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I'll just check in as the person hated every previous 3D Zelda, and loved botw in spite of hating the combat. So, yeah, I cheesed the hell out of every instance of combat and still felt I had a lot of really satisfying gameplay to work with. I was in early on the cooking conversation wishing it had more depth and integration, but I really really appreciated it as not only fun in itself, but also as a gameplay mechanic which one could opt into to skip considered combat, as I didn't like the latter.
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Jun 29, 2019 17:52
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:I'll just check in as the person hated every previous 3D Zelda, and loved botw in spite of hating the combat. So, yeah, I cheesed the hell out of every instance of combat and still felt I had a lot of really satisfying gameplay to work with. I was in early on the cooking conversation wishing it had more depth and integration, but I really really appreciated it as not only fun in itself, but also a gameplay alternative to considered combat, as I didn't like the latter. this is a good point. infinite healing from food also makes the game accessible to people with severe mental disabilities
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Jun 29, 2019 17:54
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:I'll just check in as the person hated every previous 3D Zelda, and loved botw in spite of hating the combat. So, yeah, I cheesed the hell out of every instance of combat and still felt I had a lot of really satisfying gameplay to work with. I was in early on the cooking conversation wishing it had more depth and integration, but I really really appreciated it as not only fun in itself, but also a gameplay alternative to considered combat, as I didn't like the latter. No but for real, looking it as an alternative manner of completion in a similar vein to the way stealth vs combat is commonly portrayed in games is a good point I hadn't considered.
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Jun 29, 2019 17:54
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It is fundamentally appropriate in a game designed around exploring a cool and beautiful world that the player can compensate for a lack of skill with preparation.
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Jun 29, 2019 17:56
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nrook posted:It is fundamentally appropriate in a game designed around exploring a cool and beautiful world that the player can compensate for a lack of skill with preparation. I'll accept the label of lack of skill pretty easy, though to my own mind I just don't find the finer points of the combat that enjoyable. Should also be noted that BOTW really does offer a lot played that way, the stealth is quite good for a game where it isn't a main focus, and most of the goals you are trying to achieve require no combat. So the points I cheesed with superior equipment and consumables amount to maybe a few dozen necessary encounters (even taking a fairly completionist approach).
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Jun 29, 2019 18:03
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And I thought timeline discussions were bad.
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Jun 29, 2019 18:07
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Greader posted:Like, I doubt new players instantly know where to rush off to get themselves a billion max-hp food items, and even when they stumble across them they probably only notice them whenever they sit down at a cooking pot hours later, go "oh, neat" make some and then continue exploring. This is a good point. I discovered that hearty items filled all of your hearts right around the time I stopped being able to use regular cooked food to fill all my hearts (around 7 or 8 hearts), which made sense to me. Also I'm loving terrible at games so it's nice that I can still kill a Lynel and feel like I accomplished something, even if I had to go get 8 hearty durians beforehand.
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Jun 29, 2019 18:07
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Now I'm imagining a game where they doubled down on the idea by letting you completely bypass combat AND stealth for most encounters by letting you bribe the monsters to open their treasure chests using delicious treats
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Jun 29, 2019 18:10
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Cicero posted:Now I'm imagining a game where they doubled down on the idea by letting you completely bypass combat AND stealth for most encounters by letting you bribe the monsters to open their treasure chests using delicious treats I would play this game.
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Jun 29, 2019 18:13
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Cicero posted:Now I'm imagining a game where they doubled down on the idea by letting you completely bypass combat AND stealth for most encounters by letting you bribe the monsters to open their treasure chests using delicious treats That would be hilarious, cute, and more satisfying than brute-forcing the combat.
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Jun 29, 2019 18:13
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Lack of inventory space was one thing I didn't like about Paper Mario. I hardly ever ate food in BotW on my first run, but I'm glad it was there for when I wanted to. Guess we just see games differently.
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Jun 29, 2019 18:29
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To be honest, if some Nintendo designer frantically called me one day and asked me to tell them how to design a patch for food in this game, I'd still change a couple of thing. I'd make the food inventory a little smaller and maybe remove the full hp heal from the food that gives you. I would also make it so that instead of each "subtype" of food (like, fruits, fish, meat, etc.) would not just add an extra heart or two but be much more significant, encouraging you to use more varied recipes. This would also be somehow integrated with the various buff giving versions of each type of ingredient so that if you say, use the flower, fish and what else that gives you strength, you would get an item that gives back a lot of health AND has a pretty good attack boost (instead of just using the same item five times that has the best increase). The idea would be that you can make decent healing items somewhat early to help with combat, and as you explore the world more you find all the different ingredients that lets you make more powerful buffing food to reward the exploration. It would also encourage experimenting a bit to see what food types there are and can be combined. I was kinda sad when I found out how you could make all these variations based on adding salt or mushrooms and such to a dish but they would make barely any difference. (Though I suppose I would still keep the ability to just stockpile a billion cooked apples. If nothing else, the animation of eating like twenty apples in a row as Link keeps stuffing his face is hilarious to me) Also, I would absolutely love a version of this game where you can just put a bunch of apples, meat and such on the ground at camps to befriend the enemies. Hell, let me carefully walk up to a Lynel with a big chunk of meat and once he accepts it he lets me ride him (and scare the horse stables guy when I try to register him  )
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Jun 29, 2019 18:32
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For sure, the point is that the gameplay required to force your way through fights should be somewhat commensurate to the gameplay required to just fight well. I don't think anyone would argue that they got cooking and food quite right.
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Jun 29, 2019 18:36
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I just wish master mode wasn't so lazy. That was the perfect opportunity to balance stuff like the food system to make the game more challenging in a fun way but they just didn't do anything of the sort.
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Jun 29, 2019 18:38
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The cooking should have required that I load Overcooked on the Nintendo Switch and invited all of my friends over to bake an apple and also the apples just make me sick when I load Zelda Breath back up and Link just starts puking everywhere but all the monsters get so disgusted by it that they start puking everywhere too and since I started puking first my "debuff" wears off first so I can go slaughter all of the adorable bokoblins but maybe some monsters eat the puke and that's how they get distracted? I don't know, tell Miyamoto to call me if you get a minute to ask him
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Jun 29, 2019 18:49
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Gambit from the X-Men posted:The cooking should have required that I load Overcooked on the Nintendo Switch and invited all of my friends over to bake an apple and also the apples just make me sick when I load Zelda Breath back up and Link just starts puking everywhere but all the monsters get so disgusted by it that they start puking everywhere too and since I started puking first my "debuff" wears off first so I can go slaughter all of the adorable bokoblins but maybe some monsters eat the puke and that's how they get distracted? I don't know, tell Miyamoto to call me if you get a minute to ask him Someone call their uncle at Nintendo to give this man a job!
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Jun 29, 2019 18:55
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Single-player games are designed to allow the player to complete them.
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Jun 29, 2019 19:00
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Greader posted:Someone call their uncle at Nintendo to give this man a job! Please My family has been surviving off of one can of beans for two weeks
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Jun 29, 2019 19:02
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RBA-Wintrow posted:Based on this speedrun: The player seems to be Japanese yet he is playing game in French. Are French cutscenes shorter?
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Jun 29, 2019 19:11
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lezard_valeth posted:The player seems to be Japanese yet he is playing game in French. Are French cutscenes shorter? Yes, the French voice acting saves a few seconds over every other language so its the go to for the speedrun.
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Jun 29, 2019 19:16
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I'm at a campground and just had a little IRL link (some random kid) who we were playing with attempt to cook our soccer ball https://i.imgur.com/r4y8yfy_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium Nintendo please add this recipe to the game
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Jun 29, 2019 19:20
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Looks like the food chat just blew up, huh? It seems like a bit of a divisive topic. One interesting idea I agree with is buffing the potency of special recipes. For example, making fruit pies could triple (or even quadruple) the effect of the fruit in the pie, so a banana pie made with two bananas would give a bonus equivalent to six (or eight) bananas on their own. Essentially, the special recipes would be multiplicative rather than additive, and allow for bigger boosts. This may help to encourage experimenting with food and giving better rewards for more complex recipes than "toss five durians into a pot and call it a day".
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Jun 29, 2019 20:40
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I know we already went over this from many different angles, but i want to ask: what is the difference between picking a hard difficulty mode when starting a game, and limiting yourself from using some mechanic (that makes the game easier) within the game? I seriously believe there is none. The difficulty choice being an "official" part of the game just makes people treat it differently. In both cases you're willingly making things harder on yourself for the purposes of a more interesting challenge.
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Jun 29, 2019 20:42
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Amppelix posted:I know we already went over this from many different angles, but i want to ask: what is the difference between picking a hard difficulty mode when starting a game, and limiting yourself from using some mechanic (that makes the game easier) within the game? I seriously believe there is none. The difficulty choice being an "official" part of the game just makes people treat it differently. In both cases you're willingly making things harder on yourself for the purposes of a more interesting challenge. Well, one involves the player choosing from a menu of options designed by the creator, whereas the other asks the player to design the difficulty settings on their own. Individual players do not have the benefit of knowing the exact underlying mechanics, nor can they feasibly test their own self-imposed challenges many hundreds or thousands of times to determine exactly what changes make the challenge more interesting and what amount to just needless frustration.
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Jun 29, 2019 20:48
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Amppelix posted:I know we already went over this from many different angles, but i want to ask: what is the difference between picking a hard difficulty mode when starting a game, and limiting yourself from using some mechanic (that makes the game easier) within the game? I seriously believe there is none. The difficulty choice being an "official" part of the game just makes people treat it differently. In both cases you're willingly making things harder on yourself for the purposes of a more interesting challenge. The hard mode option is a discrete, universally available option. If you say "I played X game at Y difficulty", everyone who played that difficulty had the same experience that you did and can compare notes on the game you both played. If you say "I played X game but I used my own vague rule Y", that's not really going to mean much to anyone else. If it's something with very intuitive and obvious limits maybe a small community will form around a specific type of run and can discuss what playing the game that way is like, but that doesn't really work for something like a "eat food but not very much and only when you don't think it's making the game too easy run." Personally, I am bad at BOTW but I am also lazy so the lack of food counteracted the overpoweredness of the food.
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Jun 29, 2019 21:02
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Amppelix posted:I know we already went over this from many different angles, but i want to ask: what is the difference between picking a hard difficulty mode when starting a game, and limiting yourself from using some mechanic (that makes the game easier) within the game? I seriously believe there is none. The difficulty choice being an "official" part of the game just makes people treat it differently. In both cases you're willingly making things harder on yourself for the purposes of a more interesting challenge. In XCOM, the difficulty impacts enemy stats as well; for example sectoids on normal have 3 hp and can be guaranteed killed with a grenade. They have 4 on higher difficulties and cannot be - forcing you to dedicate at least two soldiers to killing one unless you luck out. You can't do that yourself. Other enemies are similarly tweaked, and some don't use certain abilities on lower difficulties.
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Jun 29, 2019 21:10
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Amppelix posted:I know we already went over this from many different angles, but i want to ask: what is the difference between picking a hard difficulty mode when starting a game, and limiting yourself from using some mechanic (that makes the game easier) within the game? I seriously believe there is none. Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh? The player can't menually increase or decrease damage values in 99% of video games, adjust enemy placement, types of enemies encountered, item or weapon drops, or any of those sorts of things. Like, most games with higher difficulty levels don't just prevent you from using certain game mechanics that you could have optionally ignored anyways. If anything, difficult games that I like the most are ones that force you to engage with the game's systems in a way that you weren't required to on easier difficulties. BotW's Master Mode is such a significantly different experience to normal mode that it would be impossible to replicate the experience by intentionally trying to limit yourself through the normal mode gameplay
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Jun 29, 2019 21:15
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Zoran posted:Well, one involves the player choosing from a menu of options designed by the creator, whereas the other asks the player to design the difficulty settings on their own. Individual players do not have the benefit of knowing the exact underlying mechanics, nor can they feasibly test their own self-imposed challenges many hundreds or thousands of times to determine exactly what changes make the challenge more interesting and what amount to just needless frustration. Or you could put it that it asks the player to find out what they like doing that also lets them win easier.
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Jun 29, 2019 21:20
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The other lovely thing about Master Mode is that it still has the same base issue of BotW being designed around the idea you could spam food, because even in a playthrough where you don't eat at all, loading screens take loving F O R E V E R and so re-doing fights because you don't want to eat after a boss leaves you with one heart after a single hit is really annoying. I'd be totally fine with the self-imposed food challenges if loading screens were faster
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Jun 29, 2019 21:26
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:The player can't menually increase or decrease damage values in 99% of video games, adjust enemy placement, types of enemies encountered, item or weapon drops, or any of those sorts of things. Like, most games with higher difficulty levels don't just prevent you from using certain game mechanics that you could have optionally ignored anyways. If anything, difficult games that I like the most are ones that force you to engage with the game's systems in a way that you weren't required to on easier difficulties. BotW's Master Mode is such a significantly different experience to normal mode that it would be impossible to replicate the experience by intentionally trying to limit yourself through the normal mode gameplay
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Jun 29, 2019 21:51
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Cicero posted:Now I'm imagining a game where they doubled down on the idea by letting you completely bypass combat AND stealth for most encounters by letting you bribe the monsters to open their treasure chests using delicious treats It's a secret to everybody.
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Jun 29, 2019 23:27
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Most self-imposed challenges look like "don't engage with mechanic X in the game", so they tend to be less fun than a full-fledged difficulty mode which still lets you engage with modified versions of all the game's systems. Difficulty settings which take the form of in-game decisions are fine but rare; the only one that comes to mind if Paper Mario: TTYD's "Double Pain" badge, which doubled the damage Mario took for no benefit and thus was a smooth way to make the game harder without limiting the player's options. I think the most fun self-imposed challenge in Breath of the Wild is actually a restriction of fast-travel-- the game is totally playable even with no fast-travel whatsoever, and it's a good excuse to explore the world. I highly recommend it if you're bored and want to play the game again. It doesn't help any of the problems folks are discussing here whatsoever though.
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Jun 29, 2019 23:34
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Screw food chat. I just got the mastercycle and everything about this game is awesome.
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Jun 29, 2019 23:37
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my opinion on the food is that it is not overpowered because I frequently forget to stock up when I get low, leading me to situations where I'm accidentally fighting both a lynel and a guardian with 3 apples and some uncooked rice
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Jun 29, 2019 23:56
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I'm playing through again and doing sort of a "no fast travel" run but I'm also going to now try another self imposed challenge of "only cook things I would actually eat." Sure, sauteeing up a bunch of mushrooms and apples sounds gross so that's out. Salted fish with herbs? Neat! Steak and mushrooms? I can dig it. Crab shishkabobs actually sound really good. Durian soup? Uhhhhhhh.
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Jun 30, 2019 00:14
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Personally, the tedium of gathering and cooking food balances out its utility in a fight. On Master Mode I have enough to have a few of each meal to get out of trouble but its not worth relying on.
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Jun 30, 2019 00:39
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To either temper or deepen the controversy on this point I'll just note that I don't think botw be an at all difficult game if consumables were removed entirely. It'd be more tedious for sure though.
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Jun 30, 2019 01:13
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Cybernetic Vermin posted:To either temper or deepen the controversy on this point I'll just note that I don't think botw be an at all difficult game if consumables were removed entirely. It'd be more tedious for sure though. Most of the challenge that I really liked about Master Mode was in the Plateau where food was basically worthless anyways because everything was a one-hit kill, but the great thing about it was trying to develop ways to take out enemies using the environment almost exclusively because direct combat wasn't an option. Desperately managing your resources to try and come out ahead in each encounter, but then outside the Plateau you can just ignore combat because there's plenty of rewards to be had that aren't gated behind battle. Then, at some point just like normal mode, you get so well-established that you don't have to be careful anymore and that's kind of where my uncontrollable excitement for the game started to fade and I only played it frequently, instead of every waking moment.
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Jun 30, 2019 01:20
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Spanish Manlove posted:I'm playing through again and doing sort of a "no fast travel" run but I'm also going to now try another self imposed challenge of "only cook things I would actually eat." This is a really cool idea! I'm not sure where I'd put the durian foods personally because I've never eaten it. All I know about it is it smells bad. So, would I eat durian soup? Maybe? I'd try it at least once.
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Jun 30, 2019 02:10
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Cicero posted:A roguelike legit Zelda would be pretty rad. (I know about Cadence but dear God am I bad at its rhythm gameplay) There is an option to turn off the rhythm aspect so that stuff only moves once when you do a button press.
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Jun 30, 2019 02:24
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