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Endorph posted:also i need to repeat again, kirito actually struggles a lot and later on there are even fights he loses. like i realize defending sword art online is not the purpose of this thread but its weird how much that series is just something people who dont like it made up in their heads rather than the many flaws the actual series has. Point I was trying to get at is that I don’t think “wish fulfillment” characters are inherently bad things to like and certainly not unique to Japan (And the people that deride the types of characters like that they often enjoy in other forms), even if yeah people are a bit quick to throw Kirito in with those kinds of characters sometimes. Raxivace fucked around with this message at 23:12 on May 27, 2021 |
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May 27, 2021 23:04
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i mean kirito's a wish fulfillment character, but wish fulfillment is more complicated than 'just wins all the time.' feeling like your struggles and difficulties might actually lead to rewards is also a form of wish fulfillment, since that's not necessarily true in real life.
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May 27, 2021 23:15
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chiasaur11 posted:Kira, meanwhile, doesn't get proper grounding to convince the viewers that even what he did is impressive, given the circumstances. We don't see Kira talk about how the old machine now feels so slow compared to what he's used to. We don't have enemy pilots laugh at someone being crazy enough to fly a museum piece on a modern battlefield before being shocked at the monster ace somehow getting through their defenses. We don't see an ace pilot with proper establishing scenes lose to Kira pulling off some stunt that only the hero of the Bloody Valentine War would have dared pull off. You are strongly misremembering the scene I think. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvnsPaWtkR8 Kira flies up and is *still kicking rear end in the Strike* He is still pulling off his 'not shooting people's cockpits' thing in the Aile Strike and the first damage he takes is blocking a shot that was going to hit the Eternal and the second shot is a stray shot as he's going into the Eternal. You're misremembering it as "oh yeah he just went up and got his rear end kicked" and not "He was actually defeating enemies and avoiding shots until he Support Defended a giant beam shot which blew off his Gundam's arms." The Ootori version of the fight is more blunt but even there the first damage Kira takes is when he blocks an anti-ship laser and gets his arm blown off, he just gets even more kills beforehand. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Qawv-o6k9g ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:26 on May 27, 2021 |
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May 27, 2021 23:20
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Endorph posted:i mean kirito's a wish fulfillment character, but wish fulfillment is more complicated than 'just wins all the time.' feeling like your struggles and difficulties might actually lead to rewards is also a form of wish fulfillment, since that's not necessarily true in real life. There's also question of whose wish exactly is being fulfilled too which I think is often assumed in these cases by critics. Like for longest time I read online that Kirito was "male power fantasy" or whatever (Because he "wins all the time", all the girls want him etc.), and yet all the biggest Kirito fans I've known are women and I've never personally seen criticisms of his character address existence of female fans of his. These things are more nuanced than they get credit for.
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May 27, 2021 23:30
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Raxivace posted:We're in complete agreement here. I mean the honest answer to this is "There are people who enjoy their heroes incredibly talented and frequently winning." It isn't something that really goes by gender lines or anything like that. For some people the fantasy is a hero who is immensely talented and capable and they like that character. Sometimes they like them as a bad boy, sometimes they like them as a hero, but there's a reason that kind of archetype remains for eternity. For some people it's just fun to see someone defeat bad guys and overcome challenges as a form of power fantasy because part of the power fantasy there is someone being able to tell bad or cruel people to gently caress off and that is somethings you can agree on no matter how you identify. "It's not realistic" or "There's no danger" is a selling point because what some people want from their fantasy is happy endings and catharsis with minimal tension and that's A-OK. There are stories that can do that very well. I'm not sure I think SEED or SOA are that kind of story myself but it's pretty clear that a lot of people do and I can't deny that I have my own things I enjoy like that. Hell one of the things I enjoy in video games is the fact that by necessity they allow you to succeed and overcome challenges in ways that defy the pacing of stories and you get tones you normally wouldn't get out of that.
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May 27, 2021 23:36
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ImpAtom posted:
As has been discussed upthread, SEED is weird. Or at least, the context of SEED Destiny makes it really weird. Kira in SEED has a personality made for easy viewer insertion (not that he's void of personality, to be clear. Just that the personality he has is designed to be easily sympathetic, rather than having a lot of rough edges like Amuro or Kamille), he's the best pilot and programmer, he has girls falling for him, etc. But he's also a failure, more than Amuro. While Amuro kills Lalah and loses friends and loved ones, he ends the series by saving the entire crew of the White Base and setting aside his grudge with Char. He has somewhere to go home to, and he saved what he most wanted to protect. Meanwhile, Kira's last big attempt at heroism, saving Flay, failed. He didn't do anything to patch the divide between baselines and coordinators, didn't participate in the saving-the-Earth part of the final mission, didn't refute Rau. Destiny even starts with a focus on his failures. And, since SEED is by far the more popular series of the two, that suggests that people like Kira, in part, because of his failures. Destiny, meanwhile, leaves his failures and inadequacies intact (he still can't argue his way out of a paper bag), but tries to portray him as a more messianic figure. It's part of the whole thing where the CE is one of the bleakest Gundam settings, even more than the apocalyptic hellscape that is the Universal Century, but it tries to act like it's optimistic and hopeful. (Also, watched the scene in the Strike again. The argument that Kira looks like a mediocre pilot there stands.)
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May 28, 2021 00:44
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What's an ootari, is there yet another remaster of Seed destiny?
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May 28, 2021 01:01
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Tae posted:What's an ootari, is there yet another remaster of Seed destiny? It's a backpack the Strike Rouge has in the HD version of SEED Destiny.
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May 28, 2021 01:04
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It’s basically the IWSP but with bigger wings, and also pink
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May 28, 2021 01:52
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ImpAtom posted:You are strongly misremembering the scene I think. Yeah, if anything these fights are some of the best examples of Kira actually being a scary rear end pilot independent of his machine. Even horribly outnumbered, having to defend a battleship, and having to give up his weapons(tosses his beam rifle to Andy, uses his backpack to shield the ship in the Ootori version), he's still basically mowing his way through opponents and almost every time he takes a hit or loses part of the Strike he shoots down or horribly mangles the suit of whoever did the damage.
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May 28, 2021 02:48
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We've been over this before, none of us have actually watched Gundam.
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May 28, 2021 02:58
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Argas posted:We've been over this before, none of us have actually watched Gundam. Oh is that Transformers?
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May 28, 2021 03:09
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Kanos posted:Yeah, if anything these fights are some of the best examples of Kira actually being a scary rear end pilot independent of his machine. Even horribly outnumbered, having to defend a battleship, and having to give up his weapons(tosses his beam rifle to Andy, uses his backpack to shield the ship in the Ootori version), he's still basically mowing his way through opponents and almost every time he takes a hit or loses part of the Strike he shoots down or horribly mangles the suit of whoever did the damage. The rifle went to Andy when Kira got his arm blown off, not due to an intentional throw. And you can try to upsell the scene all you want. I just watched both of them before making my first posts on the scene. Some of it, I admit, is presentation. If Destiny was a show like Zeta, where three on one odds with mooks was something even the (non-Amuro) ace pilots comment on as an issue, then Kira taking on a swarm of mooks at once wouldn't need to be upsold. We'd know from the past that this is impressive, so just seeing it would be fine. But SEED has the same basic combat aesthetics as Wing, where swarms of mooks are basically just chaff to remind you how cool the leads are. In that context, you need to have at least a couple lines or shots to emphasize the Strike's weakness or the difficulty of the situation. Instead, the original scene just shows mooks chewing up Kira in less than a minute, with him only taking a couple of them in the exchange. Meanwhile, Andy is right next to him doing pretty much fine. That doesn't make Kira look good. And from the heavy edits to the HD recut, I think it's pretty clear that the staff on the show thought the same way.
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May 28, 2021 03:22
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One fight thing I think Seed does really well is their individual space ship battles. The opening episodes where the Archangel is getting chased down by Rau and the last set of battles between the Archangel and the Dominion are, to me, legitimately pretty tense and good. Also wow, totally didn't know Destiny started off with a close up of Shinn's dead fam 2 ish minutes in.
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May 28, 2021 05:11
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This feels like an irreconcilable "you're seeing something I'm not seeing" scenario because I'm watching that clip and in the original version Kira is completely untouched until he has to tank a hit meant for the Eternal, and intercepting that hit is likewise why he's basically taken out of the fight in the remastered version since it costs him all his weaponry
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May 28, 2021 05:15
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Let's all just agree that Wing is better than Seed
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May 28, 2021 05:31
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chiasaur11 posted:Instead, the original scene just shows mooks chewing up Kira in less than a minute, with him only taking a couple of them in the exchange. Meanwhile, Andy is right next to him doing pretty much fine. So the thing is here you are literally arguing against provable reality. Again Kira does not take a single hit until he tanks a shot that was going to hit the Eternal which damages his suit. He gets hit one more time and that is when he is literally going into the Eternal and a stray shot knocks off a leg. Prior to that he is shown effortlessly shooting off weapons and weaving through enemy blasts without trouble. You are letting your understandable dislike for SEED make you ignore what is actually happening onscreen.
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May 28, 2021 06:08
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Durandal's dub VA being the same as Wufei's is pretty great to me since he's giving me shady vibes. I'll probably switch back to the original track since I really don't like dub Athrun much so far. Also I like Lunamaria a lot so far but I'm only 4 episodes deep so who knows. Shinn is okay.
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May 28, 2021 06:46
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Tulalip Tulips posted:Durandal's dub VA being the same as Wufei's is pretty great to me since he's giving me shady vibes. I'll probably switch back to the original track since I really don't like dub Athrun much so far. Durandal's Japanese VA is Char's No matter the language he's shady as gently caress.
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May 28, 2021 06:52
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chiasaur11 posted:The rifle went to Andy when Kira got his arm blown off, not due to an intentional throw. And you can try to upsell the scene all you want. I just watched both of them before making my first posts on the scene. He intentionally throws the rifle to Andy in the Ootori version. I also don't know what you watched, since functionally all of the damage Kira takes is because he's soaking shots meant for other people, with the two exceptions being Kira taking a hit after he's packless in the Ootori version(and promptly and immediately killing the suit that did it), and the Strike getting smacked while entering the hangar in both versions. Kanos fucked around with this message at 07:22 on May 28, 2021 |
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May 28, 2021 07:15
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If you're in Australia and got a LOT of money to burn, Scorptec has the Asus Gundam collaboration hardware for preorder.
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May 28, 2021 07:22
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Neddy Seagoon posted:If you're in Australia and got a LOT of money to burn, Scorptec has the Asus Gundam collaboration hardware for preorder. Kind of disappointing that the motherboard doesn't look like the Tem Ray circuit.
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May 28, 2021 07:25
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Just lol at that Lord Djibril dude sitting in his chair watching world wide coverage of Junius Seven falling on earth while stroking a cat like a James Bond villian. It's great, intentionally or unintentionally.
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May 28, 2021 07:30
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Kanos posted:Yeah, if anything these fights are some of the best examples of Kira actually being a scary rear end pilot independent of his machine. Even horribly outnumbered, having to defend a battleship, and having to give up his weapons(tosses his beam rifle to Andy, uses his backpack to shield the ship in the Ootori version), he's still basically mowing his way through opponents and almost every time he takes a hit or loses part of the Strike he shoots down or horribly mangles the suit of whoever did the damage. People kinda forget how quickly tech in CE moves, strike by this point is beneath all the basic suits used by anyone in the setting, it's sole initial advantage of being able to conventional fire is completely negated by even the shittiest units using beam weapons, yeah Andy does better but Gaia could rip apart the strike with absolute ease if the pilots were equal.
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May 28, 2021 10:56
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ImpAtom posted:So the thing is here you are literally arguing against provable reality. Again Kira does not take a single hit until he tanks a shot that was going to hit the Eternal which damages his suit. He gets hit one more time and that is when he is literally going into the Eternal and a stray shot knocks off a leg. Prior to that he is shown effortlessly shooting off weapons and weaving through enemy blasts without trouble. You are letting your understandable dislike for SEED make you ignore what is actually happening onscreen. I think the point he's making is that while Kira can style on grunts endlessly with little trouble using an advanced suit like the Freedom, he can only do so for a very limited time in a more conventional suit like the Strike, and that he quickly runs into trouble when trying his usual schtick in such a machine. Thus showing that he relies on a strong machine to do so. He can still beat most people's rear end individually, but cannot beat everyone, everywhere forever and instead has to sacrifice parts of his suit to keep it going even for a short while. The Ootori version (which is the only version I can see on a quick search of YouTube) has him last just about a minute dead, and he has to sacrifice the Ootori pack and his sword to do that, as well as an enemy he tries to block when he can't dodge taking out the unit's shield and arm. The fact he sacrifices the Ootori pack in particular seeming odd, since it has a beam cannon and railgun as well as wings that'd seem to make it essentially Freedom-Lite, and there's no indication they're out of ammo or anything and yet rather than fire either of those guns to take out the ZAKU threatening the Eternal, he throws the Ootori pack itself at the ZAKU. Depriving himself of multiple weapons and some maneuverability to destroy one suit. TheCoach posted:People kinda forget how quickly tech in CE moves, strike by this point is beneath all the basic suits used by anyone in the setting, it's sole initial advantage of being able to conventional fire is completely negated by even the shittiest units using beam weapons, yeah Andy does better but Gaia could rip apart the strike with absolute ease if the pilots were equal. The thing is, Destiny intentionally portrays the Strike as not that far off the technological curve of the time by having the main protagonist use what is basically Strike 2.0, including having similar packs, throughout the first half. The protagonist even beats the Freedom using that suit. Nor does the Strike seem like it's any slower than the competition (ZAKUs and GOUFs in that scene) or as if it has trouble dodging the majority of shots. The Ootori pack is a Freedom pack for the Strike too, even if it's not named Strike Freedom. The unit just isn't invincible, and beams quickly wear through the shield's beam coating. If anything, the Strike with Ootori pack seems like it's on a pretty even footing with the ZAFT suits of the time.
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May 28, 2021 11:25
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https://twitter.com/HobbySite/status/1398241871462158337/photo/1 seems like the new seed thing is a spinoff manga and a msv line? so nothign earth shattering, though maybe the manga will get as much promotion and focus as astray did. Timeline wise, it takes place between SEED and Destiny.
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May 28, 2021 12:58
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There's not a lot of CE suits I like, basically just the Destiny and the Strike, but those aren't really overwhelming winners for me either. The new suit in that promo shot? I am LOVING it. It's like if the F91 and Xi had a baby.
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May 28, 2021 13:01
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ACES CURE PLANES posted:There's not a lot of CE suits I like, basically just the Destiny and the Strike, but those aren't really overwhelming winners for me either. 
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May 28, 2021 13:03
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ACES CURE PLANES posted:There's not a lot of CE suits I like, basically just the Destiny and the Strike, but those aren't really overwhelming winners for me either. To me it looks more like a Zeta Gundam equivalent for the SEED timeline. I like it too.
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May 28, 2021 13:05
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Neddy Seagoon posted:To me it looks more like a Zeta Gundam equivalent for the SEED timeline.
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May 28, 2021 13:06
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Endorph posted:The zeta comparison checks out since it has a jet mode. That's what I was basing it off of  . But yeah, just the general design of the flight form and the old Strike == RX-78-02 equivalency gives it a bit of a Zeta vibe to me.
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May 28, 2021 13:08
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The Xi/F91 thing for me is like, it's got very F91 style VSBR-like railguns on the hips, large shoulders with vents, a rather greeble-y 'stomach' area with a large protruding curved-to-a-point chest. And for the Xi, oversized front shoulder armor that drapes down, ankle wings, and oversized wrist cuffs containing weapons. Either way though, I'm super hyped for that MG in a way I haven't been for a kit in a WHILE. Holy poo poo.
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May 28, 2021 13:15
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http://www.gundam-seed.net/ Theatrical movie sequel to Destiny, details to be announced at a later date
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May 28, 2021 13:17
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Endorph posted:https://twitter.com/HobbySite/status/1398241871462158337/photo/1 what's the cast of Dynazenon doing in Seed
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May 28, 2021 13:25
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Not entirely correct, the new MSV is in addition to a film, a game, and lord knows what else. https://bandai-hobby.net/site/seed/ http://www.gundam-seed.net/
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May 28, 2021 14:09
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I'm sure they could have fit a few more spikes on that monstrosity if they really put their backs into it.
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May 28, 2021 14:54
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Don't worry, they've already got you covered fam
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May 28, 2021 15:10
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How many backpacks will they sell for this one.
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May 28, 2021 15:12
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From the announcement page it sounds like it's compatible with the old striker packs, so the answer is yes.
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May 28, 2021 15:22
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tsob posted:Don't worry, they've already got you covered fam It's called the eclipse because it'll blind you if you look directly at it.
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May 28, 2021 15:48
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