p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

«‹›1784 »

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

yo, just use whatever memory you need to make performance reliably quick, don't leak, and stick each unit of work in its own thread. chances are nothing you do will ever be affected by the mythological gc pausing problem.

guis in android Linux are bad because: bad hardware, bad programmers, bad jvm.

# ? Apr 7, 2014 15:36

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 21:10

fart simpson: Jul 2, 2005; DEATH TO AMERICA

shaggar was right

# ? Apr 7, 2014 15:49

Bloody: Mar 3, 2013

MeramJert posted:

shaggar was right

# ? Apr 7, 2014 15:54

rjmccall: Sep 7, 2007; no worries friend; Fun Shoe

Cybernetic Vermin posted:

the perfection of gc is one of those slightly annoying nerd myths that i think mostly exists because people like absolutes, when very few absolutes exist. gc is deeply flawed, and has the very distinct downside of being an all-or-nothing proposition if it is to work well and be easy to work with. pretty clearly desirable for robust software, but a source of many problems and often not at all desirable.

i sort of hold that a lot of the runtime design (and the languages built on its assumptions) today operates on a slightly incorrect level, in that any application using an appreciable amount of memory (from say 200 megs and up) will have a small number of different classes/types, living in a fairly small number of collections (possibly implicit collections in the form of object graphs), but will still be treated as units, carrying their own tagging/vtables/metadata. the baseline assumption really should be that atomic pieces of data are owned by a collection, which carries the common metadata, and lifetime-manages, its contents. ideally every piece of data is only referred to from one place, and very commonly this is easy to achieve, and makes a lot of management superfluous. the relative minority of objects that are not numerous belong to a singleton collection, which is more overhead than they would otherwise have, but averages better across a reasonably sized application

unfortunately that type of thing is extremely unlikely to be brought about, since displacing existing design thought of an object graph of entirely independent tiny pieces of data would be a monumental undertaking

the situation you call out as ideal � monomorphic data referenced from a unique location � has most of the guarantees necessary to inline storage into the "container", which is (1) generally a superior design for performance and (2) a feature of quite a number of languages already. external tagging alone can be done in a slightly broader set of cases because inlined storage requires a non-recursive type, but i think you'd agree that that's not in the interesting subset

it's very difficult to do even external tagging implicitly in most OO languages, though, because you have to prove that the object is never used polymorphically (including by the GC if applicable, and designing the GC metadata to express specific types instead of just object/non-object makes GC much more expensive). you can do it with user annotations that say that the type isn't polymorphic, ofc, but once you've got that, you should really just go the step further and make the annotations inline the storage

# ? Apr 7, 2014 17:38

MeruFM: Jul 27, 2010

Shaggar posted:

yo, just use whatever memory you need to make performance reliably quick, don't leak, and stick each unit of work in its own thread. chances are nothing you do will ever be affected by the mythological gc pausing problem.

guis in android Linux are bad because: bad hardware, bad programmers, bad jvm.

This sounds about right.
I cannot imaging GC being so bad that it needs to stop the entire machine for several seconds.
Are they passing around a global array/hash so big that the OS starts loading it to virtual memory?

# ? Apr 7, 2014 19:25

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

I think that's how p-lang development is done

# ? Apr 7, 2014 19:27

prefect: Sep 11, 2001; No one, Woodhouse.
No one.; Dead Man’s Band

MeruFM posted:

This sounds about right.
I cannot imaging GC being so bad that it needs to stop the entire machine for several seconds.
Are they passing around a global array/hash so big that the OS starts loading it to virtual memory?

in the days of jdk 1.0, it could definitely happen :corsair:

# ? Apr 7, 2014 19:29

Scaevolus: Apr 16, 2007

Mr Dog posted:

well you can always just write native code on Android, though the user interface APIs are all Java-only so you have to have at least some Java in your app.

Dalvik is pretty rubbish though, google doesn't make money on responsive user interfaces, they make money barcoding every aspect of your life so they can sell ads

you can actually do Native Activities in Android apps since 2.3, which covers ~99% of android users.

# ? Apr 7, 2014 19:45

Bloody: Mar 3, 2013

Shaggar posted:

I think that's how p-lang development is done

# ? Apr 7, 2014 22:07

Soricidus: Oct 21, 2010; freedom-hating statist shill

Shaggar posted:

that's how p-lang development is done

# ? Apr 8, 2014 00:19

qwerasdf: Oct 1, 2006; (Eat shit)

Shaggar posted:

development is done

# ? Apr 8, 2014 01:37

Bloody: Mar 3, 2013

Shaggar posted:

that's how

# ? Apr 8, 2014 01:51

Scaevolus: Apr 16, 2007

javascript is a truly great language

code:

> 2147483648 & 2147483649
-2147483648

# ? Apr 8, 2014 04:12

shrughes: Oct 11, 2008; (call/cc call/cc)

you could have picked an actual bad example. that's the behavior you'd expect. or do you think ~5 should return 0x...FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFA?

# ? Apr 8, 2014 04:49

suffix: Jul 27, 2013; Wheeee!

shrughes posted:

you could have picked an actual bad example. that's the behavior you'd expect. or do you think ~5 should return 0x...FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFA?

Python code:

>>> 2147483648 & 2147483649
2147483648
>>> ~5
-6

wfm

# ? Apr 8, 2014 05:31

Bloody: Mar 3, 2013

2147483648 & 2147483649
-2147483648
~5
-6

# ? Apr 8, 2014 05:34

Bloody: Mar 3, 2013

something something type promotion|coercion|im gay

# ? Apr 8, 2014 05:35

shrughes: Oct 11, 2008; (call/cc call/cc)

the main problem with 32-bit signed bitwise ops is that it encourages the development of javascript crypto

# ? Apr 8, 2014 07:15

Cybernetic Vermin: Apr 18, 2005

otoh the prevailing cryptos appear to be written in c with the expected results

ffs theo, we are not about to put up with your shithead ways if your software isn't secure

# ? Apr 8, 2014 08:09

qwerasdf: Oct 1, 2006; (Eat shit)

More new features going into C#, because you asked: (not sold on the $butt garbage, though)

https://roslyn.codeplex.com/wikipage?title=Language%20Feature%20Status&referringTitle=Documentation

Also

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-US/vstudio/dotnetnative

Microsoft owns, hail Satya(n)

# ? Apr 9, 2014 04:18

Dessert Rose: May 17, 2004; awoken in control of a lucid deep dream...

i don't get how .NET Native differs from NGen. I do, however, look forward to the massive speed boost/memory gains in all of our server code. for free.

dictionary initializers look awful

using static members is cute. it's almost like non-member functions with namespaces! but everything is still an object you guys

# ? Apr 9, 2014 04:29

Bloody: Mar 3, 2013

binary literals? about loving time! why are binary literals restricted to being like... a gcc non-standards tihng

# ? Apr 9, 2014 05:58

MononcQc: May 29, 2007

Bloody posted:

binary literals? about loving time! why are binary literals restricted to being like... a gcc non-standards tihng

Erlang has them with pattern matching :smug:

Go on wikipedia or a RFC and just dump the spec directly in there.

code:

%% BMP file header, using native (little) endianness
<<"BM", _Size:32, _Reserved1:16, _Reserved2:16,
  _Offset:32,
  %% Bitmap information
  _HeaderSize:32, Width:32/native, Height:32/native,
  _ColorPlanes:16, ColorDepth:16/native,   0,0,0,0, % compression,
  _BitmapSize:32, _HorizontalPPM:32, _VerticalPPM:32,
  _Colors:32, _ImportantColors:32,
  %% Actual bitmap data
  Bitmap/binary>> = Bin,
[{width, Width}, {height, Height},
 {color_depth, ColorDepth}, {bitmap, Bitmap}].

# ? Apr 9, 2014 11:39

Symbolic Butt: Mar 22, 2009; (_!_); Buglord

whoa

# ? Apr 9, 2014 11:42

weird: Jun 4, 2012; by zen death robot

Symbolic Butt posted:

whoa

# ? Apr 9, 2014 13:47

hackbunny: Jul 22, 2007; I haven't been on SA for years but the person who gave me my previous av as a joke felt guilty for doing so and decided to get me a non-shitty av

Cybernetic Vermin posted:

otoh the prevailing cryptos appear to be written in c with the expected results

ffs theo, we are not about to put up with your shithead ways if your software isn't secure

youve got to be loving kidding me

and of course i had to learn it from yospos first

# ? Apr 9, 2014 16:41

Kuvo: Oct 27, 2008; Blame it on the misfortune of your bark!; Fun Shoe

qwerasdf posted:

More new features going into C#, because you asked: (not sold on the $butt garbage, though)

https://roslyn.codeplex.com/wikipage?title=Language%20Feature%20Status&referringTitle=Documentation

i wish there were more examples for those new features

also i will suck a hobos dick if it gets that ?. operator into the spec

Kuvo fucked around with this message at 17:34 on Apr 9, 2014

# ? Apr 9, 2014 17:29

gonadic io: Feb 16, 2011; >>=

Kuvo posted:

i wish there were more examples for those new features

also i will suck a hobos dick if it gets that ?. operator into the spec

um excuse me it should actually be written as >>= :smuggo:

# ? Apr 9, 2014 17:42

double riveting: Jul 5, 2013; look at them go

shrughes posted:

the main problem with 32-bit signed bitwise ops is that it encourages the development of javascript crypto

you know, you can do bigint arithmetic just fine with floats. :smuggo:

# ? Apr 9, 2014 20:30

Tiny Bug Child: Sep 11, 2004; Avoid Symmetry, Allow Complexity, Introduce Terror

Kuvo posted:

also i will suck a hobos dick if it gets that ?. operator into the spec

aaa that's such a good idea

i haven't wanted something in php so bad since short array syntax

# ? Apr 9, 2014 20:33

Workaday Wizard: Oct 23, 2009; by Pragmatica

what's the thread oponion on haxe

did anybody ever use it in a real thing, if so how was it?

# ? Apr 9, 2014 23:32

Malcolm XML: Aug 8, 2009; I always knew it would end like ｔｈｉｓ．

AlsoD posted:

um excuse me it should actually be written as >>=

yeah csharp already has monad syntax it's called linq

or use fsharp

# ? Apr 9, 2014 23:47

gonadic io: Feb 16, 2011; >>=

Malcolm XML posted:

yeah csharp already has monad syntax it's called linq

or use fsharp

you can't use linq for possibly-null objects or futures though right, isn't linq for streams only?

# ? Apr 9, 2014 23:53

qwerasdf: Oct 1, 2006; (Eat shit)

Kuvo posted:

i wish there were more examples for those new features

Granted

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/22881465/what-do-these-new-c-sharp-6-features-do/22881736#22881736

# ? Apr 10, 2014 00:51

get out of fyad: Mar 27, 2013

This week in Stupid C# Tricks

code:

//In static class TupleExtensions
public static void Split<T1,T2>(this Tuple<T1, T2> tuple, out T1 first, out T2 second)
{
   first = tuple.Item1;
   second = tuple.Item2;
}

//In MyClass
public static Tuple<string, int> Yospos()
{
   return new Tuple<string, int>("hail satan", 666);
}

public static void Bitch()
{
   Yospos().Split(out var a, out var b);
   Console.WriteLine(a);
   Console.WriteLine(b);
}

# ? Apr 10, 2014 09:29

coffeetable: Feb 5, 2006; TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREAT BRITAIN WOULD BE IF IT WAS RULED BY THE MERCILESS JACKBOOT OF PRINCE CHARLES

YES I DO TALK TO PLANTS ACTUALLY

coding horrors thread is currently defending JS automatic semicolon insertion

:psyduck:

# ? Apr 10, 2014 10:44

Malcolm XML: Aug 8, 2009; I always knew it would end like ｔｈｉｓ．

AlsoD posted:

you can't use linq for possibly-null objects or futures though right, isn't linq for streams only?

iirc fsharp implements options as a special type that uses null as nothing

# ? Apr 10, 2014 11:23

Maluco Marinero: Jan 18, 2001; Damn that's a
fine elephant.

Edit: double posting phone

Maluco Marinero fucked around with this message at 11:39 on Apr 10, 2014

# ? Apr 10, 2014 11:37

Maluco Marinero: Jan 18, 2001; Damn that's a
fine elephant.

coffeetable posted:

coding horrors thread is currently defending JS automatic semicolon insertion

Of all the JS features for COBOL posters to un-ironically defend, automatic semicolon insertion would be the last thing I'd think of.

# ? Apr 10, 2014 11:38

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 21:10

spongeh: Mar 22, 2009; BREADAGRAM OF PROTECTION

a lot of the js hipster types will defend ASI saying the rules are simple and that semicolons make their code look all dirty and unclean. you should just learn the rules and not make mistakes of missing them anywhere, ever.

i believe the npm codebase in node is full of terrible stuff like this. they also do variable declarations/arrays like so:

code:


var a = 1
    , b = 2
    , c = 3

var arr = ['string'
 , 'another string'
 , 'this is terrible'
]

# ? Apr 10, 2014 17:46

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

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