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Fight Club Sandwich posted:If you want a followup to FFX's battle system then you'd do a lot better to pick up Persona 3 or Persona 4 instead of FFX2. Yeah, FFX's battle system has basically been done by every other RPG series besides Final Fantasy. You could also play Lord of the Rings The RPG which literally copied the system to do a lovely LOTR fanfiction.
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Jun 7, 2014 00:36
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BottledBodhisvata posted:Yeah, FFX's battle system has basically been done by every other RPG series besides Final Fantasy. You could also play Lord of the Rings The RPG which literally copied the system to do a lovely LOTR fanfiction. Complete with you and your cast of generic losers helping Gandalf fight the Balrog. It takes about an hour and a half since it has about 45000 HP.
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Jun 7, 2014 01:00
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I just rewatched the ending of FF9 on Youtube since the game was brought up earlier and I really do miss the style of the older FF games. Bravely Default was a great callback with a generally likable cast compared to what we got with the FF13 trilogy. I remember hating Steiner when I first played the game but he grew on me once he got through his character arc and I always liked Freya (but rarely used her in combat since Steiner and Vivi were the dream duo).
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Jun 7, 2014 01:18
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TARDISman posted:Complete with you and your cast of generic losers helping Gandalf fight the Balrog. It takes about an hour and a half since it has about 45000 HP. That number is totally meaningless out of context.
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Jun 7, 2014 02:11
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Dross posted:That number is totally meaningless out of context. Fair enough, the previous boss had about 3,000 HP, the Balrog has about 75,000 (My memory's awful), and the only thing that makes it moderately tolerable is Gandalf dealing about 5,000 damage a pop. Everyone else is basically window dressing dealing about 1,000 on a good hit.
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Jun 7, 2014 02:16
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^^^^^ And if you're attacking instead of just defending the Balrog can basicaly one-shot people who aren't Gandalf if I remember that fight correctly.TARDISman posted:Complete with you and your cast of generic losers helping Gandalf fight the Balrog. It takes about an hour and a half since it has about 45000 HP. But afterwards you can go back and play as the Balrog, murdering Gandalf and the generic idiot characters. 
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Jun 7, 2014 05:28
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I kinda wanna try out 4 heroes of light. Anything I should know before I get into it?
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Jun 7, 2014 05:36
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Tired Moritz posted:I kinda wanna try out 4 heroes of light. Anything I should know before I get into it? It is really slow to start off and don't bother grinding, it doesn't help much. Try to adjust your hats before you grind for levels.
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Jun 7, 2014 05:41
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It does the Final Fantasy XIII thing where you have groups of two for like half the game, so you should be prepared for the frustration that goes along with that.
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Jun 7, 2014 05:42
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Momomo posted:It does the Final Fantasy XIII thing where you have groups of two for like half the game, so you should be prepared for the frustration that goes along with that. Wouldn't two healers and two tanks/DDs take care of that issue?
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Jun 7, 2014 06:25
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Tired Moritz posted:I kinda wanna try out 4 heroes of light. Anything I should know before I get into it? It has level scaling enemies, but unlike FF8 that means you can gently caress yourself over and make stuff basically unkillable.
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Jun 7, 2014 07:02
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ImpAtom posted:It is really slow to start off and don't bother grinding, it doesn't help much. Try to adjust your hats before you grind for levels. 2) It's fairly apparent if you pay attention, but at release, a lot of players were angry that they couldn't specify enemies to target. Front Row attacks target left to right, Back Row targets right to left. This persists even if there's only one row of enemies. 3) Holy poo poo do not grind.
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Jun 7, 2014 07:38
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For the first half of the game you won't have a full party. Better get used to it. Steal temporary party members' clothes. There's no particular benefit to it, but do it.
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Jun 7, 2014 07:41
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I picked up FF13 on a lark from a drug store cheapo bin, figuring it had been long enough that I could have my own opinions on it and like... It's good? Like sure, weapon upgrades looks tedious as hell, the crystarium may as well just be a flat job-based progression system and the and battle system is sort of hard to follow... But I really like all of these characters? Sazh is wonderful, Lightning's a LOT more interesting than I hoped, Hope's deal actually kind of makes sense? Like when you think about it rationally? Snow is an idiot and people are right to hate him? Like... Idk, i'm really enjoying it. It's also gorgeous and the music is great. Like, mechanically it's overproduced and underdeveloped. But it's a really good character-driven story.
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Jun 7, 2014 08:04
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The big secret is that final fantasy XIII is the third best final fantasy, behind VII and X-2 and no one wants to admit it.
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Jun 7, 2014 08:14
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Great Lakes Log posted:The big secret is that final fantasy XIII is the third best final fantasy, behind VII and X-2 and no one wants to admit it. I'd happily give that title to five other entries in the series before XIII. That game was a hot mess.
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Jun 7, 2014 08:19
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Rei_ posted:I picked up FF13 on a lark from a drug store cheapo bin, figuring it had been long enough that I could have my own opinions on it and like... It's good? Like sure, weapon upgrades looks tedious as hell, the crystarium may as well just be a flat job-based progression system and the and battle system is sort of hard to follow... But I really like all of these characters? Sazh is wonderful, Lightning's a LOT more interesting than I hoped, Hope's deal actually kind of makes sense? Like when you think about it rationally? Snow is an idiot and people are right to hate him? Like... Idk, i'm really enjoying it. It's also gorgeous and the music is great. Do yourself a favor and take the time to understand what makes the battle system enjoyable(it's going ham with staggers and trying to beat fights as fast as you can, gently caress medics unless you're about to die) because the last third of the game has an absolute mess of a plot so it's only really enjoyable if you're liking the combat.
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Jun 7, 2014 08:20
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I think the most valuable piece of info about that game is that you shouldn't go Commando/Ravager/Ravager, you should go Saboteur/Ravager/Ravager, with you controlling the Sab. This makes it a million times less tedious to go through.
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Jun 7, 2014 08:25
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Tired Moritz posted:I kinda wanna try out 4 heroes of light. Anything I should know before I get into it? (Also, there's a fight you want to steal from and then lose, repeatedly, to grind the best gems to upgrade your hats. But you shouldn't. Please don't.)
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Jun 7, 2014 08:39
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Rei_ posted:I picked up FF13 on a lark from a drug store cheapo bin, figuring it had been long enough that I could have my own opinions on it and like... It's good? Like sure, weapon upgrades looks tedious as hell, the crystarium may as well just be a flat job-based progression system and the and battle system is sort of hard to follow... But I really like all of these characters? Sazh is wonderful, Lightning's a LOT more interesting than I hoped, Hope's deal actually kind of makes sense? Like when you think about it rationally? Snow is an idiot and people are right to hate him? Like... Idk, i'm really enjoying it. It's also gorgeous and the music is great. I'm glad you're enjoying it. When I first played the game, I felt much the same way. If you take the first half of the game as kind of its own seperate story, with all the disparate character arcs, it'd almost be pretty solid, they do try a lot to develop all these characters...it's just... Well, let's just see how you feel halfway through the game.
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Jun 7, 2014 08:52
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I like all the statements about liking FFXIII phrased as questions, like "Is this normal?" FFXIII isn't some universally hated game like Sim City, FFIII DS, or Mass Effect 3's last third. It was just universally considered a disappointment, between the 20-hour tutorial and story losing focus and coherence at some point. The story is also a downer but not in some poignantly tragic and beautiful way but in more of a weird forced and contrived way. The characters are serviceable for the most part but considering characters are usually the driving force behind FF stories, serviceable isn't enough when so much else breaks down.
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Jun 7, 2014 09:40
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It is a video game, so the story is fittingly nonsens. You fight and the numbers go up, but it is a very satisfying and developed build. The only downside to releasing the XIII trilogy for next gen is realizing] that XIII was the beat, and it only went downhill from there.
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Jun 7, 2014 10:18
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A lot of people didn't like the characters at all. I liked them quite a lot, but if you don't, and you spend fifty hours with them, it's going to leave a much more negative impression. It doesn't help that a full half of them (Snow, Hope, Vanille) have 'this person is annoying, let's look at why' as the basis of their character arc. Bear in mind also that the goon consensus on the game will have been filtered through four years of negative reinforcement. Peel fucked around with this message at 10:41 on Jun 7, 2014 |
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Jun 7, 2014 10:36
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Great Lakes Log posted:It is a video game, so the story is fittingly nonsens. This isn't how Square used to operate. There were flaws, just like your post, but games by Square used to have a theme and story to lead you to discover more. Their newer projects are complete garbage, again like your post, but it didn't typically end up this way.
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Jun 7, 2014 10:41
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It seems like the writers just get way too caught up in world-building, to the point that I'm pretty surprised anyone would call XIII character-driven. Like the characters have arcs and stuff, sure, but they are honestly pretty flat characters for the most part. Mostly there's just a bunch of borderline technobabble about a bunch of stuff that the game hasn't given any reason to really care about, and then once in a while it's like they realized they needed to cram in some really hamfisted maudlin plot elements to keep the train on the tracks. FF plots have always been pretty bog-standard at their core, but there's always good window dressing and usually that and the characters more than make up for a mediocre plot. In XIII it felt like the characters were so bland that I had no choice but to focus on the world and the plot. The plot was an absolute trainwreck and the world is pretty, but it's buried under way too many layers of fantasy wank. It suffers from that common fantasy / sci-fi pitfall of every single thing needing to be new and different and amazing and all of it needs to have some explanation using a bunch of made-up words for no goddamn reason. That's why games like VII, VIII (for the first half of the game, anyways) and IX worked so well. The world is what it is and there's just enough explaining to get the point across. There's Mako and Mist and Guardian Forces and poo poo, and you learn enough about them to understand the gist of how the world operates, but there's no super-convuluted exposition dumps that just go further and further down the rabbit hole with a bunch of terms cobbled together out of a pile of unused vowels. XIII makes it feel like the people living in this world are just as loving confused by every day objects and occurrences as the player is. Edit: Basically, it feels like lately they've been so focused on making a story full of twists and (usually groan-worthy) emotional rollercoaster moments that they've forgotten that even the simplest stories are worth playing through if the characters are great. I think IX is basically the perfect example of that, imo.
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Jun 7, 2014 11:14
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Final Fantasy VII literally has CGI cutscenes dedicated to giving you long infodumps about how the world works on multiple occasions. FFXIII's plot is dumb. That is basically all there is to it. People have demonstrated on a regular basis that they are capable of understanding fictional or semi-fictional worlds with complex or convoluted worldsettings or tons of characters and terms which have to be remembered. Many of the most popular books, television shows and movies are capable of doing this without their audiences getting upset. Audience empathy is an important thing but the complexity of the world setting doesn't hinder that. It is a matter of execution more than anything else. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 11:26 on Jun 7, 2014 |
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Jun 7, 2014 11:19
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Problem with XIII (and XII) was summons were pointless.
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Jun 7, 2014 11:22
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Facepalm Ranger posted:Problem with XIII (and XII) was summons were pointless. Summons have been pointless for a long time, except the rare few times they were OP as gently caress. Mechanically, they're just kind of badly designed. When they first debuted they were effectively high-level AoE Magic spells which made them good but not great. Any given summon spells had a huge MP requirement for something that a lower-level spell could usually damage. There's a brief period where summons are the highest damage output, especially in an AoE way, but that goes out the window pretty quick in any game with reflect bouncing, doublecasting, or even just games where the damage output of regular spells gets super-high. You've got a few summons who escape this due to utility like Carbuncle but still. AoE damage is also largely less useful against bosses because often they are either single target, have a protected body part, or will counter if you hit the wrong thing which can make the less-customizable summons a liability. All the controllable summons are either pretty crap or hilariously OP with no real middle ground, usually trending towards the hilariously crap side of the list. They just don't have a good place in the system. If they're pure damage, regular magic pretty much always outdoes them and (especially in the PSX era) takes less time to pull off due to lengthy-rear end cutscenes. They really need to figure out something new to do with summons because they've sucked for a really long time. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 11:47 on Jun 7, 2014 |
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Jun 7, 2014 11:41
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ImpAtom posted:Summons have been pointless for a long time, except the rare few times they were OP as gently caress. Summons feel like they should be unique to the world and not your every day Fire spell. I wouldn't mind if they became exclusive to limit break type moves.
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Jun 7, 2014 11:49
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I think VII got the balance right for a good portion of the game didn't it? Obviously at the end Knights of the Round is game destroying, but I feel like for a lot of the game the summons were powerful enough to be worth a good chunk of MP, and the animations weren't overly long
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Jun 7, 2014 11:51
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ImpAtom posted:Summons have been pointless for a long time, except the rare few times they were OP as gently caress. Summons were dope in FF12 because even if you never used them, they were hidden in various places in the world and you could totally accidentally wander too far into a cave or get lost in the sewers and bam, ancient god beast is rarin' to smack your rear end down. Then you beat him and he's your Pokemon.
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Jun 7, 2014 11:52
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ImpAtom posted:Final Fantasy VII literally has CGI cutscenes dedicated to giving you long infodumps about how the world works on multiple occasions. The difference, to me at least, is that VII's world-building felt more organic. There was obviously some stuff that had to be explained to the audience at some point, but XIII takes it to the extreme and feels the need to explain literally everything. Also, VII's plot is (mostly) pretty straightforward and was actually fairly well-executed for its time. And yes, there is plenty of fiction that requires a twenty page appendix of terminology to wade through, but the vast majority of it is poo poo. And generally, when you have a bunch of made-up terms, they can at least be puzzled out a bit. Look at Avatar and "unobtainium". Totally made up, but I know just from looking at the word that it's an element of some kind, and it's hard to get. There's no more explanation necessary. The "pitfall" that I mentioned a lot of crappy fantasy and sci-fi running into is that they call it some barely-pronounceable gibberish with half a dozen extraneous apostrophes and then want to tell you about how it's made of some other gibberish and how all of it's linked to X which in turn is responsible for Y, except none of that really matters because oops it has no bearing on the plot whatsoever. I definitely agree that the plot to XIII is just pure poo poo, and that's certainly the biggest thing holding it back, but it's compounded by making it needlessly complicated on top of everything else. That's why I said I think they got so wrapped up in the layers of worldbuilding that they forgot to actually tell a coherent story with well-written characters. quote:I think VII got the balance right for a good portion of the game didn't it? Obviously at the end Knights of the Round is game destroying, but I feel like for a lot of the game the summons were powerful enough to be worth a good chunk of MP, and the animations weren't overly long Nah, they were useless in VII too. I cast them all once to see the animations but otherwise they are totally outclassed. KotR and maybe Hades for the Ruby Weapon fight are the only ones I ever ended up using. As soon as you're on the world map you can get Matra Magic, which is like 5 or 6 times cheaper than even the cheapest summon and instagibs every random enemy you find for the next couple hours. Also the summon animations are way too long and you could just use regular attacks to deal way more damage in the same length of time. You can also abuse enemy AI with the Midgar Zolom near the chocobo ranch and get Beta early, which is even more overpowered. Honestly VII's combat was kind of poorly designed, if you kept your weapons upgraded regular attacks and a couple enemy skills generally did way more damage than anything aside from limit breaks with very few exceptions. Grizzled Patriarch fucked around with this message at 12:03 on Jun 7, 2014 |
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Jun 7, 2014 11:55
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Paperhouse posted:I think VII got the balance right for a good portion of the game didn't it? Obviously at the end Knights of the Round is game destroying, but I feel like for a lot of the game the summons were powerful enough to be worth a good chunk of MP, and the animations weren't overly long FFVII was the debut of the overly-long animations. Bahamut (you get relatively early and has two longer-and-more-ornate-upgrades) has a 30 second animation for each casting. It was way faster and more effective to use regular spells, specially if you used Enemy Skill/Blue Magic which was way more effective for the MP cost and with a significantly shorter attack animation.
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Jun 7, 2014 11:56
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The most bizarre thing about FF13 to me is that I never got a sense of what day-to-day life is like in that world. I'm not asking for a day in the life of random citizen number five or anything, but I mean I just literally can't imagine a completely normal person who just wakes up at 7, brushes their fal'teeth, showers, goes to their job, comes home at 5, watches TV, drinks some booze, and conks out at 10. Like I don't know if that's what they were going for but near as I can tell, average joes just doesn't exist in FF13's universe. Everyone's always running or fighting or exploding or turning into crystal. Bizarrely, Lightning Returns was actually better about this, despite taking place in the face of an oncoming apocalypse.
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Jun 7, 2014 11:57
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:It seems like the writers just get way too caught up in world-building, to the point that I'm pretty surprised anyone would call XIII character-driven. I feel the opposite. They don't really bother developing the worlds of FF13 that much, just instead having you run through all these pretty random areas while just telling you how cool their worlds are in cutscenes/datalogue. The entire story is based around these characters and their reactions to what's going on, and despite all my making GBS threads on the game I do think the game's story works best when it has these characters bonding over their situation. Then again, I actually liked all the characters, even Hope and Snow (though mainly just for how dumb he is). It's just a shame they really drag out the middle since nothing really happens between the party splitting up and Palomporom besides a few key character development scenes stretched into four to six lengthy dungeons. And of course the last third or so just becomes complete nonsense. Decent battle system, though. Anyway, since I wanted to do something while waiting for the Four Job Fiesta to start, I decided to do yet another FF challenge I'll likely end up abandoning: A FF3DS solo run. Doing the PSP version so I can actually get the bonus stuff. Just unlocked the first set of jobs, and so far it's been alright. First dungeon is solo anyway, and I ended up grinding to L5 and to Job Level 14 to get extra hits, which was enough to let me reach the Wight Slayer and dominate the second dungeon, with three hits from the Wight Slayer pretty much instant-killing everything. Still took several tries due to bad luck and then Jinn. Jinn acts twice a turn, a favorite staple of this game's enemies, with a powerful physical attack and a kinda painful Fire spell. Physical attacks weren't that great, so I just went to the back row with two shields to weaken his hits, and then cast Blizzard three times and he died. I can already tell that the biggest obstacle for this challenge is my inexperience, only having played through this game a long time ago and not even reaching the end, so I'll probably have to play through dungeons multiple times just to learn boss patterns (because, of course, there's no loving god drat save points) to be able to plan my strategy. Another problem is that only one job has great Vitality, the Black Belt, and that's not until the last crystal. Considering I'm already up to L11 just from random encounters giving big EXP, and considering running away is pretty much a suicide button in this game, and I'm worried that I may not get the best HP gains. Still, maybe this run will be as interesting as my NES solo run. e: Oh wow, lot of posts popped up while I wrote that. Summons either just outshadow Black Magic entirely besides maybe Flare (FF3 - FF5) or just seem useless besides utility use. I did like FF6 making them once-per-battle, though regular magic still killed the non-utility ones (Hmmm, Bahamut or Ultima?). FF8 had a neat concept with having them determine your abilities and stuff, but actually summoning them was just a waste of time when there's so much better ways to kill stuff. FF10 had them as their own characters and probably has one of the better implementations with them, making them a solid strategy for a lot of battles and adding a bit more complexity to things. Summoners are nice in FF14, where they do damage over time and the best pet has an ability that lengthens their spells, though that means the other two pets never get used. It sounds like pets will be rebalanced a bit so that they will all be useful (though the tank pet can be surprisingly useful in a pinch), and there will probably be more pets coming as well. Mega64 fucked around with this message at 12:07 on Jun 7, 2014 |
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Jun 7, 2014 11:58
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:The difference, to me at least, is that VII's world-building felt more organic. There was obviously some stuff that had to be explained to the audience at some point, but XIII takes it to the extreme and feels the need to explain literally everything. Also, VII's plot is (mostly) pretty straightforward and was actually fairly well-executed for its time. I do think FFVII is better told but it literally has several long scenes (including the infamous Cloud flashback) which are just "here we are going to sit you down and explain things to you very very slowly. There are some optional things but in a lot of cases they are things which probably shouldn't be optional. (The Zack cutscene is a big one here, especially since it is shoved in an out of a way corner you'll never think to explore and wasn't even in the original Japanese release of the game!) In comparison FFXIII is kind of the opposite. It flat-out won't tell you things unless you look in the optional datalogs. Over-explaining is not one of the things I'd say FFXIII is guilty of considering that its ending relies on an obscure thing mentioned in a datalog hidden behind an optional boss which is still goddamn incomprehensible unless you read a developer interview explaining it. Grizzled Patriarch posted:And yes, there is plenty of fiction that requires a twenty page appendix of terminology to wade through, but the vast majority of it is poo poo. And generally, when you have a bunch of made-up terms, they can at least be puzzled out a bit. Good or poo poo, it doesn't really matter in that a lot of it doesn't confuse the readers. You can be talking about Lord of the Rings or Dune or some lovely Star Trek novel, it's pretty rare for people to get really and honestly confused by made-up names. I mean, honestly, even a lot of existing words are going to be foreign or alien to readers/viewers/players. "Esper" and "Eidolon" probably look more like fictional cool words to the average 14 year old and offer little in the way of explaining what the hell one is just based on the word itself.
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Jun 7, 2014 12:06
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The problem with any sort of "world-building" in FF13 is that, for starters, all of it is irrelevant. Nothing of importance in the setting of the first 13 game is at all relevant in the subsequent ones (except for the existence of Cocoon itself I guess). So even if you get into the world and its settings and trappings, it doesn't really have any pay off. Most of the world's details and the interesting minutae is stuck in boring datalogs, giving the world an inorganic feel. It also doesn't help that you never SEE any of it. Final Fantasy IX has probably the best setting in any FF game, and this is primarily because you can explore the world, discover colorful characters tucked away in all areas, you get a sense of slowly exploring a living, breathing setting, with cities you can explore and hidden locations to discover, quirky dialog and all that fun stuff. In 13, you literally talk to nobody but antagonists and party members. You don't ever have a chance to just look around and see what's around you, you're just told what's happening as you trudge along from story bullet point to story bullet point. EDIT: I guess the cosmology involving Etro is important overall, but I don't even think that gets really explained or even really mentioned in 13-1 at all. Etro is never mentioned by name in the main script, at the very least, and the existence of gods is only briefly mentioned to explain why motorcycle lesbians are descending from heaven to kill you in gimmick battles, and as a point of contention for the Fal'Cie, who are as clueless about poo poo as you are. BottledBodhisvata fucked around with this message at 12:14 on Jun 7, 2014 |
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Jun 7, 2014 12:08
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The FFXIII trilogy is bizarre as hell in that each of the three games completely reinvents the world setting and throws out almost everything from the previous setting. If not for the reoccuring characters they could have been their own games and nobody could tell. I mean the villain's plot in FFXIII technically comes to a head in LR but in such a convoluted way it doesn't matter and nobody even comments on it.
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Jun 7, 2014 12:27
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Endorph posted:The most bizarre thing about FF13 to me is that I never got a sense of what day-to-day life is like in that world. I'm not asking for a day in the life of random citizen number five or anything, but I mean I just literally can't imagine a completely normal person who just wakes up at 7, brushes their fal'teeth, showers, goes to their job, comes home at 5, watches TV, drinks some booze, and conks out at 10. Like I don't know if that's what they were going for but near as I can tell, average joes just doesn't exist in FF13's universe. Everyone's always running or fighting or exploding or turning into crystal. According to interviews, the original world design of FFXIII was much more ambitious. Cocoon was heavily based off America in that would feature people of different eternities and have a number of wildly different urban and suburban landscapes. It would have people going about their lives in cities and smaller rural areas. However, much of this was cut due to problems associated with the game engine. Based off information given by SE and a breakdown of FFXIV 1.0 on PC, the Crystal Tools engine was not well-suited to large areas full of many character models. The engine was geared toward close ups in small environments, such as cutscenes. Its toolchain appeared to be heavily influenced by the tools used by CGI houses, such as Pixar, Dreamworks, and SE's own Visualworks. The engine was suited more for cutscenes created by high-powered renderfarms used by CGI companies rather than real time gameplay on game consoles and home PCs. You might recall Naoki Yoshida talk about how FFXIV 1.0 was so unoptimized that potted plants would have as much shader code as character models.
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Jun 7, 2014 14:48
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Life in Coccoon: Wake Up Go chill with some bros at the beach Watch some F1 racing Get cursed by an otherworldly god Watch some fireworks Smile and nod poitely at the oppressive government regime Go to sleep
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Jun 7, 2014 14:54
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