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oliwan posted:My Prenzlauer-bionade-daddy-colleague did a whole speech about climate change yesterday and then became super irritated when I told him that non of his bio poo poo makes any difference to the environment and that he should go vegan if he really cares lol Don't know about the speech but lifestylism is a narcissistic dead end to solving the problem of climate change.
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Oct 17, 2018 13:22
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Mr. Lobe posted:Don't know about the speech but lifestylism is a narcissistic dead end to solving the problem of climate change. What is the solution? If agriculture, housing, travel, and consumer goods not count what's even fuckin left?
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Oct 17, 2018 13:35
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aphid_licker posted:What is the solution? If agriculture, housing, travel, and consumer goods not count what's even fuckin left? Gotta change the systems, the methods of production and infrastructure. It's a political question, not a question of individual consumer choices. The major contributors to climate change are not things most people have the buying power to opt out of, and the limited extent to which people can buy 'bio' this or 'green' that is, for all practical purposes, buying into a marketing scheme rather than doing something that will solve any problems.
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Oct 17, 2018 13:41
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The same is true of veganism, of course. Absolving your personal contribution to climate change along that narrow vector is ultimately a pointless gesture for which some people feel an unwarranted sense of pride. That being said, it's perfectly fine if people choose to eat vegan or whatever, they just need to not kid themselves that modifying their personal lifestyle is a sufficient answer to the problem.
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Oct 17, 2018 13:45
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aphid_licker posted:What is the solution? If agriculture, housing, travel, and consumer goods not count what's even fuckin left? Even if all of berlin or even all the other major urban centres went vegan overnight,e very fuckin Rastätte would sell tons of meat and the butcheries woudl still export it, etc. so yes, Mr.Lobe was faster than me, just standing here and nodding sagely
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Oct 17, 2018 13:46
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aphid_licker posted:What is the solution? If agriculture, housing, travel, and consumer goods not count what's even fuckin left? Its not rocket science. Get a master's degree in physics, chemistry or biology and then publish in the fields of bioengineering, renewable energy, carbon sequestration, etc.
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Oct 17, 2018 14:00
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Its not rocket science. Get a master's degree in physics, chemistry or biology and then publish in the fields of bioengineering, renewable energy, carbon sequestration, etc. I agree that new technology may mitigate some of the consequences of climate change and provide more effective alternatives to existing industrial practices. However, I think it is a bad idea to assume that geoengineering is, initself, the solution to this problem. The issue is that there are very powerful people who are making money off of the things that are destroying this world, and they are the ones who actually control the infrastructure of things like the production of fossil fuels or the methods of industrial agriculture. As long as private industry makes these decisions, we are at their mercy. One way or another, their ability to make these far-reaching decisions must be wrested from them if we seriously want to fight the causes of climate change. I don't see that happening in the absence of a global grass-roots movement forcing these kinds of policies and practices into place with pressure from below. But I hope that as the material consequences of climate change become more obvious, that kind of a movement will become stronger and more focused. After all, when people realize their lives are on the line, they are probably going to do something, right? I just hope that will happen soon enough to make the difference.
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Oct 17, 2018 14:15
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Jeez Louise, I was just joking but compared to your hopes for a global revolution that will overthrow the rule of capital my plan looks like good and proper advice
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Oct 17, 2018 14:53
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And, very importantly: not have kids!
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Oct 17, 2018 14:55
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Doesn't have to be revolution, but the idea that we can count on major changes in infrastructure to happen without at least people marching in the streets seems unlikely to me. It's a very big and very bad problem.
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Oct 17, 2018 14:56
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I mean I'm not disagreeing that some good and proper guillotining is in order but major changes to infrastructure happen all the time under free markets system and that's not even remotely controversial
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Oct 17, 2018 15:02
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:I mean I'm not disagreeing that some good and proper guillotining is in order but major changes to infrastructure happen all the time under free markets system and that's not even remotely controversial Maybe it can change, but do you want to bank on it happening while the people in charge of these industries can do as they please? ... Regardless, sorry for going off on a screed. That climate report from the UN a couple of weeks has put me seriously on edge
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Oct 17, 2018 15:03
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Its not rocket science. Get a master's degree in physics, chemistry or biology and then publish in the fields of bioengineering, renewable energy, carbon sequestration, etc.
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Oct 17, 2018 15:03
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oliwan posted:And, very importantly: not have kids! A lifestylist AND a neo-Malthusian? Geez
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Oct 17, 2018 15:08
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Simply Simon posted:Okay, now what? Invent cold fusion. Go on now, chop chop. 
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Oct 17, 2018 15:14
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Perestroika posted:Invent cold fusion. Go on now, chop chop.
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Oct 17, 2018 15:15
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Mr. Lobe posted:Gotta change the systems, the methods of production and infrastructure. It's a political question, not a question of individual consumer choices. The major contributors to climate change are not things most people have the buying power to opt out of, and the limited extent to which people can buy 'bio' this or 'green' that is, for all practical purposes, buying into a marketing scheme rather than doing something that will solve any problems. You can save the equivalent of the yearly carbon output of an african by just making a different vacation destination choice, and save another decent chunk of carbon, water, and land by reducing your meat consumption from the average German level to the level recommended by doctors. And you doing so increases the pressures on the infrastructure and other members of your social group to adapt. These are the lowest-hanging of fruit, with literally zero downside to anyone, why wouldn't you pick them?
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Oct 17, 2018 15:20
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aphid_licker posted:You can save the equivalent of the yearly carbon output of an african by just making a different vacation destination choice, and save another decent chunk of carbon, water, and land by reducing your meat consumption from the average German level to the level recommended by doctors. And you doing so increases the pressures on the infrastructure and other members of your social group to adapt. These are the lowest-hanging of fruit, with literally zero downside to anyone, why wouldn't you pick them? By all means, do those things. But don't kid yourself that your lifestyle choices are enough to fix the problem, or that the problem is one that can be fixed by voluntary lifestyle choices. Like sonic sez... 
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Oct 17, 2018 15:33
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Simply Simon posted:Okay, now what? I need a new type of microorganism that will make carbon capture from the atmosphere economically viable
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Oct 17, 2018 15:34
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:I need a new type of microorganism that will make carbon capture from the atmosphere economically viable
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Oct 17, 2018 15:50
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Eat the rich
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Oct 17, 2018 15:56
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Yesterday, I dusted off an old hard-drive of mine to find some Unterlagen I had scanned in 05/06 or so, and I got lost browsing around tons of other poo poo I had filed away, like blacklists for Nazi band shirts, IFF Taschenkarten for cryptic symbols / tattoos / runes and stuff, and some of the links to band pages / youtube accounts still worked. Then I was bummed that in the Blindes-Huhn-Findet-Auch-Mal-Ein-Korn-scenario that a Rechtsrock band actually comes up with a catchy riff or melody among all the lovely racist trash music, you'd never be able to listen to it because of the lyrics. Then a business idea dawned on me. Get some talented DJ / sound engineer and a band of chill folks to re-record indizierte Nazi hits with anti-Nazi lyrics or hebrew folklore songs, donate their proceeds to nonprofits for the Opfer rechter Gewalt, and then laugh even more at the bands because they can't sue you. So naturally, I came to this Faden immediately for legal advice: Do bands whose songs are indiziert or straight-up verboten have any legal recourse based on copyright-infringement arguments? Because it would be very funny if not.
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Oct 17, 2018 16:05
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Duzzy Funlop posted:So naturally, I came to this Faden immediately for legal advice: Do bands whose songs are indiziert or straight-up verboten have any legal recourse based on copyright-infringement arguments? Because it would be very funny if not. Yes.
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Oct 17, 2018 16:09
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Oct 17, 2018 16:10
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do it, no balls
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Oct 17, 2018 16:44
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Perhaps it might fall under satire/parody? 
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Oct 17, 2018 17:02
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Perestroika posted:Perhaps it might fall under satire/parody? No.
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Oct 17, 2018 17:07
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oliwan posted:And, very importantly: not have kids! I agree, everybody should become old as a society, an older electorate is known to support reasonable, well-thought, far-reaching reforms towards a better future Alternate answer: ok, you first
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Oct 17, 2018 18:59
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AndreTheGiantBoned posted:I agree, everybody should become old as a society, an older electorate is known to support reasonable, well-thought, far-reaching reforms towards a better future The whole point is that there is no future if we don't have kids op
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Oct 17, 2018 19:06
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Mr. Lobe posted:A lifestylist AND a neo-Malthusian? Geez I don't know what any of this means, but if it means vegan childless anti-capitalist ur right
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Oct 17, 2018 19:09
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oliwan posted:I don't know what any of this means, but if it means vegan childless anti-capitalist ur right Well, if you're a principled anti-capitalist, consider reading up on how arguing people shouldn't have kids echoes the sentiments of one of the more vicious ideological strains to come out of 19th century capitalist thinking, the ideas Thomas "too many poors" Malthus.
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Oct 17, 2018 19:52
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Mr. Lobe posted:Well, if you're a principled anti-capitalist, consider reading up on how arguing people shouldn't have kids echoes the sentiments of one of the more vicious ideological strains to come out of 19th century capitalist thinking, the ideas Thomas "too many poors" Malthus. Thanks for the link op, but if you seriously want to use this as an argument against being childless its on the same level as "vegetarians are evil because Hitler was a vegetarian"
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Oct 17, 2018 19:57
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oliwan posted:Thanks for the link op, but if you seriously want to use this as an argument against being childless its on the same level as "vegetarians are evil because Hitler was a vegetarian" Hitler's vegetarianism isn't part of what made him bad. Malthus's anti-natalism is part of what made him bad. And the things that made Malthus's antinatalism bad are the things that also generally make anti-natalism bad, including in its modern rebirth in some environmental thinking. Also it's ineffective as a political strategy be anti-natalist if you actually want to win. (it is important to remember, and not hard to forget, that we actually want to win) The article explains why, and more. Mr. Lobe fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Oct 17, 2018 |
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Oct 17, 2018 20:07
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Mr. Lobe posted:Hitler's vegetarianism isn't part of what made him bad. Malthus's anti-natalism is part of what made him bad. And the things that made Malthus's antinatalism bad are the things that also generally make anti-natalism bad, including in its modern rebirth in some environmental thinking. Also it's ineffective as a political strategy be anti-natalist if you actually want to win. (you do want to win, right?) The article explains why, and more. I'm not even an anti-natalist, but sorry, this argument is dumb.
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Oct 17, 2018 20:12
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Communism is bad because of Stalin lol, thats the level of that argument
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Oct 17, 2018 20:15
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*putting on d&d cap (it's a dunce cap)* IMO "anti-natalism" should be reserved for people like me who think that no one at all should procreate, i.e. we should be the last generation of humans, i.e. full human extinction
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Oct 17, 2018 20:17
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Being a Swiss Dutch is apparently scrambling both the brains of the debatee and debater.
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Oct 17, 2018 20:21
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oliwan posted:Communism is bad because of Stalin lol, thats the level of that argument Malthus was factually incorrect in identifying the cause of starvation being people having too many kids. I guess you're not anti-natalist, but there are people who do say that the real solution to climate change is no more kids. Those people are also wrong, and for reasons that overlap with why Malthus was wrong. This is what I am trying to say, I do not think I am communicating it well, and as a mercy to myself and this thread, I am going to stop trying now.
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Oct 17, 2018 20:22
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Can you imagine a world without humans? (not an environmentalist argument; also i missed a couple of spots but you get the idea)
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Oct 17, 2018 20:34
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Smirr posted:Can you imagine a world without humans? that is extremely good, but I think it might be more like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LNHYz89sNc
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Oct 17, 2018 20:39
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