Let's Read: "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality"

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Let's Read: "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality"

«‹›100 »

Pvt.Scott: Feb 16, 2007; What God wants, God gets, God help us all

Xander77 posted:

Which is one way to summarize HPMOR "morality" in one sentence. I mean, obviously, creating a slave race is evil, but what on earth is wrong with contiuing to base the wizarding world economy on their services? They've already been created to enjoy slavery, after all.

That would depend entirely on the nature of the slave race and whether or not it was actually able to exist outside of servitude. House elves can be released and live their own lives, so that's the ethical choice here, so it's a dumb example to use. If releasing house elves caused constant pain or wasting disease until they were bound to a new master or perhaps termination of service killed them outright, the ethics would get kinda murky. If house elves were a naturally occurring symbiotic species (in a magical sense), would denying them their natural state of servitude be ethical?

# ? May 8, 2017 17:01

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 6, 2024 10:04

blastron: Dec 11, 2007; Don't doodle on it!

If I recall correctly (it's been years since I read the books) Dobby was very much an exception when it came to house elves wanting or adapting to freedom. The other elf that got freed (Winky?) flew into a depressive spiral and became an alcoholic, and all of the other house elves reacted to the thought of freedom negatively.

At the same time, we can look historically back and see that there were slaves and other bottom-caste people who were perfectly fine with being the lowest of the low, because that's just the way things were. We can look from the outside and say that these people's lives would have been objectively better if they weren't slaves, but they'd been conditioned to think that this is how things should be and that other ideas are wrong.

We actually don't explicitly know from the text itself if house elves are naturally servile, if they were enslaved so long ago that they can't remember freedom, or if they were engineered (or bred) for their purpose. These all have different ethical implications, and I'm sure some turbonerd has written an essay thoughtfully exploring the ethics of house elves, but HPMOR is not the kind of work where you get thoughtful explorations of interesting setting details. ...Despite, you know, ostensibly being entirely about exploring the HP setting rationally.

# ? May 8, 2017 17:22

Pvt.Scott: Feb 16, 2007; What God wants, God gets, God help us all

blastron posted:

If I recall correctly (it's been years since I read the books) Dobby was very much an exception when it came to house elves wanting or adapting to freedom. The other elf that got freed (Winky?) flew into a depressive spiral and became an alcoholic, and all of the other house elves reacted to the thought of freedom negatively.

At the same time, we can look historically back and see that there were slaves and other bottom-caste people who were perfectly fine with being the lowest of the low, because that's just the way things were. We can look from the outside and say that these people's lives would have been objectively better if they weren't slaves, but they'd been conditioned to think that this is how things should be and that other ideas are wrong.

We actually don't explicitly know from the text itself if house elves are naturally servile, if they were enslaved so long ago that they can't remember freedom, or if they were engineered (or bred) for their purpose. These all have different ethical implications, and I'm sure some turbonerd has written an essay thoughtfully exploring the ethics of house elves, but HPMOR is not the kind of work where you get thoughtful explorations of interesting setting details. ...Despite, you know, ostensibly being entirely about exploring the HP setting rationally.

HPMOR failed at exploring the HP setting rationally before the project started by choosing to be based on purely secondary and tertiary sources when the primary source was readily available and already heavily analyzed. It's almost as if Yud set off as a petulant child might, claiming that he could do just as good a job as those other ~~scientists~~ books by the original author without ~~their help~~ actually referencing them. It's pretty funny at what a giant, masturbatory exercise the whole AI HPMOR thing is.

# ? May 8, 2017 18:19

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Chapter 43: Humanism, Pt 1

Harry is trying to cast a Patronus charm under Lupin's tutelage.

quote:

The early gestures of the spell were complex and precise; you twitched your wand once, twice, thrice, and four times with small tilts at exactly the right relative angles, you shifted your forefinger and thumb exactly the right distances...

The Ministry thought this meant it was futile to try and teach anyone the spell before their fifth year. There had been a few known cases of younger children learning it, and this had been dismissed as "genius".

It might not have been a very polite way of putting it, but Harry was beginning to see why Professor Quirrell had claimed that the Ministry Committee of Curriculum would have been of greater benefit to wizardkind if they had been used as landfill.

And... Harry fails.

quote:

What did Anthony Goldstein have inside him that Harry didn't, that made Anthony's wand shine with that bright light?

Did Anthony love his own father more?

"What thought were you using to cast it?" said Remus.

"My father," Harry said, his voice trembling. "I asked him to buy me some books before I came to Hogwarts, and he did, and they were expensive, and then he asked me if they were enough -"

Harry didn't try to explain about the Verres family motto.

"Take a rest before you try a different thought, Harry," said Remus. He gestured toward where some other students were sitting on the ground, looking disappointed or embarrassed or regretful. "You won't be able to cast a Patronus Charm while you're feeling ashamed of not being grateful enough." There was a gentle compassion in Mr. Lupin's voice, and for a moment, Harry felt like hitting something.

Hermione has also failed.

quote:

"It doesn't mean we're going to be Dark Wizards," said Harry. "Lots of people who can't cast the Patronus Charm aren't Dark Wizards. Godric Gryffindor wasn't a Dark Wizard..."

Godric had defeated Dark Lords, fought to protect commoners from Noble Houses and Muggles from wizards. He'd had many fine friends and true, and lost no more than half of them in one good cause or another. He'd listened to the screams of the wounded, in the armies he'd raised to defend the innocent; young wizards of courage had rallied to his calls, and he'd buried them afterward. Until finally, when his wizardry had only just begun to fail him in his old age, he'd brought together the three other most powerful wizards of his era to raise Hogwarts from the bare ground; the one great accomplishment to Godric's name that wasn't about war, any kind of war, no matter how just. It was Salazar, and not Godric, who'd taught the first Hogwarts class in Battle Magic. Godric had taught the first Hogwarts class in Herbology, the magics of green growing life.

To his last day he'd never been able to cast the Patronus Charm.

Godric Gryffindor had been a good man, not a happy one.

And on his deathbed, Godric had told Helga (for Salazar had abandoned him, and Rowena passed before) that he didn't regret any of it, and he was not warning his students not to follow in his footsteps, no one was ever to say he'd told anyone not to follow in his footsteps. If it had been the right thing for him to do, then he wouldn't tell anyone else to choose wrongly, not even the youngest student in Hogwarts. And yet for those who did follow in his footsteps, he hoped they would remember that Gryffindor had told his House that it was all right for them to be happier than him. That red and gold would be bright warm colors, from now on.

Good fanfic? I'm thinking; good fanfic.

quote:

And Helga had promised him, weeping, that when she was Headmistress she would make sure of it.

Whereupon Godric had died, and left no ghost behind him; and Harry had shoved the book back to Hermione and walked away a little, so she wouldn't see him crying.

You wouldn't think that a book with an innocent title like "The Patronus Charm: Wizards Who Could and Couldn't" would be the saddest book Harry had ever read.

Harry...

Harry didn't want that.

To be in that book.

Harry didn't want that.

You had to go and gently caress it up.

quote:

Harry hadn't been able to cast the Patronus Charm no matter what happy thought he tried. People hadn't seemed surprised by that, which made it even worse. Hermione hadn't been able to do it either. People had been very surprised by that, and Harry had seen her starting to get the same sidelong looks as him. The other Ravenclaws who'd failed weren't getting those looks. But Hermione was the Sunshine General, and her fans were treating it like she'd failed them, somehow, like she'd betrayed a promise she'd never made.

...

The books had confirmed what the Headmaster had told Harry; often, wizards who couldn't cast the Patronus Charm in practice would be able to do so in the presence of a real Dementor, going from flat failure all the way to a full corporeal Patronus. It defied all logic, the Dementor's aura of fear ought to make it harder to wield a happy thought; but that was the way it was.

So the two of them were both going to give it one last try, there was no way either of them wouldn't give it one last try.

It was the day the Dementor came to Hogwarts.

quote:

"Okay," Harry whispered. "Happier thoughts. If you do go to a full corporeal Patronus, what do you think your animal will be?"

"An otter," Hermione said at once.

"An otter? " Harry whispered incredulously.

"Yes, an otter," said Hermione. "What about yours?"

"Peregrine falcon," Harry said without hesitation. "It can dive faster than three hundred kilometers per hour, it's the fastest living creature there is." The peregrine falcon had been Harry's favorite animal since forever. Harry was determined to become an Animagus someday, just to get that as his form, and fly by the strength of his own wings, and see the land below with sharper eyes... "But why an otter? "

Hermione smiled, but didn't say anything.

quote:

Seamus Finnigan was ashen and trembling as he rejoined the students milling about on the withered and snow-spotted grass. Seamus's Patronus Charm had been successful, but there was still that interval between when the Headmaster dispelled his own Patronus and when you were supposed to cast your own, when you faced the Dementor's fear unshielded.

Up to twenty seconds of exposure at five paces was certainly safe, even for an eleven-year-old wizard with weak resistance and a still-maturing brain. There was a lot of variance in how hard the Dementor's power hit people, which was another thing not quite understood; but twenty seconds was definitely safe.

Forty seconds of Dementor exposure at five paces might possibly have been enough to cause permanent damage, though only to the most sensitive subjects.

quote:

(During his reading, Harry had discovered with considerable horror that some books claimed the Dementor's Kiss would eat your soul and that this was the reason for the permanent mindless coma into which it put the victims. And that wizards who believed this had deliberately used the Dementor's Kiss to execute criminals. It was a certainty that some called criminals were innocent, and even if they weren't, destroying their souls? If Harry had believed in souls, he would have... drawn a blank, he just couldn't think of an appropriate response to that.)

For once, something important about wizard society that WILL be brought back. The use of dementors in HP cannon is really quite insane.

quote:

"What did you see?" Harry asked Seamus in a low voice.

A lot of students hadn't answered Harry, when he'd tried to gather the data; but Seamus was Finnigan of Chaos, one of Harry's lieutenants. Maybe that wasn't fair, but...

"Dead," said Seamus in a whisper, "grayish and slimy... dead and left in water for a while... "

Harry nodded. "That's what a lot of people see," Harry said. He projected confidence, even though it was fake, because Seamus needed it. "Go eat some chocolate, you'll feel better."

Seamus nodded and stumbled off toward the table of healing sweets.

"Expecto Patronum! " cried a young boy's voice.

Then there were gasps of shock, even from the Aurors.

Harry spun around to look -

There was a brilliant silver bird standing between Anthony Goldstein and the cage. The bird reared its head and let out a cry, and the cry was also silver, as bright and hard and beautiful as metal.

And something in the back of Harry's mind said, if that's a peregrine falcon, I'm going to strangle him in his sleep.

quote:

"As you say," Dumbledore said reluctantly. "I admit I was not expecting to lose that wager, Quirinus, but you have proven your wisdom."

All the students were looking at them, puzzled; except Hermione, who was staring in the direction of the cage and the tall decaying robes; and Harry, who was watching everyone, since he was imagining himself feeling paranoid.

Professor Quirrell said, in tones that did not invite further comments, "I am allowed to teach the Killing Curse to students who wish to learn it. Which will render them considerably safer from Dark Wizards and other pests, and it is foolish to think they will otherwise know no deadly magics." Professor Quirrell paused, his eyes narrowing. "Headmaster, I respectfully observe that you are not looking well. I suggest leaving the remainder of the day's task to Professor Flitwick."

Dumbledore shook his head. "We are almost done for the day, Quirinus. I will last."

quote:

Even after Harry had shoved the chocolate into Hermione's mouth and she'd chewed and swallowed, she was still breathing in great gasps and crying, her eyes still seemed unfocused.

She can't have been permanently Demented, Harry thought desperately at the confusion inside him, the horrible fear and deathly fury beginning to twist around each other, she can't have been, she wasn't exposed for even ten seconds let alone forty -

But she could be temporarily Demented, as Harry realized in that moment, there wasn't any rule that you couldn't be temporarily injured by a Dementor in just ten seconds if you were sensitive enough.

Then Hermione's eyes seemed to focus, and dart around, and settle on him.

"Harry," she gasped, and the other students went silent. "Harry, don't. Don't! "

Harry was suddenly afraid to ask what he shouldn't do, was he in her worst memories, or some sleep's nightmare that she was now reliving in waking life?

"Don't go near it!" said Hermione. Her hand reached out, grabbed him by the lapel of his robes. "You mustn't go near it, Harry! It spoke to me, Harry, it knows you, it knows you're here! "

"What -" Harry said, and then cursed himself for asking.

"The Dementor! " said Hermione. Her voice rose to a shriek. "Professor Quirrell wants it to eat you! "

In the sudden hush, Professor Quirrell came forward a few steps; but he didn't approach any closer (Harry was there, after all). "Miss Granger," he said, and his voice was grave, "I think you should have some more chocolate."

quote:

"Professor Quirrell?" Harry said in a low voice, having come as close to the Defense Professor as he dared. "What do you see when you -"

"Don't ask." The voice was very flat.

...

Something strange flickered in Professor Quirrell's eyes, then, as he looked at Harry. "Let us hope," Professor Quirrell said, "that you succeed upon this try, Mr. Potter. For if you do, the Headmaster may teach you his trick of using a Patronus to send messages that cannot be forged or intercepted, and the military importance of that is impossible to overstate. It would be a tremendous advantage to the Chaos Legion, and someday, I suspect, this entire country. But if you do not succeed, Mr. Potter... well, I shall understand."

quote:

Headmaster?" Harry said. "What do you see?"

The Headmaster's voice was also calm. "The Dementors are creatures of fear, and as your fear of the Dementor diminishes, so does the fearsomeness of its form. I see a tall, thin, naked man. He is not decaying. He is only slightly painful to look upon. That is all. What do you see, Harry?"

...Harry couldn't see under the cloak.

Or that wasn't right, it was that his mind was refusing to see what was under the cloak...

No, his mind was trying to see the wrong thing under the cloak, Harry could feel it, his eyes trying to force a mistake. But Harry had done his best to train himself to notice that tiny feeling of confusion, to automatically flinch away from making stuff up; and every time his mind tried to start inventing a lie about what was under the cloak, that reflex was fast enough to shut it down.

Harry looked under the cloak and saw...

An open question. Harry wouldn't let his mind see something false, and so he didn't see anything, like the part of his visual cortex getting that signal was just ceasing to exist. There was a blind spot under the cloak. Harry couldn't know what was under there.

Just that it was far worse than any decaying mummy.

If you've been following the thread discussions, you won't be surprised by the shocking reveal here - reducing dementors to spoooooooooky zombies is just a part of Yud shifting them from embodiments of depression to an embodiment of the scariest thing ever - ~~Eliezer Yudkowsky no longer existing at some point~~ DEATH.

quote:

Why am I still here?

It wasn't the shame of others thinking him cowardly, that kept Harry's feet in place.

It wasn't the hope of repairing his reputation that brought up his wand.

It wasn't the desire to master the Patronus Charm as magic, that moved his fingers into the initial position.

It was something else, something that had to oppose whatever lay beneath the cloak, this was the true darkness and Harry had to find out whether it lay within him, the power to drive it back.

Harry had planned to try one final time to think of his book-shopping spree with his father, but instead, at the last minute, facing the Dementor, a different memory occurred to him, something he hadn't tried before; a thought that wasn't warm and happy in the ordinary way, but felt righter, somehow.

And Harry remembered the stars, remembered them burning terribly bright and unwavering in the Silent Night; he let that image fill him, fill all of him like an Occlumency barrier across his entire mind, became once again the bodiless awareness of the void.

The bright silver shining phoenix vanished.

And the Dementor smashed into his mind like the fist of God.

So like something that totally doesn't exist aha-aha, amirite.

quote:

There was an instant when the two forces clashed head-on, when the peaceful starlit memory held its own against the fear, even as Harry's fingers began the wand motions, practiced until they had become automatic. They weren't warm and happy, those blazing points of light in perfect blackness; but it was an image the Dementor could not easily pierce. For the silent burning stars were vast and unafraid, and to shine in the cold and darkness was their natural state.

But there was a flaw, a crack, a fault-line in the immovable object trying to resist that irresistible force. Harry felt a twinge of anger at the Dementor for trying to feed on him, and it was like slipping on wet ice. Harry's mind began to slide sideways, into bitterness, black fury, deathly hatred -

Harry's wand came up in the final brandish.

It felt wrong.

"Expecto Patronum," his voice spoke, the words hollow and pointless.

And Harry fell into his dark side, fell down into his dark side, further and faster and deeper than ever before, down down down as the slide accelerated, as the Dementor latched onto the exposed and vulnerable parts and fed on them, eating away the light. A fading reflex scrabbled for warmth, but even as an image of Hermione came to him, or an image of Mum and Dad, the Dementor twisted it, showed him Hermione lying dead on the ground, the corpses of his mother and father, and then even that was sucked away.

Into the vacuum rose the memory, the worst memory, something forgotten so long ago that the neural patterns shouldn't have still existed.

"Lily, take Harry and go! It's him!" shouted a man's voice. "Go! Run! I'll hold him off!"

And Harry couldn't help but think, in the empty depths of his dark side, how ridiculously overconfident James Potter had been. Hold off Lord Voldemort? With what?

Etc.

quote:

"Get him chocolate!" demanded the voice of Professor Quirrell, pointlessly, because Professor Flitwick's tiny form was already cannonballing toward where the Headmaster was racing toward the students.

Hermione was moving forward herself, though she didn't know what else she meant to do -

"Cast Patronuses! " shouted the Headmaster, as he brought Harry behind the Aurors. "Everyone who can! Get them between Harry and the Dementor! It's still feeding on him! "

There was a moment of frozen horror.

"Expecto Patronum! " shouted Professor Flitwick and Auror Goryanof, and then Anthony Goldstein, but he failed the first time, and then Parvati Patil, who succeeded, and then Anthony tried again and his silver bird spread its wings and screamed at the Dementor, and Dean Thomas roared the words like they had been written in letters of fire and his wand gave birth to a towering white bear; there were eight blazing Patronuses all in a line between Harry and the Dementor, and Harry went on screaming and screaming as the Headmaster laid him on the dried grass.

Hermione couldn't cast a Patronus Charm, so she ran toward where Harry lay. In her mind, something tried to guess how long it had been already. Was it twenty seconds? More?

...

"It still feeds on him, even here! How? If you know, Hermione Granger, you must tell me! Tell me! "

Hermione realized then what she ought to do, and it was the hardest decision of her life.

What if whatever had happened to Harry, happened to her too?

All her limbs cold as death, her vision gone dark, fear overwhelming everything; she'd seen Harry dying, Mum and Dad dying, all her friends dying, everyone dying, so that in the end, when she died, she would be alone. That was her secret nightmare she'd never talked about with anyone, that had given the Dementor its power over her, the loneliest thing was to die alone.

Oh yeah, the Asian Auror is called Komodo.

quote:

There was no time for deciding, Harry was dying.

"I can't remember now," said Hermione, her voice cracking, "but just hold on, I'll go in front of the Dementor again..."

She started to run toward the Dementor.

"Miss Granger!" squeaked Professor Flitwick, but he made no move to stop her, only kept holding his wand on Professor Quirrell.

"Everyone! " shouted Auror Komodo in a voice of military command. "Get your Patronuses out of her way! "

"FLITWICK! " roared Professor Quirrell. "SUMMON POTTER'S WAND! "

Even as Hermione understood, Professor Flitwick was already crying "Accio! ", and she saw the stick of wood zooming up from where it had lain almost touching the Dementor's cage.

The eyes opened, dead and vacant.

"Harry! " gasped a voice in the colorless world. "Harry! Speak to me! "

The face of Albus Dumbledore leaned over into the field of vision, which had been occupied by a distant marble ceiling.

"You're annoying," said the empty voice. "You should die."

And here we finally see our hero damaged. Not by any of the stupid poo poo he happily pulled, but by participating in an exercise every single responsible adult had approved of.

I don't have much to say about this chapter because (for goddamned once) we're actually dealing core concepts that will be somewhat explored and revisited in the future.

# ? May 11, 2017 11:49

Cavelcade: Dec 9, 2015; I'm actually a boy!

The Dementor's Kiss is not dissimilar to full frontal lobotomies which were carried out by western countries more commonly that should make us comfortable for two decades. It is incredibly messed up, but not too outside what we really did.

This chapter is fine, but I am still annoyed that Harry is never bitten by his own foolishness.

# ? May 11, 2017 12:10

cultureulterior: Jan 27, 2004

Xander77 posted:

Chapter 43: Humanism, Pt 1
Etc.
Oh yeah, the Asian Auror is called Komodo..

Might be that by this point all the extra characters are named for people who do fan art. Don't know how early that started.

(My name's in a later chapter)

# ? May 11, 2017 12:24

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Cavelcade posted:

The Dementor's Kiss is not dissimilar to full frontal lobotomies which were carried out by western countries more commonly that should make us comfortable for two decades. It is incredibly messed up, but not too outside what we really did.

This chapter is fine, but I am still annoyed that Harry is never bitten by his own foolishness.

Despite what popular culture might tell you, lobotomies were not intended to transform the patient into a drooling vegetable. (Not endorsing them)

# ? May 11, 2017 13:57

Tunicate: May 15, 2012

Xander77 posted:

Despite what popular culture might tell you, lobotomies were not intended to transform the patient into a drooling vegetable. (Not endorsing them)

Well yeah they got prescribed as a miracle cure to everything from headaches to depression to epilepsy.

In several cases they were done intending to make vegetables out of people.

quote:

Dully says that when Lou Dully realized the operation didn't turn him "into a vegetable, she got me out of the house. I was made a ward of the state."

Or just to make patients less troublesome.

# ? May 11, 2017 15:34

Akujiki: Nov 25, 2013

Tunicate posted:

Or just to make patients less troublesome.

I don't see Nurse Ratched's name there.

# ? May 12, 2017 01:50

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Do dementors look different to each person in the original books, or is that a Yudkowsky change?

# ? May 12, 2017 04:09

YggiDee: Sep 12, 2007; WASP CREW

Tiggum posted:

Do dementors look different to each person in the original books, or is that a Yudkowsky change?

I think that's made up, dementors look like wraith-y floating cloaks over decaying corpses, and nobody knows much more than that because if you're close enough to see details you've probably had your soul eaten. So I guess it could technically be true but the only people who know for sure are dead-ish.

# ? May 12, 2017 04:36

Taffy Torpedo: Feb 2, 2008; ...Can we have the radio?

Seems like he's kind of combined dementors and boggarts.

Also am I the only one who doesn't know what's going on half the time in this? It might just be the way Xander's cutting it up but it feels like Yud's using an intentionally obtuse writing style, and not a good one.

# ? May 12, 2017 04:57

Grace Baiting: Jul 20, 2012; Audi famam illius;
Cucurrit quaeque
Tetigit destruens.

^^^ e:fb but I have links

YggiDee posted:

I think that's made up, dementors look like wraith-y floating cloaks over decaying corpses, and nobody knows much more than that because if you're close enough to see details you've probably had your soul eaten. So I guess it could technically be true but the only people who know for sure are dead-ish.

The Harry Potter wikia shows its usefulness here. Yep, Dementors in the actual books are mostly what you described, with no "form of your worst fear" thing.

Rather, the "form of your worst fear" thing is actually the exact description of the lowly boggart.

Naturally Hariezer's deduces that his worst fear (death) just so happens to be the Actual True Essence of HPMOR's dementors, which also shapeshift to cause greater fear because Death The Abstract Concept as manifested in HPMOR's dementors also want to terrorize all of their victims for some reason. This just goes to show that most people are simply too stupid to realize that death is way scarier than you all have been brainwashed into believing, and only our beloved trueseeing hypergenius prontagonists of Hariezer and Voldkowsky grasp the real truth about death/Death.

# ? May 12, 2017 05:19

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Stanfield posted:

Also am I the only one who doesn't know what's going on half the time in this? It might just be the way Xander's cutting it up but it feels like Yud's using an intentionally obtuse writing style, and not a good one.

I'd really like you to check the link, and see if the full chapter makes anything more clear. If so, tell me which parts you thought should have been kept in for things to make sense. Cutting up a large chunk of text without omitting anything vital to understanding it is always a challenge.

# ? May 12, 2017 05:21

Liquid Communism: Mar 9, 2004; коммунизм хранится в яичках

I love that the main character actually failing at something is a complete anticlimax here, because Yud can't even write a scared kid believably.

# ? May 12, 2017 07:40

NihilCredo: Jun 6, 2011; iram omni possibili modo preme:
plus una illa te diffamabit, quam multæ virtutes commendabunt

Xander77 posted:

I'd really like you to check the link, and see if the full chapter makes anything more clear. If so, tell me which parts you thought should have been kept in for things to make sense. Cutting up a large chunk of text without omitting anything vital to understanding it is always a challenge.

You usually cut scene transitions, which is fine, but when you do you really should cue them yourself.

E.g.:

"Next: Harry and Hermione are in the library, studying the history of the Patronus Charm in search of clues."

"At Quirrell's urging, Dumbledore teleports Harry away."

I've read the story before and i still found myself wondering if you'd skipped half a whole scene or something.

Also, that "etc." definitely shouldn't have been there.

Thinking about it, it might be less work for you just to copy paste the whole thing and keep the amount of comments you're writing the same?

# ? May 12, 2017 08:31

Taffy Torpedo: Feb 2, 2008; ...Can we have the radio?

Xander77 posted:

I'd really like you to check the link, and see if the full chapter makes anything more clear. If so, tell me which parts you thought should have been kept in for things to make sense. Cutting up a large chunk of text without omitting anything vital to understanding it is always a challenge.

The only thing that really would've helped would be leaving this line in, I guess:

quote:

She couldn't remember it, she couldn't remember the nightmare clearly, she couldn't remember why she had thought it was possible, why she had been afraid -

But honestly I think it's just Yud's writing. It's just dense enough and just bland enough that I don't really absorb all of it.

# ? May 12, 2017 09:09

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

NihilCredo posted:

You usually cut scene transitions, which is fine, but when you do you really should cue them yourself.

Also, that "etc." definitely shouldn't have been there.

k to the first, the etc was unnecessarily curt version of "Harriezer gets the whole flashback in the same style".

# ? May 12, 2017 09:35

Avalerion: Oct 19, 2012

I like the idea that azkaban is actually a prison for the dementors, letting them feed on prisoners is something wizards do to keep them there.

# ? May 12, 2017 11:17

Stroth: Mar 31, 2007; All Problems Solved

quote:

An open question. Harry wouldn't let his mind see something false, and so he didn't see anything, like the part of his visual cortex getting that signal was just ceasing to exist. There was a blind spot under the cloak. Harry couldn't know what was under there.

In a rare moment of self realization Yud discovers that he litterally cannot see things that contradict his world-view.

# ? May 15, 2017 02:34

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Chapter 44: Humanism, Pt 2

Dumbledore finally manages to teleport Harry away.

quote:

It was only a moment, it seemed, between when Flitwick's raven had flown to elsewhere, and when Albus Dumbledore reappeared in another crack of red and golden fire with Harry in his arms; but somehow in that time Hermione had already managed to fill her hands with chocolate.

Before Hermione even got there, chocolate had zoomed off the table and straight into Harry's mouth, which a tiny part of her mind said was unfair, he'd gotten a chance to do it for her -

Harry spat the chocolate back out again.

"Go away," said a voice so empty it wasn't even cold.

...

Everything seemed to freeze, everyone who had been moving toward Harry halted, all movements broken by the shock of those two dead words.

Then: "No," said Albus Dumbledore, "I will not," and time resumed again, even as another piece of chocolate zoomed off the table and into Harry's mouth.

Hermione was close enough now that she could see Harry's expression become more hateful, as his mouth chewed with a mechanical, unnatural rhythm.

:Chews chocolate, hatefully:

quote:

"He doesn't mean it, does he?" Seamus said it like he was begging.

"You don't understand," Hermione said, her voice breaking, "that's not Harry -" and she shut up before she said anything more, but she had to say that much.

She saw from the look on his face that Neville understood, and she also saw that the others didn't. If Harry had really never thought anything like that, then being exposed to a Dementor for less than a minute wouldn't have made him say it. That's what they were probably thinking.

Less than a minute of Dementor exposure couldn't create a whole new evil person inside you out of nothing.

But if that person was already there -

For some reason, Dumbeldore and Hermione can now communicate "by will". A form of telepathy I'm pretty sure isn't present in the HP universe, handy though it would be.

quote:

It is better that you not know, sent the Headmaster.

Now Hermione was getting really nervous. She didn't know how much the Headmaster knew about Harry's dark side -

A fair point, sent the Headmaster. I am about to tell you; steel yourself so as not to react. Are you ready? Good. I am going to pretend to cast the Killing Curse on Professor McGonagall - DO NOT REACT, Hermione!

That's a stupid plan, not in the least because we've seen no evidence that Harriezer particularly cares about Minerva, as compared to literally anyone else.

Hermione has a better one:

quote:

There was a compulsion to chew and swallow chocolate. The response to compulsion was killing.

People had gathered around and stared. That was annoying. The response to annoyance was killing.

Other people were chattering in the background. That was insolent. The response to insolence was to inflict pain, but since none of them were useful, killing them would be simpler.

Killing all those people would be difficult. But many of them didn't trust Quirrell, who was strong. Finding exactly the right trigger could cause them all to kill each other.

Then a person leaned over into the field of vision and did something completely strange, something that belonged to a foreign mode of thought, for which there was only a single response stored anywhere -

-------------------------------------------------------

She heard the gasps around her, and they didn't matter, she maintained the kiss on those chocolate-smeared lips as the tears welled in her eyes.

And Harry's arms came up and pushed her away, and his lips yelled, "I told you, no kissing! "

1. This chapter last 1134 words. Extraordinarily short, by HP standards. That's the duration to which the Harriezer being hurt or vulnerable is limited.

2. As people who already consider Harriezer to be an rear end in a top hat, we might naturally assume that his "dark side" would be a further extension of the negative aspects of his personality. Or perhaps those aspects of his personality that Yudkowsky considers to be negative, because what's even the point of exploring your heroes "dark side" otherwise?

Nope. It's literally a foreign presence, a machine of sorts. Unfriendly AI (but not really)

# ? May 18, 2017 12:44

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Literally more interesting than the entirety of battle school:
https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3809527&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

Also; more reasonable sudden betrayal.

# ? May 21, 2017 06:37

fritz: Jul 26, 2003

Xander77 posted:

Literally more interesting than the entirety of battle school:
https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3809527&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

Also; more reasonable sudden betrayal.

I read that as 'battle tendencies' at first and just imagine how different this thread would be if Big Yud were doing a Jojo thing.

# ? May 22, 2017 14:46

MatchaZed: Feb 14, 2010; We Can Do It!

fritz posted:

I read that as 'battle tendencies' at first and just imagine how different this thread would be if Big Yud were doing a Jojo thing.

He'd fall prey to Dio instantly.

# ? May 23, 2017 21:02

Rand Brittain: Mar 25, 2013; "Go on until you're stopped."

Look, Sheer Heart Attack has no weaknesses. There's no way in logic to defeat it.

# ? May 29, 2017 18:23

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Chapter 45: Humanism, Pt 3

quote:

Fawkes's song gently trailed off into nothing.

Harry sat up from where he had lain on the winter-blasted grass, Fawkes still perched on his shoulder.

There were intakes of breath from all around him.

"Harry," said Seamus in a wavering voice, "are you all right?"

...

Fawkes cawed at him.

"Something I have to do?" Harry said to Fawkes. "What?"

Fawkes bobbed its head in the direction of the Dementor.

...

Fawkes nuzzled his cheek, briefly.

...and that would help them, someday, understanding that the Boy-Who-Lived could also be hurt, could be wretched. So that when they were hurt and wretched themselves, they would remember seeing Harry writhing on the ground, and know that their own pain and troubles didn't mean they'd never amount to anything. Had the Headmaster calculated that, when he had let the other students stay and watch?

My biases are hurting me here, but from my perspective, this makes much more sense as preemptive undermining of Harriezer as a "strong" Dark Lord.

quote:

"I don't really know how to say thank you graciously," Harry said quietly, "any more than I know how to apologize. All I can say that if you're wondering whether it was the right thing to do, it was."

The boy and the girl gazed into each other's eyes.

"Sorry," Harry said. "About what happens next. If there's anything I can do -"

"No," Hermione said back. "There isn't. It's all right, though." Then she turned from Harry and walked away, toward the path that led back to the gates of Hogwarts.

Is Harriezer aware of the fact that he's a socially stunted arrogant prick? Or is this just a momentary flash?

Place your bets.

quote:

Harry's eyes went back to the tall tattered cloak, almost absentmindedly, and without really being aware of what he was speaking, Harry said, "It shouldn't ought to exist."

"Ah," said a dry, precise voice. "I thought you might say that. I am very sorry to tell you, Mr. Potter, that Dementors cannot be killed. Many have tried."

"Really?" Harry said, still absentmindedly. "What did they try?"

"There is a certain extremely dangerous and destructive spell," Professor Quirrell said, "which I will not name here; a spell of cursed fire. It is what you would use to destroy an ancient device such as the Sorting Hat. It has no effect on Dementors. They are undying."

"They are not undying," said the Headmaster. The words mild, the gaze sharp. "They do not possess eternal life. They are wounds in the world, and attacking a wound only makes it larger."

"Hm," Harry said. "Suppose you threw it into the Sun? Would it be destroyed?"

"Throw it into the Sun? " squeaked Professor Flitwick, looking like he wanted to faint.

"It seems unlikely, Mr. Potter," Professor Quirrell said dryly. "The Sun is very large, after all; I doubt the Dementor would have much effect on it. But it is not a test I would like to try, Mr. Potter, just in case."

quote:

Fawkes cawed a final time, mantled his wings around Harry's head, and then launched himself from Harry. Launched himself straight toward the Dementor, screaming a great piercing cry of defiance that echoed around the field. And before anyone could react to that, there was a flash of fire, and Fawkes was gone.

The peace faded, a little.

The warmth faded, a little.

Apparently Fawkes "dying" doesn't even phase anyone. Not even enough to raise the question.

quote:

"It is good to know you are fully recovered, Mr. Potter," Professor Quirrell said firmly, as though to deny any other possibility. "Now, I believe Miss Ransom was up next?"

That started a bit of an argument, in which Professor Quirrell was right and everyone else was wrong. The Defense Professor pointed out that, despite the understandable emotions of all concerned, the chance of a similar mishap occurring to any other student verged on the infinitesimal; the more so as they now knew to avoid mischances with wands. And meanwhile, there were other students who needed to take their own best chance at casting a corporeal Patronus Charm, or else learn the feeling of a Dementor so they could flee, and discover their own degree of vulnerability...

In the end it turned out that Dean Thomas and Ron Weasley of Gryffindor were the only ones left who were still willing to go anywhere near the Dementor, which simplified the argument.

quote:

All right, Harry thought to himself, if the Dementor is a riddle, what is the answer?

And just like that, it was obvious.

Harry looked at the tarnished, slightly corroded cage.

He saw what lay beneath the tall, tattered cloak.

That was it, then.

....

"All right," said Auror Komodo, "let's take it back."

"Excuse me," Harry said. "I'd like to have another go at the Dementor."

___________________

Harry's request met with a certain amount of opposition of the you're completely insane variety, though it was only Auror Butnaru who actually said that out loud.

"Fawkes told me to," Harry said.

...

"I think," Professor Quirrell said finally, staring at Harry with narrowed eyes, "that if we do not allow him to do this under supervision, he may, at some point or another, sneak off and look for a Dementor on his own. Do I accuse you falsely, Mr. Potter?"

There was an appalled pause at this. It seemed like a good time to play his trump card.

"I don't mind if the Headmaster keeps his own Patronus up," Harry said. For I will be in the presence of a Dementor just the same, Patronus or no.

quote:

"Headmaster," Harry said, "suppose the Ravenclaw door asked you this riddle: What lies at the center of a Dementor? What would you say?"

"Fear," said the Headmaster.

It was a simple enough mistake. The Dementor approached, and the fear came over you. The fear hurt, you felt the fear weakening you, you wanted the fear to go away.

It was natural to think the fear was the problem.

But it's no "fear", you dipshits, it's the only thing a rational person like Yud would be afraid of! DEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATH! Death that Harriezer must stare unflinchingly in the face, ready to contend with the horrifying prospect of a world that does not contain him.

quote:

They had come very close to the Dementor's cage guarded by four Patronuses, when there came sharp intakes of breath from the three Aurors and Professor Quirrell. Everyone's faces turned to look at the Dementor, seeming to listen; there was horror on Auror Goryanof's face.

Then Professor Quirrell raised his head, his face hard, and spat toward the Dementor.

"It did not like having its prey taken from it, I suppose," Dumbledore said quietly. "Well. If it becomes necessary, Quirinus, there will always be a refuge for you at Hogwarts."

"What did it say?" said Harry.

Every head swung to stare at him.

"You didn't hear it...?" Dumbledore said.

Harry shook his head.

"It said to me," said Professor Quirrell, "that it knew me, and that it would hunt me down someday, wherever I tried to hide." His face was rigid, showing no fright.

"Ah," Harry said. "I wouldn't worry about that, Professor Quirrell." It's not like Dementors can actually talk, or think; the structure they have is borrowed from your own mind and expectations...

JFC. It's the ghost thing all over again, only somehow even stupider. This "rationalist" ""scientist"" """investigating""" the magical world just tosses the experience of centuries or millennia of experiments aside, and decides that his stupid rear end theory is correct. And the narrative conspires to vindicate him.

quote:

His wand rose into the starting position for the Patronus Charm.

Harry thought of the stars, the image that had almost held off the Dementor even without a Patronus. Only this time, Harry added the missing ingredient, he'd never truly seen it but he'd seen the pictures and the video. The Earth, blazing blue and white with reflected sunlight as it hung in space, amid the black void and the brilliant points of light. It belonged there, within that image, because it was what gave everything else its meaning. The Earth was what made the stars significant, made them more than uncontrolled fusion reactions, because it was Earth that would someday colonize the galaxy, and fulfill the promise of the night sky.

Would they still be plagued by Dementors, the children's children's children, the distant descendants of humankind as they strode from star to star? No. Of course not. The Dementors were only little nuisances, paling into nothingness in the light of that promise; not unkillable, not invincible, not even close. You had to put up with little nuisances, if you were one of the lucky and unlucky few to be born on Earth; on Ancient Earth, as it would be remembered someday. That too was part of what it meant to be alive, if you were one of the tiny handful of sentient beings born into the beginning of all things, before intelligent life had come fully into its power. That the much vaster future depended on what you did here, now, in the earliest days of dawn, when there was still so much darkness to be fought, and temporary nuisances like Dementors.

...

I know you now, Harry thought as his wand twitched once, twice, thrice and four times, as his fingers slid exactly the right distances, I comprehend your nature, you symbolize Death, through some law of magic you are a shadow that Death casts into the world.

And Death is not something I will ever embrace.

It is only a childish thing, that the human species has not yet outgrown.

And someday...

We'll get over it...

And people won't have to say goodbye any more...

The wand rose up and leveled straight at the Dementor.

"EXPECTO PATRONUM!"

The thought exploded from him like a breaking dam, surged down his arm into his wand, burst from it as blazing white light. Light that became corporeal, took on shape and substance.

A figure with two arms, two legs, and a head, standing upright; the animal Homo sapiens, the shape of a human being.

...

You are not invincible, and someday the human species will end you.

I will end you if I can, by the power of mind and magic and science.

I won't cower in fear of Death, not while I have a chance of winning.

I won't let Death touch me, I won't let Death touch the ones I love.

And even if you do end me before I end you,

Another will take my place, and another,

Until the wound in the world is healed at last...

And the Deathmentor blows the gently caress up. So much for your "invincible" shtick, stupid adults with centuries of experience behind them :smug:

Xander77 fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Jun 1, 2017

# ? Jun 1, 2017 20:39

Red Mike: Jul 11, 2011

I won't comment on the stupidity since it's quite literally been beaten to death. The stupid italicised narration always got on my tits as well, constantly breaking sentences apart onto fifteen thousand lines for whatever reason.

However, I wanted to draw attention to this:

quote:

"Hm," Harry said. "Suppose you threw it into the Sun? Would it be destroyed?"

"Throw it into the Sun? " squeaked Professor Flitwick, looking like he wanted to faint.

"It seems unlikely, Mr. Potter," Professor Quirrell said dryly. "The Sun is very large, after all; I doubt the Dementor would have much effect on it. But it is not a test I would like to try, Mr. Potter, just in case."

Which, unlike the majority of the jokes in the text, I actually found funny. It's your run-of-the-mill misunderstanding "would it be destroyed? nah the sun's too large. no I meant the dementor" humour, but I think it works well and the rest of the text doesn't bring attention to it unnecessarily like other times to show off "hey this is a joke you need to laugh now".

Also, Fawkes doesn't die, it teleports away like the phoenix does constantly in this text.

e: Also also, I don't remember if this chapter showed the shape of the patronus or not, but if it does then leaving it out is a major mistake. It's without a doubt the stupidest bit of this entire fanfic.

# ? Jun 1, 2017 20:55

Tunicate: May 15, 2012

Xander77 posted:

JFC. It's the ghost thing all over again, only somehow even stupider. This "rationalist" ""scientist"" """investigating""" the magical world just tosses the experience of centuries or millennia of experiments aside, and decides that his stupid rear end theory is correct. And the narrative conspires to vindicate him.

Yeah it's straight up magical thinking. 'Everything will go as I expect it to, because I am expecting everything in the right way'.

Actually reminds me of an ep of Farscape I just watched.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97YTQB4suso&t=28s

quote:

Sikozu: (stridently) You have been reduced in size! You're hardly bigger than a filima bug now! Except... except this can't be happening.

Rygel: Can't it?

Sikozu: No... - reduction by proportionately subtracting atoms would - leave our brains too simple to function.

Rygel: So? Maybe they just made all our atoms smaller.

Sikozu: But then we couldn't breathe normal sized air molecules don't you see?! No. No! This isn't happening because it is not possible.

Rygel: Your brain isn't functioning. Do you think this is all just a hallucination? Do you like that explanation better, hmm?

Sikozu: No, but I simply cannot comprehend...

Rygel: Neither can I. Who cares? We're here, they did it, and that's that. You consider yourself intelligent?

Sikozu: Yes, I do.

Rygel: Then stop behaving like a child.

Sikozu: I am not a child!

Rygel: No, you're an infant! You've studied but you haven't experienced. You know nothing of life!

Sikozu: And you do?

Rygel: I've been around long enough to know how ignorant I am. I don't assume the universe obeys my preconceptions. Huh! But I know a frelling fact when it hits me in the face!

# ? Jun 1, 2017 21:36

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Red Mike posted:

Also, Fawkes doesn't die, it teleports away like the phoenix does constantly in this text.

e: Also also, I don't remember if this chapter showed the shape of the patronus or not, but if it does then leaving it out is a major mistake. It's without a doubt the stupidest bit of this entire fanfic.

Yeah, but it would appear as though it died or disappeared, which for most students (and even adults / aurors) who have never interacted with a Phoenix, really should be cause for some curiosity.

Good point regarding the Patronus though. Edited.

# ? Jun 1, 2017 22:31

Red Mike: Jul 11, 2011

Now that that's changed, let me just say again. His patronus being a human, that's the dumbest thing ever, tied with the two big future uses of this 'imagine the stars' bullshit combined with dementors.

# ? Jun 1, 2017 22:46

ungulateman: Apr 18, 2012; pretentious fuckwit who isn't half as literate or insightful or clever as he thinks he is

I find the Magical Anti-Death Humanism kinda endearing, but it's so utterly at odds with Yud's supposedly rational, scientific mindset that it really doesn't work.

Compare and contrast with Interstellar bending the rules of science a fair bit due to the Power of Love, but how the film is literally all about how love is the most powerful thing in the universe so you can absolutely buy it.

# ? Jun 2, 2017 00:50

Qwertycoatl: Dec 31, 2008

So how come Harry fantasising about immortality is enough to explode the dementor, but Voldemort actually taking some practical steps in that direction isn't? I guess it's a fundamental law of the hpmor setting that reading the right science fiction books gives you superpowers.

The same kind of thing happened earlier, when he could do partial transfiguration because the universe decided to reward him for having a popular-science level understanding of quantum mechanics.

# ? Jun 2, 2017 06:47

blastron: Dec 11, 2007; Don't doodle on it!

Voldemort runs from death, acknowledging its inevitability. Harriezer is convinced that death is just another problem humans haven't solved yet. This isn't a superpower born of reading the right sci-fi books, it's born of being an absurdly optimistic transhumanist who believes in a gleaming, gleaming space-future that is coming ANY DAY NOW please let it be tomorrow I can feel my brain losing its elasticity as I leave my teenage years

# ? Jun 3, 2017 17:48

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Chapter 46: Humanism, Pt 4

quote:

Harry felt... well, normal again. Sane-ish. The spell hadn't undone the day and its damage, hadn't made the injuries as if they had never been, but his hurts had been... bandaged, meliorated? It was hard to describe.

Dumbledore was also looking healthier, though not fully restored. The old wizard's head turned for a moment, locked eyes with Professor Quirrell, then looked back to Harry. "Harry," Dumbledore said, "are you about to collapse in exhaustion and possibly die?"

"No, strangely enough," Harry said. "That took something out of me, but a lot less than I thought it would." Or maybe it gave something back, as well as taking... "Honestly, I expected my body to be hitting the ground with a thud about now."

There was a distinct body-hitting-the-ground-with-a-thuddish sort of sound.

"Thank you for taking care of that, Quirinus," said Dumbledore to Professor Quirrell, who was now standing above and behind the unconscious forms of the three Aurors. "I confess I am still feeling a bit peaky. Though I shall handle the Memory Charms myself."

You could have a really big old discussion about the use of Memory Charms in HPMOR. Long story short - it's horribly unethical abuse of power by pretty much any standard, but Harriezer is fine with it, as long as it's not being done to him.

I'm not sure Yud is subtle enough to make Quirrell and Dumbledore acting as one in gaslighting those poor aurors an indication of Dumby's shadier personality in HPMOR.

quote:

Professor Quirrell inclined his head, and then looked at Harry. "I will omit a good deal of useless incredulity," said Professor Quirrell, "remarks to the effect that Merlin himself failed to do that, et cetera. Let us go straight to asking the important question. What the sweet slithering snakes was that? "

"The Patronus Charm," Harry said. "Version 2.0."

...

"Three sodas," Harry said to his pouch, then looked up at the Defense Professor and the Headmaster of Hogwarts. "Gentlemen," Harry said, "I bought these sodas on my first visit to Platform Nine and Three-Quarters, on the day I entered into Hogwarts. I have been saving them for special occasions; there is a minor enchantment on them to ensure they are drunk at the right time. This is the last of my supply, but I do not think there will ever come a finer occasion. Shall we?"

Dumbledore took a soda can from Harry, and Harry tossed another to Professor Quirrell. The two older men each muttered identical charms over the can and frowned briefly at the result. Harry, for his part, simply popped the top and drank.

The Defense Professor and the Headmaster of Hogwarts politely followed suit.

Harry said, "I thought of my absolute rejection of death as the natural order."

It might not be the right kind of warm feeling you needed to cast a Patronus Charm, but it was going into Harry's Top 10 nonetheless.

Well, at least we're rid of one running gag.

quote:

Harry opened his mouth, and then, as realization hit him, rapidly snapped his mouth shut again. Godric hadn't told anyone, nor had Rowena if she'd known; there might have been any number of wizards who'd figured it out and kept their mouths shut. You couldn't forget if you knew that was what you were trying to do; once you realized how it worked, the animal form of the Patronus Charm would never work for you again - and most wizards didn't have the right upbringing to turn on Dementors and destroy them -

"Erm, sorry about this," said Harry. "But I've just this instant realized that explaining would be an incredibly bad idea until you work some things out on your own."

"Is that the truth, Harry?" Dumbledore said slowly. "Or are you just pretending to be wise -"

"Headmaster! " said Professor Quirrell, sounding genuinely shocked. "Mr. Potter has told you that this spell is not spoken of with those who cannot cast it! You do not press a wizard on such matters!"

"If I told you -" Harry began.

"No," Professor Quirrell said, sounding rather severe. "You don't tell us why, Mr. Potter, you simply tell us that we are not to know. If you wish to devise a hint, you do so carefully, at leisure, not in the midst of conversation."

This actually makes sense (of sorts) as far as the keeping of secrets and restriction on the promulgation of knowledge in the wizarding world would go. Of course, that's the exact opposite of the scientific method, and would be anathema to a proper scientist. But not a rationalist Bayesian scientist, obviously.

...

Some time latter:

quote:

"You are exceptionally good at killing things, my student," said Professor Quirrell.

"Thank you," Harry said sincerely.

"I am not prying," said Professor Quirrell, "but on the off-chance that it was only the Headmaster who you did not trust with the secret...?"

Harry considered this. Professor Quirrell already couldn't cast the animal Patronus Charm.

But you couldn't untell a secret, and Harry was a fast enough learner to realize that he ought to at least think for a while before unleashing this one upon the world.

Harry shook his head, and Professor Quirrell nodded acceptance.

"Out of curiosity, Professor Quirrell," said Harry, "if your bringing the Dementor to Hogwarts had been part of an evil plot, what would have been its goal?"

"Assassinate Dumbledore while he was weakened," Professor Quirrell said without even hesitating. "Hm. The Headmaster told you he was suspicious of me?"

Harry said nothing for a second while he tried to think of a reply, and then gave up when he realized he'd already answered.

"Interesting..." Professor Quirrell said. "Mr. Potter, it is not out of the question that there was a plot at work today.

It could all have been a deep Dumby plot.

quote:

"But why would he?" Harry said.

The Defense Professor stayed quiet a moment, and then said, "Mr. Potter, what steps have you taken to investigate the Headmaster's character?"

"Not many," said Harry. He'd only recently realized... "Not nearly enough."

"Then I will observe," said Professor Quirrell, "that you do not find out all there is to know about a man by asking only his friends."

He does not elaborate, so that's not actually an answer of any sort, which Harriezer fails to notice.

(Note - this is actually good writing, by HPMOR standards at least)

quote:

If another Dementor ever threatens you, or for that matter, slightly annoys you, just let me know and I'll introduce it to Mister Glowy Person. I don't like it when Dementors slightly annoy my friends."

That got him an indecipherable glance from Professor Quirrell. "You destroyed the Dementor because it threatened me?"

"Erm," Harry said, "I'd sort of decided on it before then, but yes, that would have been sufficient reason by itself."

"I see," said Professor Quirrell. "And what would you have done about the threat to me if your spell hadn't worked for destroying the Dementor?"

"Plan B," said Harry. "Encase the Dementor in dense metal with a high melting point, probably tungsten, drop it into an active volcano, and hope it ends up inside Earth's mantle. Ah, the whole planet is filled with molten lava under its surface -"

"Yes," said Professor Quirrell. "I know." The Defense Professor was wearing a very odd smile. "I really should have thought of that myself, all things considered. Tell me, Mr. Potter, if you wanted to lose something where no one would ever find it again, where would you put it?"

Harry considered this question. "I suppose I shouldn't ask what you've found that needs losing -"

"Quite," said Professor Quirrell, as Harry had expected; and then, "Perhaps you will be told when you are older," which Harry hadn't.

"Well," said Harry, "besides trying to get it into the molten core of the planet, you could bury it in solid rock a kilometer underground in a randomly selected location - maybe teleport it in, if there's some way to do that blindly, or drill a hole and repair the hole afterward; the important thing would be not to leave any traces leading there, so it's just an anonymous cubic meter somewhere in the Earth's crust. You could drop it into the Mariana Trench, that's the deepest depth of ocean on the planet - or just pick some random other ocean trench, to make it less obvious. If you could make it buoyant and invisible, then you could throw it into the stratosphere. Or ideally you would launch it into space, with a cloak against detection, and a randomly fluctuating acceleration factor that would take it out of the Solar System. And afterward, of course, you'd Obliviate yourself, so even you didn't know exactly where it was."

The Defense Professor was laughing, and it sounded even odder than his smile.

"Professor Quirrell?" Harry said.

"All excellent suggestions," said Professor Quirrell. "But tell me, Mr. Potter, why those exact five?"

"Huh?" said Harry. "They just seemed like the obvious sorts of ideas."

"Oh?" said Professor Quirrell. "But there is an interesting pattern to them, you see. One might say it sounds like something of a riddle. I must admit, Mr. Potter, that although it has had its ups and downs, on the whole, this has been a surprisingly good day."

This is fair enough, as far as foreshadowing goes. Quirrelmort is (at the very least) smarter than Voldermort.

....

Later:

quote:

"Now remember," said Daphne, "don't just blurt out about the kiss as soon as we walk in, okay? It works better if we tell the whole story in order."

Tracey nodded excitedly.

And as soon as they burst into the Slytherin common room, Tracey Davis took a deep breath and shouted, "Everyone! Harry Potter couldn't cast the Patronus Charm and the Dementor almost ate him and Professor Quirrell saved him but then Potter was all evil until Granger brought him back with a kiss! It's true love for sure! "

It was ordered storytelling of a sort, Daphne supposed.

...

"Oh, yeah," said Daphne, "Harry shoved her away and shouted, 'I told you, no kissing!' Then Harry screamed like he was dying and Fawkes started singing to him - I'm not sure which one of those happened first, actually -"

"That doesn't sound like true love to me," said the Carrow twins. "That sounds like the wrong person kissed him."

"It was supposed to be me," whispered Tracey. Her face was still stunned. "I was supposed to be his true love. Harry Potter was my general. I should've, I should've fought Granger for him -"

Daphne spun on Tracey, incensed. "You? Take Harry away from Hermione?"

"Yeah!" said Tracey. "Me!"

"You're nuts," Daphne stated with conviction. "Even if you had kissed him first, you know what that would make you? The sad little lovestruck girl who dies at the end of Act Two."

"You take that back! " shouted Tracey.

~~Fan~~girls, amirite?

quote:

Hermione stared at the wax-sealed paper, on the surface of which was inscribed simply the number 42.

I figured out why we couldn't cast the Patronus Charm, Hermione, it doesn't have anything to do with us not being happy enough. But I can't tell you. I couldn't even tell the Headmaster. It needs to be even more secret than partial Transfiguration, for now, anyway. But if you ever need to fight Dementors, the secret is written here, cryptically, so that if someone doesn't know it's about Dementors and the Patronus Charm, they won't know what it means...

She'd told Harry about seeing him dying, her parents dying, all her friends dying, everyone dying. She hadn't told him about her terror of dying alone, somehow that was still too painful.

Harry had told her about remembering his parents dying, and that he'd thought it was funny.

There's no light in the place the Dementor takes you, Hermione. No warmth. No caring. It's somewhere that you can't even understand happiness. There's pain, and fear, and those can still drive you. You can hate, and take pleasure in destroying what you hate. You can laugh, when you see other people hurting. But you can't ever be happy, you can't even remember what it is that isn't there anymore... I don't think there's any way I can ever explain just what you saved me from. I'm usually ashamed to put people to trouble, I usually can't stand it when people make sacrifices for me, but this one time I'll say that no matter what it ends up costing you to have kissed me, don't ever doubt for a second that it was the right thing to do.

Hermione hadn't realized how little the Dementor had touched her, how small and shallow had been the darkness into which it had taken her.

She'd seen everyone dying, and that had still been able to hurt.

This is actually taken directly from Ender's game. No one gets to suffer more than the POV character.

Next, Minerva:

quote:

The boy in her office took this in without changing expression. "I would prefer not to disturb the Headmaster over this matter," Harry Potter said calmly. "I insist on not disturbing him, in fact, and you did promise that our conversation would be kept private. So let me put it this way. I know that there was, in fact, a prophecy. I know that you are the one who originally heard it from Professor Trelawney. I know that the prophecy identified the child of James and Lily as someone dangerous to the Dark Lord. And I know who I am, indeed everyone now knows who I am, so you are revealing nothing new or dangerous, if you tell me only this: What was the exact wording which identified me, the child of James and Lily?"

...

"Harry," said Professor McGonagall, "I can't possibly tell you that!" It chilled her to the bone that Harry knew so much already, she couldn't imagine how Harry had learned -

The boy looked at her with strange, sorrowful eyes. "Can you not sneeze without the Headmaster's permission, Professor McGonagall? For I do promise to you that I have good reason to ask, and good reason to keep the question private."

"Please don't, Harry," she whispered.

"All right," Harry said. "One simple question. Please. Was the Potter family mentioned by name? Does the prophecy literally say 'Potter'?"

She stared at Harry for a while. She couldn't have said why or where she got the sense that this was a critical point, that she could not lightly refuse the request, nor lightly accede to it -

"No," she finally said. "Please, Harry, don't ask any more."

The boy smiled, a little sadly it seemed, and said, "Thank you, Minerva. You are a good woman and true."

gently caress you, Yudkowsky.

quote:

So suppose that someone whom Lord Voldemort considered a lesser ally or servant, useful but not indispensable, had begged the Dark Lord to spare Lily's life. Lily's, but not James's.

This person had known that Lord Voldemort would attack the house of the Potters. Had known both the prophecy, and the fact that the Dark Lord knew it. Otherwise he would not have begged Lily's life.

According to Professor McGonagall, besides herself, the other two who knew of the prophecy were Albus Dumbledore and Severus Snape.

Severus Snape, who had loved Lily before she was Lily Potter, and hated James.

Severus, then, had learned of the prophecy, and told it to the Dark Lord. Which he had done because the prophecy had not described the Potters by name. It had been a riddle, and Severus had solved that riddle only too late.

Ok thus far. A few too many "what ifs" that mostly make sense because the author is starting from the conclusion and working his way backwards, but still.

quote:

But if Severus had been the first to hear the prophecy, and disposed to tell it to the Dark Lord, then why would he also have told Dumbledore or Professor McGonagall?

Therefore Dumbledore or Professor McGonagall had heard it first.

...

Therefore, it was Albus Dumbledore who had arranged for Severus Snape to somehow learn of the prophecy. And Dumbledore himself had solved the riddle successfully, or he would not have selected Severus, who had once loved Lily, as the intermediary.

Dumbledore had deliberately arranged for Lord Voldemort to hear about the prophecy, in hopes of luring him to his death. Perhaps Dumbledore had arranged for Severus to learn only some of the prophecy, or there were other prophecies of which Severus had remained innocent... somehow Dumbledore had known that an immediate attack on the Potters would still lead to Lord Voldemort's immediate defeat, although Lord Voldemort himself had not believed this. Or maybe that had just been a lucky stroke of Dumbledore's insanity, his taste for bizarre plots...

Severus had ended up serving Dumbledore afterward; perhaps the Death Eaters would not look kindly on Severus if Dumbledore revealed his role in their defeat.

Dumbledore had tried to arrange for Harry's mother to be spared. But that part of his plot had failed. And he had knowingly condemned James Potter to his death.

Dumbledore was responsible for the deaths of Harry's parents. If the whole chain of logic was correct. Harry could not, in justice, say that successfully ending the Wizarding War did not count as extenuating circumstances. But somehow this still... bothered him a great deal.

And it was time and past time to ask Draco Malfoy what the other side of that war had to say about the character of Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore.

You know how you probably won't bother to read out all the random bold dialog in a comic (should, by some weird set of circumstances, you are ever in a position to read a comic out loud to begin with)? Same deal with the random italics in this last bit. Overload.

Also, the logic chain is even more tenuous than last time.

Xander77 fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Jun 5, 2017

# ? Jun 5, 2017 10:26

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Yudkowsky posted:

The boy looked at her with strange, sorrowful eyes. "Can you not sneeze without the Headmaster's permission, Professor McGonagall? For I do promise to you that I have good reason to ask, and good reason to keep the question private."

It's amusing to replace Yudkowsky's version of McGonagall with the original in these scenarios and just imagine how little patience she would have for this Harry's bullshit.

# ? Jun 5, 2017 13:28

Cavelcade: Dec 9, 2015; I'm actually a boy!

It only seems tenuous until you realise Yudkowski's world is tiny. It feels so much smaller than Rowling's ever did, despite all his references to other parts of the world. It's very peculiar.

# ? Jun 5, 2017 17:15

Prism: Dec 22, 2007; yospos

I think I missed something, but Yud's writing doesn't deserve me looking at it twice so I'll just ask, and maybe someone who remembers can tell me.

Why can't Harry explain what he did? What about this information is so special that he can't explain to some of the greatest wizards alive (of which Dumbledore is one) what happened?

# ? Jun 5, 2017 23:17

NihilCredo: Jun 6, 2011; iram omni possibili modo preme:
plus una illa te diffamabit, quam multæ virtutes commendabunt

Prism posted:

I think I missed something, but Yud's writing doesn't deserve me looking at it twice so I'll just ask, and maybe someone who remembers can tell me.

Why can't Harry explain what he did? What about this information is so special that he can't explain to some of the greatest wizards alive (of which Dumbledore is one) what happened?

quote:

Godric hadn't told anyone, nor had Rowena if she'd known; there might have been any number of wizards who'd figured it out and kept their mouths shut. You couldn't forget if you knew that was what you were trying to do; once you realized how it worked, the animal form of the Patronus Charm would never work for you again - and most wizards didn't have the right upbringing to turn on Dementors and destroy them -

A very rare moment of not-recklessness and maybe-those-ancient-wizards-knew-a-thing-or-two. Sure, it's totally for the sake of plot convenience ("... and then everybody destroyed all the Dementors, ~fin~"), but well, we'll take what we get.

# ? Jun 6, 2017 00:18

Victorkm: Nov 25, 2001

Yeah, I think it was because Rowena Ravenclaw and Godric Griffendor weren't able to cast a patronus, so it must be that they had discovered Harry's method but never told anyone because it made them unable to cast an animal Patronus, and if they couldn't make Harry's method work, but knew the concepts, it made it so you could no longer protect yourself from Dementors.

# ? Jun 6, 2017 01:54

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 6, 2024 10:04

Prism: Dec 22, 2007; yospos

Victorkm posted:

Yeah, I think it was because Rowena Ravenclaw and Godric Griffendor weren't able to cast a patronus, so it must be that they had discovered Harry's method but never told anyone because it made them unable to cast an animal Patronus, and if they couldn't make Harry's method work, but knew the concepts, it made it so you could no longer protect yourself from Dementors.

Or maybe that they just couldn't do it. I guess him telling Dumbledore even that much - something like 'If I tell you what this is, you might lose the ability to cast a corporeal Patronus; do you still want to know? Is that how magic even works?' - was what Quirrell stopped him from saying.

Either way, even if you knew how Harry's method works but couldn't do it yourself, thus losing your animal Patronus, you'd still presumably have the ability to cast an incorporeal Patronus. You can do both, after all, since Lupin switched to using an incorporeal one to hide who he was (though if Yud didn't read the books he might not have known or remembered that). Not quite as good, but still better defenses against Dementors than most wizards get.

# ? Jun 6, 2017 02:32

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Let's Read: "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality"

«‹›100 »