel implies she's about to uncloak a bunch of women who that dude had hurt and he was actually directly threatening with that news broadcast? That would fix THIS problem because it would explain what the gently caress was going on, but it doesnt fix the fact that this chapter was a drawn out, blurry, confusing mess? Rei_ fucked around with this message at 08:37 on Sep 12, 2015 |
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Sep 12, 2015 08:18
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Rei_ posted:like god damnit? Like if this was the thing at the centre of THIS chapter you just ICE the loving dude and be like "I was killing him before he followed up on his threat" and like jesus christ he's the loving Subhuman Torch who made a death threat on national television practically any woman on the planet could gangland him with a super soaker and walk away from charges
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Sep 12, 2015 08:36
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Pretty sure it was all because she assumed that he also must be an actual rapist. 50/50 on if this is revealed to be the case, considering party guy was revealed to be one and not just some drunk rear end in a top hat.
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Sep 12, 2015 08:49
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It would just be such a WEIRD thing to introduce during the (GOD WHAT I HOPE IS) falling action of this chapter and not, you know, a month ago, when all that tension was happening this is like a bad scooby doo movie where they unmask the groundskeeper after the big chase but then like oh no, the Headless Hash Slinging Slasher was totally real because ghosts and magic are real and Velma's like hold up we need to unpack th- CREDITS Rei_ fucked around with this message at 09:10 on Sep 12, 2015 |
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Sep 12, 2015 09:06
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