|
Argas posted:there's a lot more to denazification than making a big show of punishing some war criminals It's pretty off-putting how you're hesitant to defend a legal proceeding that symbolizes the paradigm shift from all-out endorsement of Nazi ideals in Germany to jailing people for displaying swastikas in public. I'm not accusing you of anything, but what exactly are you trying to say here? Things such as the Allied occupation of Germany and the outlawing of several far-right political parties had a paramount impact on the entire denazification process. However, it's undeniable that the Nuremberg trials--which were televised across the world--highly publicized the whole thing, greatly influenced public perception of fascism, and rightfully antagonized the defendants, facilitating the emergence of an environment where a politician such as Hitler could not gain traction in Germany or easily persuade the German people of his fascist ideas, even if it was legal to do so. In other words, the average person can't respect or fear a politician whom they watch get violently beheaded in front of a cheering crowd. Also, it goes without saying that when you eradicate every single founder of a country, it becomes impossible for said founders to assemble and re-establish their regime. Waddle Bourgeoidee fucked around with this message at 01:21 on May 14, 2024 |
#
?
May 13, 2024 05:16
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 20:41 |
|
|
I mean, looking at the world we (not just the US) sure as gently caress didn't do a good job turning people away from extreme right ideas. The trials failed, we didn't hold Japan nearly as accountable, and we sure as gently caress didn't hold ourselves accountable.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 06:13
|
|
|
Not to mention the US put a bunch of high ranking Nazis into positions in NATO, and immediately began funding and arming fascist terrorist groups all over Europe. The ruling elite in the US and Europe were not at all opposed to fascism before the war, and after the Holocaust made it politically untenable, quietly began absorbing a lot ideas and people from from the Third Reich.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 07:31
|
|
|
Waddle Bourgeoidee posted:Also, how the gently caress did Bush get a second term after this huge clusterfuck? I guess conservatives will truly turn a blind eye to anything if it serves their purposes. My family was all republican Bush loving folks by default. But as it became more of a clusterfuck I remember the line in those circles was a mix of "well at least he's taking action" and, similar to Netanyahu I guess, a rep that you can't change leaders during a war. Combined with how lambasted Kerry was those trains of thought were just the end of the conversation for them and all they needed to vote for Bush.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 08:09
|
|
|
From the "I read this bullshit, so now you have to." desk: https://nypost.com/2024/05/10/opinion/just-how-many-of-gazas-civilians-are-entirely-innocent/ quote:Just how many of Gaza's civilians are entirely 'innocent'?
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 11:28
|
|
|
Stringent posted:From the "I read this bullshit, so now you have to." desk: "Alan Dershowitz is a professor emeritus at Harvard..." Yeah, no thanks.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 11:30
|
|
|
Stringent posted:From the "I read this bullshit, so now you have to." desk: No, I don't think I will
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 11:41
|
|
|
An incredible display of actual Nazi logic while invoking the Allied fight against the Nazis. The Dersh does it again!
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 12:18
|
|
|
An absolute hagiography of the IDF, packed to the brim with anally-sourced "facts" about civilian casualties in Gaza. I expected no less from a pedophile Nosferatu like Dershovitz. I don't know the current numbers for Civilian vs Hamas deaths, but it's absolute nonsense that asymmetrical warfare can, or ever has, resulted in more combatant deaths than civilian deaths. Anyone choosing to conduct this sort of warfare is fully aware of the fact that it is going to result in an order of magnitude more innocent deaths than combatant deaths, and indeed, that is entirely the objective in the case of the IDF invading Gaza. E: to clarify, the reason the War on terror era term "collateral civilian deaths" is so insidious is because it implies a few regrettable accidental innocent deaths in pursuit of elimination of a greater number of combatants, when that has NEVER been the reality. The ratio of innocent death is always many times higher than combatant deaths no matter how precise of discerning the attacker claims to be. Svaha fucked around with this message at 14:15 on May 13, 2024 |
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 13:28
|
|
|
My "nobody protects innocent civilians more than I do" shirt is raising a lot of questions answered by the shirt.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 13:37
|
|
|
Svaha posted:I don't know the current numbers for Civilian vs Hamas deaths, but it's absolute nonsense that asymmetrical warfare can, or ever has, resulted in more combatant deaths than civilian deaths. Israel can tell you how many Hamas members they've killed but they can't tell you how many Palestinian civilians they've killed, according to Israeli spokesperson Avi Hyman. They remain confident that they're the most moral army on earth and that they are doing everything they can to reduce civilian casualties despite apparently having no idea how many civilians they've killed.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 13:42
|
|
|
Stringent posted:From the "I read this bullshit, so now you have to." desk: Seems to be part of a definite shift in media narrative.  Or this now-deleted pearl by the Complexity Understander.  Events like the undercover agents raiding a hospital in a wheelchair to murder people, the flour massacres, killing 140 journalists, triple-tapping the World Kitchen aid workers, the mass grave and such get quickly dropped from the news, but the cumulative effect is still a thing. So now they are getting ghoulishly practical and philosophical about it. Is anyone ever REALLY innocent? Maybe war just sucks and it's your fault for being squeamish. And anyway, other countries got bombed even worse and we're all fiiine, what are you still whining about? I expect next they'll just hire Ron Perlman to grumble 'War. War never changes' on the news.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 14:47
|
|
|
War just sucks and people should get over it. Also, October 7th was the worst crime that has ever happened because it happened to me.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 15:05
|
|
|
Anecdotally, "oh we're actually keeping a really good ratio of combatants to civilians" is definitely being pushed hard in pro-Israel spaces in the States. It is of course coupled with trying to discredit Gazan and UN numbers and reporting. admittedly the ratio thing is also a popular talking point in Oct 7 apologism, which I think is a strategic mistake, but whatever, I also think discussing Oct 7 in any detail at all in the context of the invasion is a mistake that takes attention away from what Israel is doing
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 15:17
|
|
|
Stringent posted:From the "I read this bullshit, so now you have to." desk: Coming soon "were all the palestinian kids in israeli death camps innocent? answer isn't that obvious!"
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 15:19
|
|
|
Goatse James Bond posted:Anecdotally, "oh we're actually keeping a really good ratio of combatants to civilians" is definitely being pushed hard in pro-Israel spaces in the States. It is of course coupled with trying to discredit Gazan and UN numbers and reporting. You then have to ask the question: "What actually is a good combatant/civilian ratio?" because the most powerful and technologically advanced military only ever achieved something in the realm of (generously speaking) 1 combatant per 20 civilians. Then you are forced to ask: "Wait, if i have kill 20 innocent people for every supposed evildoer, doesn't that make me the evil one in this situation?" So of course, it's no surprise that everyone involved studiously avoids that question at all costs. Svaha fucked around with this message at 17:47 on May 13, 2024 |
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 17:44
|
|
|
Goatse James Bond posted:Anecdotally, "oh we're actually keeping a really good ratio of combatants to civilians" is definitely being pushed hard in pro-Israel spaces in the States. It is of course coupled with trying to discredit Gazan and UN numbers and reporting. I agree about Oct 7. In terms of morality, it is utterly irrelevant at this point when set beside what has happened and is happening to Gaza. Anyone trying to trot it out needs to be told such, rather than quibbling over who did what and to how many on that specific day.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 17:49
|
|
|
Yawgmoft posted:War just sucks and people should get over it. Also, October 7th was the worst crime that has ever happened because it happened to me. Also everyone killed on 07/10 was a civilian, but everyone killed in Gaza is a member of Hamas.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 18:15
|
|
|
Svaha posted:You then have to ask the question: "What actually is a good combatant/civilian ratio?" Piers Morgan, of all people, asked an Israeli spokesman this question. They were shockingly unable to answer. CW: Piers Morgan, my apologies for posting him and thus sullying the thread with something so profane. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6cRDxIzN-o
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 18:39
|
|
|
Israel has been trying hard to message the civilian:combatant ratio stuff because it's really the only thing they can do to pushback against what everyone knows to be true because they can see it with their own eyes when israel levels entire blocks of a densely populated refugee camp or flattens a hospital. And they are completely full of poo poo about it because there's no way at all that they were turning out hundreds of quality targeting packages a day that had any significant or earnest (or given the idf, even non-significant) collateral damage assessments run on them. Israel's strike planning, whenever they talk about its specifics, has an almost total disregard for civilians. If anything, killing civilians and destroying civil infrastructure is treated as a desirable outcome.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 19:32
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/BarakRavid/status/1790014518828920977quote:Right-wing activists today blocked aid trucks to Gaza at the Tarkamiya checkpoint. This is how it looks: What thoroughly monstrous people settlers are. But don't worry, folks, Jake Sullivan is on it! https://twitter.com/BarakRavid/status/1790097303035891728 quote:White House National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan said that the Biden administration is examining "what tools we have" to respond to the blocking of aid trucks from Jordan passing through Israel on the way to Gaza by right-wing activists. "It is shocking that there are people who attack and loot the trucks that come from Jordan to Gaza. We are talking to the Israelis at the highest levels about this issue. This is completely unacceptable behavior,' said Sullivan
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2024 23:35
|
|
|
We are shocked, SHOCKED to just now at this moment discover that settlers are rear end in a top hat agitators who get off on punching down because God said it was cool and good.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 00:04
|
|
|
Majorian posted:https://twitter.com/BarakRavid/status/1790014518828920977 Are these people settlers? I mean sure they're settlers in the sense that they're citizens of a colonial state but they're not actual members of the Israeli settler movement in the West Bank, right? I figured based on location that they're militantly right-wing Israelis who are not settlers, which is what it seems to say in the Twitter posts as well. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 00:12 on May 14, 2024 |
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 00:10
|
|
|
Civilized Fishbot posted:Are these people settlers? I mean sure they're settlers in the sense that they're citizens of a colonial state but they're not actual members of the Israeli settler movement in the West Bank, right? I figured based on location that they're militantly right-wing Israelis who are not settlers, which is what it seems to say in the Twitter posts as well. This has been a reporting problem on Twitter et al all invasion. I don't know how much of it is people doing a misinformation but it takes on a life of its own where of course it's settlers traveling to blockade Gaza, look at these other mislabeled protests. And then at least once or twice there really were settlers that made a road trip, which doesn't help.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 00:19
|
|
|
The right-wing psychos in the video are part of a group called Order 9, according to Reuters. CNN says that the group is partially made up of settlers. So, to be fair, I can't swear to it that the specific people featured in the video are settlers, but it seems like there's a pretty good chance that some of them are. \/\/\/oh cool! Very cool!\/\/\/ Majorian fucked around with this message at 00:51 on May 14, 2024 |
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 00:36
|
|
|
In this case the aid was passing through the West Bank on its way to Gaza (from Jordan) and it was actually settlers. https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/13/total-outrage-white-house-condemns-israeli-settlers-attack-on-gaza-aid-convoy
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 00:39
|
|
|
Scam Likely posted:We are shocked, SHOCKED to just now at this moment discover that settlers are rear end in a top hat agitators who get off on punching down because God said it was cool and good. These are a petty people. They just want a world where they can legally hurt someone that authorities have sanctioned as permissible to hurt.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 01:04
|
|
|
Herstory Begins Now posted:Israel has been trying hard to message the civilian:combatant ratio stuff because it's really the only thing they can do to pushback against what everyone knows to be true because they can see it with their own eyes when israel levels entire blocks of a densely populated refugee camp or flattens a hospital. I guess this is why the usual suspects are pushing the UN recategorizing deaths into identified and unidentified as "Hamas is lying about the death toll" so hard lately
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 13:26
|
|
|
Goatse James Bond posted:This has been a reporting problem on Twitter et al all invasion. I don't know how much of it is people doing a misinformation but it takes on a life of its own where of course it's settlers traveling to blockade Gaza, look at these other mislabeled protests. Is there really even an important distinction between Israeli settlers and the rest of Israelis if the government and populace fully endorses and supports the settler movement of occupied palestine as a whole? Any behaviors like this could be attributed to settlers because it's about advancing the project and removing Palestinians from land Israel is occupying.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 14:17
|
|
|
National Parks posted:Is there really even an important distinction between Israeli settlers and the rest of Israelis if the government and populace fully endorses and supports the settler movement of occupied palestine as a whole? The populace "in general" doesn't. The settler movement obviously has enough governmental support to continue going, but the Israeli electorate isn't a monolith, and settlement opposition exists. I suppose whether the distinction is "important" depends on what you're trying to do, but the generalization would be extremely crude and likely counterproductive.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 14:44
|
|
|
raminasi posted:The populace "in general" doesn't. The settler movement obviously has enough governmental support to continue going, but the Israeli electorate isn't a monolith, and settlement opposition exists. I suppose whether the distinction is "important" depends on what you're trying to do, but the generalization would be extremely crude and likely counterproductive. as a whole, Israeli society has been unable to curtail the settlement movement or even stop providing direct material support to it. kind of hard to believe they actually object to it in any serious way.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 15:43
|
|
|
It’s the main thing that makes any work pointed at the two-state solution seem like a big charade
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 16:06
|
|
|
punishedkissinger posted:as a whole, Israeli society has been unable to curtail the settlement movement or even stop providing direct material support to it. kind of hard to believe they actually object to it in any serious way. My understanding is that most Israelis don't care either way and just don't want to have to think about it. I don't think this counts as "full endorsement and support" in the same way that I don't think that the population of the USA fully endorsed and supported the Iraq War, and think the distinction matters because the best respective rhetorical approaches to indifference and support are wildly different. It's not obvious over here, but the source of a lot of Israeli indifference is that the atrocities of the settlement and occupation and war simply aren't shown to the general populace, and solving that problem gets harder if you pre-emptively write them off as fellow travelers with settlers.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 16:08
|
|
|
raminasi posted:My understanding is that most Israelis don't care either way and just don't want to have to think about it. I don't think this counts as "full endorsement and support" in the same way that I don't think that the population of the USA fully endorsed and supported the Iraq War, and think the distinction matters because the best respective rhetorical approaches to indifference and support are wildly different. It's not obvious over here, but the source of a lot of Israeli indifference is that the atrocities of the settlement and occupation and war simply aren't shown to the general populace, and solving that problem gets harder if you pre-emptively write them off as fellow travelers with settlers. you seem to be forgetting that israel has universal conscription and every adult israeli has had a direct part in the genocide. it isnt hidden in the slightest, nobody servicing the giant concentration camp wall turrets or shooting up arabs driving on the wrong segregated road is somehow misunderstanding what theyre doing
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 16:28
|
|
|
e: ^^^ also an excellent point. Very difficult to pretend that no one knows about the apartheid when everyone has to serve in the direct military body of apartheid enforcement raminasi posted:My understanding is that most Israelis don't care either way and just don't want to have to think about it. I don't think this counts as "full endorsement and support" in the same way that I don't think that the population of the USA fully endorsed and supported the Iraq War, and think the distinction matters because the best respective rhetorical approaches to indifference and support are wildly different. It's not obvious over here, but the source of a lot of Israeli indifference is that the atrocities of the settlement and occupation and war simply aren't shown to the general populace, and solving that problem gets harder if you pre-emptively write them off as fellow travelers with settlers. It is extremely difficult to believe that the IOF/israeli government is willing and able to suppress images and video from Palestinians within their controlled territory but also don't care about any of that getting out into the rest of the world. In fact, I'll go so far to say that this is explicitly not happening and that Palestinians have been struggling and dying to show anyone and everyone the oppression they are under and are entirely ignored by the rest of the world as well as -- most importantly -- israelis, and have been for generations. In the wake of October 7th it has been made remarkably clear that whatever group of israelis that is against the nature of israel as an apartheid ethnostate is miniscule and completely powerless. Even the israeli protests have been overwhelmingly against Netanyahu for failing or ignoring the hostages instead of for cessation of genocide. While it's true that fewer than half of israelis want immediate post-"""war""" expansion into Gaza or retaking settlements there and in the west bank, the support of settlers is more of a domestic political positioning issue as opposed to issue with israel as an ethnosupremacist expansionist project. There's no reforming zionism into a nicer version of itself. israel is already a far-right terror state, and the only "left"-right divide is "we should conduct our apartheid more gently" vs "gently caress you no we won't", and "gently caress you no we won't" has nearly all of the political power. You wouldn't make these sorts of obsequious motions towards eg. nazi Germans who didn't think so well of this Hitler fellow. Pentecoastal Elites fucked around with this message at 16:34 on May 14, 2024 |
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 16:32
|
|
|
i know we're having fun here but just wanna gently pull up from ascribing shared values to millions of people living within a certain place. feels like it reifies the concept of viewing people according to their birthplace/state which we are trying to avoid imo. i know israelis fighting like hell against their government and conservative neighbors.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 16:36
|
|
precious
|
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...item#1166400525quote:Thousands of Israelis joined an Independence Day march on Tuesday in southern Israel, led by far-right Jewish activists advocating for resettling the Gaza Strip and facilitating the emigration of Palestinians from Gaza.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 16:41
|
|
|
DeadlyMuffin posted:Is anyone saying this, or are you making up someone to be mad at? While this was going on, the public discourse (and at times this thread) has been beleaguered by an asinine conversation about the meaning of the word "support." It's been claimed that Biden doesn't support Israel's genocide, in spite of the fact that he's materially supported it in many ways and has a decades-long record of unstinting support for even the most bloodthirsty Israeli policies. But as long as someone can imagine that Biden does not experience positive emotions in regard to the genocide, they can endlessly argue that he does not "support" it. Last Wednesday, Biden announced that he would halt some arm shipments to Israel if they invade Rafah. He has always had the power to do this, and chose not to exercise it until last Wednesday, for whatever reason or reasons. This makes it clear to me that up until now, Biden has supported Israel's genocide, because if he opposed it, he could have exercised his powers before now. Instead, he and his underlings have continued to provide material and propaganda support for Israel's genocide well past the point where this support became a political liability. Or as another poster put it, I was commenting on observable reality.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 17:46
|
|
|
I wonder how they intend to "encourage" voluntary emigration and what will happen to the palestinians of Gaza they fail to "encourage" to migrate
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 17:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 20:41 |
|
|
Malleum posted:you seem to be forgetting that israel has universal conscription and every adult israeli has had a direct part in the genocide. it isnt hidden in the slightest, nobody servicing the giant concentration camp wall turrets or shooting up arabs driving on the wrong segregated road is somehow misunderstanding what theyre doing And some of those conscripts come back from service committed to ending the occupation. I don't understand the point of lumping them in with pro-occupation Israelis because they're all Israeli anyway - especially because those soldiers themselves see a discrepancy between the reality of the occupation and Israeli public discourse about it: Breaking the Silence posted:While this reality [of the occupation] is well-known to Israeli soldiers and commanders, Israeli society in general continues to turn a blind eye and deny what is being done in its name. Discharged soldiers returning to civilian life discover the gap between the reality they encountered in the territories, and the silence about this reality they find at home.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2024 18:12
|
|