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ronya posted:Nobody expects Labour leadership candidates to voice hardline opinions on the ethics and morality of former Yugoslavian nationhood however; I/P has a special status. Miftan suggested, many threads ago, that the Labour left views it as a white settler colonial question rather than as yet another foreign conflict amongst untold numbers of foreign conflicts; this strikes me as essentially correct. I certainly agree with Miftan's suggestion, but I also feel that the UK bears quite a bit of responsibility for laying the foundations for the current shitshow, which is why I am more interested in I/P than some of the other foreign conflicts where we were less involved. Edit: I cannot snipe, so 73 is the number of seconds it took the Challenger space shuttle to explode after launch.
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Feb 16, 2020 12:13
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Yeah, I think it's this. Like with South Africa, it's not just that they established a white supremacist settler state, it's that they did it by kicking out the British Empire and replacing the 'no withdrawal until stable majority rule' policy with settler ethnonationalism. Anyone who supports a two-state solution would presumably have supported Vorster's 'Citizenship Act' which gave black Africans 25% of their country back. Kassad posted:Oh so that's why Dawkins was defending eugenics on Twitter  question waiting in the halls.Darth Walrus posted:This is a thread, and there's lots more wild poo poo in there:  but the long term contraception thing is interesting, Colorado has actually created good outcomes by heavily promoting the copper coil at all high schools as a >99% effective 5 year non-hormonal method, massive reductions in teen pregnancies and terminations. They also managed to sell it in a way that didn't make them sound like sociopaths.I'm not sure why that's so difficult for these types  Jedit posted:She's also a member of the Triratna order. 
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Feb 16, 2020 12:25
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Prince John posted:I certainly agree with Miftan's suggestion, but I also feel that the UK bears quite a bit of responsibility for laying the foundations for the current shitshow, which is why I am more interested in I/P than some of the other foreign conflicts where we were less involved. I think what gets me is this idea that's advanced by conservative Jews (Israel and diaspora) that people target Israel unfairly due to antisemitism - because they hate Jews - but people have very different reasons to focus on I/P instead of other atrocities just like PJ says. Nobody accuses people focusing on Sudan of being anti-Sudanese, for example. I/P is also more widely discussed, so of course people are more likely to have opinions on it.
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Feb 16, 2020 12:26
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Plenty of Afrikaners accused the British opposed to apartheid of just wanting to stick them in hell camps again, so it's understandable. Also the Pope was supposedly in on it. The big difference I think is that nobody in the USA believed that South Africa had to be kept under minority rule to make white Jesus come back, so you only got the Turner Diaries wingnuts voicing opinions on it rather than the whole of the Evangelical movement.
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Feb 16, 2020 12:30
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I propose eugenics against anyone who thinks Twitter is a tool worth using
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Feb 16, 2020 12:30
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god drat the guardian's coverage of the labour trans crap has been a shitshow. don't know what i was expecting, to be fair Candidates "criticised" in a "row" over daring to insult A Woman's Place and LGB Alliance, said criticism coming from... A Woman's Place and LGB Alliance. Critics of them have criticisms of them but I don't see the need to look into that particularly, they personally claim to not hate anyone so what's the problem. why are my dogs making so much noise all of a sudden Candidates are split over a controversial pledge card calling on the party to expel """""transphobic""""" members. Women's Place say they are very nice actually, here is a series of tweets from them none of which contain the words "we hate trans people" so it is impossible to say. Fido will you calm down what's gotten into you Owen Jones says some nice things, while Gaby Hinsliff spends most of her article decrying people being mean to each other, briefly mentioning solutions trans people agree with while claiming they're reasonable centrist compromises that nobody is questioning ever: Gaby Hinsliff posted:Yet it’s still not too late to find common ground. No compassionate human being should want a woman who has been raped or brutalised to feel traumatised all over again by sharing counselling or refuge services with someone they perceive as a threat. Even a person who poses no danger whatsoever can inadvertently frighten a traumatised person, if something about them – a sound, a scent, a habit – triggers flashbacks. But nobody should want trans people to feel unsafe or cast out, and barring a trans woman from women’s services seems the cruellest of personal repudiations. That much is common ground, and beyond the boiling hate of social media, people are building on it. is it now The Observer reheats the first article with an even greater proportion dedicated to unquestioningly repeating A Woman's Place's claims, who are just asking questions, and want to be shown reason and evidence against their concerns for women's rights and sex-based protections, and furthermore- (post ends as I am mauled to death by a pack of hyperstimulated canines) also is it too late to say nice things about Ms Adequate's clothes experience. My first time out in women's clothes I was wearing a dress under a large jacket in a foreign country to the corner shop with a friend at 10pm, where I would never see anyone else who saw me ever again in my life, and I was still spending the entire time afraid to even accidentally look anyone in the eye for fear i would see what they were thinking of me. that was about a year ago, and months of very gradual small steps later i'm now able to amble around town and go to work in skirts while only being moderately self-conscious. i've been lucky in that I haven't got any proper abuse yet but at least in my experience it does get easier, gradually. be trans do crimes.
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Feb 16, 2020 12:32
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Dick Dorkins reaches the natural conclusion of his career:- https://twitter.com/richarddawkins/status/1228943686953664512?s=21
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Feb 16, 2020 12:47
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They said to me, they said you can't make better people. I said we're gonna make the best people, we made the best cows, we made the best pigs, we made the best horses, and now we're gonna make the best people. It's gonna be yuge-enics.
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Feb 16, 2020 12:53
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who was caroline flack
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Feb 16, 2020 13:27
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Guavanaut posted:Yeah, I think it's this. Like with South Africa, it's not just that they established a white supremacist settler state, it's that they did it by kicking out the British Empire and replacing the 'no withdrawal until stable majority rule' policy with settler ethnonationalism. 'White' is questionable, and not even in the same way Afrikaaners could and did contest the ability of the FCO to bargain away their position, much less Ulster British to assert Britishness... as I understand it, if elections in Israel were held amongst those of European descent alone, their conservatives would not be close to a voting majority (although the activists who assert a Mizrahi identity often hail from the left, those actually of Mizrahi descent often occupy peripheral towns far away from the multicultural cities, are less educated, and support Likud...). As the wave of post-colonial states go, Israel is already now in its fifth generation of political leadership; frames of reference do evolve... The curiosity of a labour party being unable to command majorities amongst the working classes for ethnic/sub-ethnic cultural reasons should be familiar to us, of course. Likewise activists being unable to command relevance amongst those for whom they wish to speak. These aren't really alien phenomena, but because it's happening elsewhere, white British politics hasn't quite noticed It bears more than a little resemblance to the movement of the longstanding question/obsession of the magnitude of the 'colonial drain' or ethnic divide-and-conquer during the Raj from the dying Indian socialist left to the rising Indian ethnonationalist right, whilst their British leftie correspondents sometimes don't notice and are occasionally played for useful idiots in the Indian dynamic. But at some point the British side will notice that the political terrain has shifted, I think... the greatest opposition to the viciousness and transparent self-serving greed of European imperialism was not over its adventures in India or Africa, but in China, as a reformist project for more than a century, and it faded remarkably quickly as the winds began to shift.
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Feb 16, 2020 13:35
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bump_fn posted:who was caroline flack Host on Love Island who beat one of her boyfriends and dated a seventeen year old. Not a particularly great loss to the world to be perfectly blunt with you.
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Feb 16, 2020 13:38
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ronya posted:The curiosity of a labour party being unable to command majorities amongst the working classes for ethnic/sub-ethnic cultural reasons should be familiar to us, of course. Likewise activists being unable to command relevance amongst those for whom they wish to speak. These aren't really alien phenomena, but because it's happening elsewhere, white British politics hasn't quite noticed What I think you are getting at is "You foolish activists don't speak for people you claim to represent". To which the obvious rejoinder is, we clearly speak for some, but not all.
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Feb 16, 2020 13:41
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ronya posted:'White' is questionable There once was a time when high caste Indians were considered 'whiter' than Irish because something something skull shape, and the apartheid system considered Japanese people to be white, whereas Chinese people were 'non-whites', which Japanese ambassadors of the time were more than happy to go along with. 'Whiteness' is, I think, more to do with whether the other person has something that you want but can't steal.
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Feb 16, 2020 13:43
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bionic vapour boy posted:Not a particularly great loss to the world to be perfectly blunt with you. Of course, she's already been found guilty in trial by media, sentenced to ordeal by Twitter, and now she's dead. She might well have been a very lovely person, but there's definitely important lessons to be learned here. e: I didn't know who she was until yesterday either
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Feb 16, 2020 13:45
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I got a text from RLB, which told me how to opt out as well. Yay. Also got a pleading one from Starmer last night asking to support him and if not tell him who I was supporting. I was drunk and responded rather colourfully to that.
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Feb 16, 2020 13:49
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bionic vapour boy posted:Host on Love Island who beat one of her boyfriends and dated a seventeen year old. Actually the reporter on the news on TV said it was hard to underestimate how much of a shock and a loss it is. I'd never heard of her either. How have the people saying they can't find words not heard of 
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Feb 16, 2020 13:49
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Mebh posted:I got a text from RLB, which told me how to opt out as well. Yay Weirdly enough she was the only one who didn't ask for a negative response or to tell her who else I was going for.
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Feb 16, 2020 13:51
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Mebh posted:I got a text from RLB, which told me how to opt out as well. Yay.
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Feb 16, 2020 13:53
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Also, should it not be hard to overestimate a loss? 
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Feb 16, 2020 13:58
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Al-Saqr posted:Dick Dorkins reaches the natural conclusion of his career:- You know I think he is trying to say the infrastructure is there already to kill humans mass scale.
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Feb 16, 2020 14:00
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TACD posted:Sorry if this has already been asked but is there a good place to lodge a formal complaint about this text spam? The Labour complaints page seems geared toward complaining about a specific person rather than the membership communications in general, but I want to make it clear to whoever's organising this that I'm basically one more spammy text from giving up my membership just to make it stop. drat! How many texts have you gotten? I've only gotten the two. I clicked the link on RLB's one and it asked if I wanted to volunteer for her phone bank. Talking to strangers about anything other than video games is anathema to me so I ran the gently caress away from that. I'm the worst activist 
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Feb 16, 2020 14:01
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rebecca bong daily
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Feb 16, 2020 14:12
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Feb 16, 2020 14:18
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So my MP voted for Keir and Angela Rayner. Is that a standard combo?
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Feb 16, 2020 14:25
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Analysing Israeli politics through "Labour" and "working class" is a non-starter since it all hinges on ww2 trauma and the I/P conflict. Literally, 2011 had massive protests against the way the economy was structured and the price of cheese and it all amounted to.. gently caress all! It's exactly the same because any I/P or haredi concerns override it every single election and parties only pay the most general lip service to "things should be cheaper"
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Feb 16, 2020 14:28
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Is it kind of like the UK, the idea of what should happen and an overarching sense of itself butting heads against the fact that poo poo is getting worse for everyone?
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Feb 16, 2020 14:31
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Josef bugman posted:Is it kind of like the UK, the idea of what should happen and an overarching sense of itself butting heads against the fact that poo poo is getting worse for everyone? Some of the prominent protestor are now MKs and one of them did a good job and isn't standing anymore due to internal politics. Generally people got it out of their system and have resigned to the price of living, imo. It never comes up in elections because the parties like I said pay lip service to "things should be better", nobody asks them about it, and everyone pivots to I/P or the haredi issues in order to score points with their base.
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Feb 16, 2020 14:34
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Al-Saqr posted:Dick Dorkins reaches the natural conclusion of his career:- It's weird because he invented the concept of memes, which pretty clearly establishes why genetics isn't very important for human society.
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Feb 16, 2020 14:38
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TACD posted:Sorry if this has already been asked but is there a good place to lodge a formal complaint about this text spam? The Labour complaints page seems geared toward complaining about a specific person rather than the membership communications in general, but I want to make it clear to whoever's organising this that I'm basically one more spammy text from giving up my membership just to make it stop. All the texts from the campaigns are pre-arranged with the Labour Party. I think each campaign is allowed two texts each from now on (though don’t quote me on that), of which these ones this weekend are the first. This only applies to the central Labour data though. If you’re on another list, for instance the Momentum database, those organisations are allowed to text you as much as they like.
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Feb 16, 2020 14:39
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Not gonna lie it's really depressing and sad to see Labour internalize and apologize for the completely made up zionist anti-semitism smear campaign on them, they shouldve just followed their american comrades example and told people to gently caress off and whipped their entire base into choosing between socialism or Israeli Barbarism and treated supporters and sympathizers of Israel as the blood-enemy of the left they actually are. They blinked and let the fascists cower them. American Socialists have tougher backbones and are willing to make Israel and their local proxies and evangelical supporters their enemy and fight them tooth and nail. Never Apologize, Never give an inch.
Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 14:46 on Feb 16, 2020 |
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Feb 16, 2020 14:40
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Josef bugman posted:So my MP voted for Keir and Angela Rayner. This seems like the PLP centrist ticket yes.
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Feb 16, 2020 14:47
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Al-Saqr posted:Not gonna lie it's really depressing and sad to see Labour internalize and apologize for the completely made up zionist anti-semitism smear campaign on them, they shouldve just followed their american comrades example and told people to gently caress off and whipped their entire base into choosing between socialism or Israeli Barbarism and treated supporters and sympathizers of Israel as the blood-enemy of the left they actually are. They blinked and let the fascists cower them. American Socialists have tougher backbones and are willing to make Israel and their local proxies and evangelical supporters their enemy and fight them tooth and nail. Never Apologize, Never give an inch. The US also has a bigger presence of Jews who are critical of Israel, whereas the UK only has really fringe outfits like Jewdas who are easily ignored. The VAST majority of British Jews are pro-Israel's current policies and those that aren't have no media presence. This isn't necessarily true in the US, despite obviously leaning more pro Israel than anti.
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Feb 16, 2020 14:48
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Al-Saqr posted:Not gonna lie it's really depressing and sad to see Labour internalize and apologize for the completely made up zionist anti-semitism smear campaign on them, they shouldve just followed their american comrades example and told people to gently caress off and whipped their entire base into choosing between socialism or Israeli Barbarism and treated supporters and sympathizers of Israel as the blood-enemy of the left they actually are. They blinked and let the fascists cower them. American Socialists have tougher backbones and are willing to make Israel and their local proxies and evangelical supporters their enemy and fight them tooth and nail. Never Apologize, Never give an inch. This seems like it's much easier to do when the left candidate is actually Jewish, and the majority of Jews in your country are not conservative. Neither of those things are true of the UK.
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Feb 16, 2020 14:50
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marktheando posted:This seems like it's much easier to do when the left candidate is actually Jewish, and the majority of Jews in your country are not conservative. Neither of those things are true of the UK. Most US Jews are Democrats over republican afaik, but they still are mostly pro Israel as opposed to anti. Bernie being Jewish is a massive help though, yes.
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Feb 16, 2020 14:52
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Guavanaut posted:What he completely misses is the moral dimension of 'for what?' We can breed a cow to produce a lot more meat (and there's a moral dimension to that) but what are we going to breed humans to produce more of? If it's meat then there's a big Doesn't matter what it's "for", there's a big question in every caseloving around with the lives of sentient beings such as humans is, like, kinda different to breeding plants or even breeding horses and cows. Apparently Dawkins and others need reminding of this, because of course they loving do
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Feb 16, 2020 14:53
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Yeah, you see people saying: "despite all these apologies, we're still getting accused of anti-semitism!" when I suspect it's really the case that because of all these apologies, Labour's still getting accused of anti-semitism. If at the start of all this, Labour had said loudly and firmly: "No we are not. gently caress off.", I honestly think the whole controversy would have gone away.
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Feb 16, 2020 14:54
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ask Mélenchon how well that's worked
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Feb 16, 2020 14:58
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ronya posted:ask Mélenchon how well that's worked It can't be any worse Reminder the point we're at is that the entire left is anti-semitic. Down to the very ideology of being leftist. That is the current accusation.
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Feb 16, 2020 15:00
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Pistol_Pete posted:Yeah, you see people saying: "despite all these apologies, we're still getting accused of anti-semitism!" when I suspect it's really the case that because of all these apologies, Labour's still getting accused of anti-semitism. If at the start of all this, Labour had said loudly and firmly: "No we are not. gently caress off.", I honestly think the whole controversy would have gone away. I really don't think it would have. The smear machine operated without any input from anyone in Labour, except those who were part of it. Whether Corbyn or anyone in his team apologised didn't matter much. If they did, it was written off as perfunctory. If they didn't it showed they were refusing to tackle the issue. It's just bullying on a national scale with input from a lot of actors who have a lot of power and influence and I don't know how anyone could effectively handle it.
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Feb 16, 2020 15:02
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crispix posted:I really don't think it would have. The smear machine operated without any input from anyone in Labour, except those who were part of it. Whether Corbyn or anyone in his team apologised didn't matter much. If they did, it was written off as perfunctory. If they didn't it showed they were refusing to tackle the issue. Nobody could have, and I struggle to believe anyone will be able to in future. This isn't going to go away until lefties in Labour go away, and even then it'll be kept on the back burner as a functional bat to beat future lefties with.
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Feb 16, 2020 15:07
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