p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

«‹›1784 »

Zombywuf: Mar 29, 2008

Emacs works better on Linux.

# ? Apr 22, 2014 19:23

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 6, 2024 12:54

Squinty Applebottom: Jan 1, 2013

Zombywuf posted:

Emacs works better on Linux.

lol

# ? Apr 22, 2014 19:23

kitten emergency: Jan 13, 2008; get meow this wack-ass crystal prison

we use linux because our cs program is run by the neckbeardiest of neckbeard

# ? Apr 22, 2014 19:24

kitten emergency: Jan 13, 2008; get meow this wack-ass crystal prison

here's some real-world observational poo poo about teaching people how to use the 'right' tools though

we tried something new in an intro to web design class - leaning heavy on codeacademy instead of making people buy books. in combination, we taught them how to edit using pico/notepad instead of relying on dreamweaver

the results?

they don't need to use dreamweaver and do their poo poo by hand, but instead of using pico/nodepad, they write it in codeacademy's codebit editor in the browser.

# ? Apr 22, 2014 19:28

kitten emergency: Jan 13, 2008; get meow this wack-ass crystal prison

regardless of your best intentions students will find the easiest loving path to accomplish whatever you set out for them to do

# ? Apr 22, 2014 19:28

kitten emergency: Jan 13, 2008; get meow this wack-ass crystal prison

in our cs classes (which for any upper-level are all 100% old school knuth C poo poo) there's no support for anything beyond gcc/gdb/emacs but that doesn't stop people from trying to use VS

then failing whenever something needs to work on solaris because the endianess is switched

# ? Apr 22, 2014 19:29

kitten emergency: Jan 13, 2008; get meow this wack-ass crystal prison

in summation the only thing worse than programming is teaching people how to program or do anything with computers at all ever

# ? Apr 22, 2014 19:30

MononcQc: May 29, 2007

My meh local University had a lab with Windows and VS, but also had Linux VMs. Every student had an account to a solaris server with an outdated C and only vi (not vim) on it.

You were to upload your homework to the solaris server and add in a README with what environment you tested it on so the teacher/TA could replicate it. It's never been an issue otherwise, even if I decided to be an rear end in a top hat and developed poo poo with the outdated C on the solaris server.

Personally I don't think you should be forcing students into any kind of development environment (unless it makes sense -- scratch for kids, Oz/Mozart requires Emacs for PL paradigms if that's the course you have, etc). Let them pick whatever they're comfortable with, and provide demos and docs for as many platforms and tools as possible, whether it's through MSDNAA or getting it from a package manager.

# ? Apr 22, 2014 19:32

Bloody: Mar 3, 2013

my algorithms class owned because it wasn't taught in a language. all of the homework was "do this in w/e lang your comfortable with"

# ? Apr 22, 2014 19:35

kitten emergency: Jan 13, 2008; get meow this wack-ass crystal prison

i have no clue why there's no dreamspark account for this school esp. since they have massive ms site licenses for windows/office and use o365

# ? Apr 22, 2014 19:35

Zombywuf: Mar 29, 2008

I'm reminded of a time a class I was in had to submit some report or other as HTML. Most of the class wrote it by hand, one guy used Word's save as HTML feature and wondered why it didn't work in Netscape. Oh how we laughed.

# ? Apr 22, 2014 19:46

Suspicious Dish: Sep 24, 2011; 2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro; Fun Shoe

zokie posted:

does anyone actually seriously use a linux? because lol, why not just use windows instead?

Windows is bad

# ? Apr 22, 2014 19:48

kitten emergency: Jan 13, 2008; get meow this wack-ass crystal prison

Zombywuf posted:

I'm reminded of a time a class I was in had to submit some report or other as HTML. Most of the class wrote it by hand, one guy used Word's save as HTML feature and wondered why it didn't work in Netscape. Oh how we laughed.

had a dude try to do this the second week, had to check that i wasn't in 1998 again

# ? Apr 22, 2014 19:49

Suspicious Dish: Sep 24, 2011; 2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro; Fun Shoe

Zombywuf posted:

I'm reminded of a time a class I was in had to submit some report or other as HTML. Most of the class wrote it by hand, one guy used Word's save as HTML feature and wondered why it didn't work in Netscape. Oh how we laughed.

I use a hex editor to edit my word documents

# ? Apr 22, 2014 19:49

Zombywuf: Mar 29, 2008

Suspicious Dish posted:

I use a hex editor to edit my word documents

Better than using Word I guess.

# ? Apr 22, 2014 19:56

Breakfast All Day: Oct 21, 2004

ugh you guys having to type clang something something into a makefile once is way too hard for students, why cant we just use vs where you wade through 5 levels of poorly organized guis and end up in unreproducible states

Bloody posted:

my algorithms class owned because it wasn't taught in a language. all of the homework was "do this in w/e lang your comfortable with"

every class after sophomore year in my undergrad was this way, owned and encouraged you to choose whatever lang was best suited for each problem rather than becoming dogmatic about whatever one your prof happened to select

# ? Apr 22, 2014 20:12

Sapozhnik: Jan 2, 2005; Nap Ghost

yeah good luck doing automatic header dependency tracking in makefiles without reciting a pile of shamanistic nonsense from somewhere.

i mean don't get me wrong i like makefiles but they really are terrible, unfortunately every other build tool has Opinions instead of just letting you go "if these input files are newer than this output file then do a thing".

# ? Apr 22, 2014 20:25

JewKiller 3000: Nov 28, 2006; by Lowtax

uncurable mlady posted:

regardless of your best intentions students will find the easiest loving path to accomplish whatever you set out for them to do

epic thissery

# ? Apr 22, 2014 20:40

gonadic io: Feb 16, 2011; >>=

lmao if you thought haskell's operators were bad agda lets you put underscores in the name then call that function with arguments wherever underscores were

i.e.

code:

data Tree (X : Set) : Set where
  leaf     : Tree X
  _<[_]>_  : Tree X -> X -> Tree X -> Tree X

insertTree : Nat -> Tree Nat -> Tree Nat
insertTree n leaf          = leaf <[ n ]> leaf
insertTree n (l <[ x ]> r) = ...

# ? Apr 22, 2014 20:44

Subjunctive: Sep 12, 2006; ✨sparkle and shine✨

teaching programming is a literacy issue, like basic probability or civics or internet. whatever career a person goes into, the odds are pretty good that effective use of computers can enhance their success. could just be Excel macros, could be some little script to massage their linguistics data into a more useful form, could be whatever. programming technology is becoming more accessible, but the practice is still treated as the province of magicians who will devote their lives to illuminating curly-brace manuscripts and building shrines to Hindley-Milner. teach programming by teaching "how to make a cool picture with a software Spirograph" or "how to make a text game", not by Teaching Programming and definitely lot by Teaching Computer Science.

i'm on the board of a vocational college (though we offer degrees as well as diplomas), and whether the field is hotel management or aviation, there is a strong correlation between better outcomes and basic programming understanding. understanding what problems computers can help solve is hugely powerful, even if you don't ever do any actual programming in a Real Environment.

there are knock-on effects that are good too, as observed in the 7-12 set. kids with some exposure to programming are less likely to be discouraged by initial difficulty in solving a problem, which makes sense: programming is 10% figuring out what to write, and 90% figuring out wtf it doesn't work correctly.

there's a real question about availability of teachers and curriculum quality, plus what the time would displace. american schools at least are not exactly bursting with science and art and such classes at the lower grades as it is. it's an area where industry involvement could be helpful, but the industry is mostly people like us who get off on the systems theoretic stuff or optimization and have allegiances to styles of programming or specific technologies. there's peril there.

# ? Apr 22, 2014 20:48

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

shrughes posted:

yeah and you only did it so you could win the PL (Programming Language) thread discussions.

~past tense~ i now janitor a startup

# ? Apr 22, 2014 21:06

Blotto Skorzany: Nov 7, 2008; He's a PSoC, loose and runnin'
came the whisper from each lip
And he's here to do some business with
the bad ADC on his chip
bad ADC on his chiiiiip

tef posted:

~past tense~ i now janitor a startup

gently caress tef haven't you been down this road before

# ? Apr 22, 2014 21:12

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

Subjunctive posted:

there are knock-on effects that are good too, as observed in the 7-12 set. kids with some exposure to programming are less likely to be discouraged by initial difficulty in solving a problem, which makes sense: programming is 10% figuring out what to write, and 90% figuring out wtf it doesn't work correctly.

this might be more the approach than the subject - teaching problem solving as getting kids to explore the problem, rather than teaching them to memorize the answers.

Suspicious Dish posted:

But starting from the bottom-up of "true computer science" is dumb and stupid.

It's also not the way we discovered things either. Even pure mathematics doesn't define what numbers are until later in university.

Suspicious Dish posted:

By allowing them to build their own model, working for a few hours at it, they developed better understanding of the concepts than any of the other students, and probably their teacher.

mindstorms! papert's math world. c.f http://worrydream.com/MeanwhileAtCodeOrg/

see also http://logothings.wikispaces.com/Papert+-+August+1970

# ? Apr 22, 2014 21:15

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

Otto Skorzeny posted:

gently caress tef haven't you been down this road before

yep but i needed to move on from the last job, was doing 2+ jobs for not much money. mild ideological differences in how the company has grown too.

# ? Apr 22, 2014 21:16

Fuck them: Jan 21, 2011; and their bullshit

One time my lazy/senile professor told us, explicitly, that he would never, ever give us malformed files or make us worry about checking input so we wouldn't do it.

Then he gave us a malformed file and basically went "welp I lied" when all us babby programmers had our C code blow up on his machine; we got a zero with "got a segfault" on blackboard.

Hell was raised but everyone had to email him to fix the grade or let us, yanno, do some input validation. Mind you this was everyone's second programming class but also a junior level class! :q:

It doesn't quite stack up to "Ruby snob literally storms out of class when teacher fucks up explaining recursion" or "professor stared at a blackboard for 15 minutes silently when he forgot how tree work" in humor value, but it's up there.

# ? Apr 22, 2014 21:35

Zombywuf: Mar 29, 2008

One class I wasn't in but was in the computer labs where people were tearing their hair out over a problem to print out Pascal's Triangle with an automatic submission system which turned out to count whitespace at the end of the line as significant. The guy running that class was widely hated.

# ? Apr 22, 2014 21:46

Socracheese: Oct 20, 2008

e: wrong thread

# ? Apr 22, 2014 21:49

Fuck them: Jan 21, 2011; and their bullshit

OH GOD I FOUND THE CODE :ohdear:

guess who posted:

For THIS program I am am going to use gcc on $COLLEGE_SHELL_ACCOUNT with a single command line file
that will have a very large number of random ints (at least 1000, perhaps significantly more and they might be
positive, negative , or zero). The very first number in the file, however, is not actual data, but rather it specifies
the number of numbers after it. So you will want to calloc an array to store the data so that the array is the correct size.

Guess which number he hosed up? The size of that array we allocate to store data in!

What happened was we had a file which said "I have x numbers in me" but it ended up having more than x, and since literally nobody checked if they array had room when feeding it data from the file since we were told that the file would state how many numbers it had in it right off the bat, everyone's C program kept happily pushing that pointer until we had segfaults, since we kept reading and shoving ints into memory until EOF.

I learned my lesson about "never, ever, ever trust anyone when it comes to input, MEMORY or computers in general" but I'm still pissed a professor would lie and inflict a 0, versus a teachable moment which was just a "gotcha!".

Also why the fuckety gently caress did he like PICO over vi(m)? Probably because he got his degree in the loving 1960s but I'm derailing this into I'm mad about something that happened two years ago.

We did have a cool grandpa-professor who loved vim, though.

# ? Apr 22, 2014 21:55

Bloody: Mar 3, 2013

2banks1swap.avi posted:

OH GOD I FOUND THE CODE

Guess which number he hosed up? The size of that array we allocate to store data in!

What happened was we had a file which said "I have x numbers in me" but it ended up having more than x, and since literally nobody checked if they array had room when feeding it data from the file since we were told that the file would state how many numbers it had in it right off the bat, everyone's C program kept happily pushing that pointer until we had segfaults, since we kept reading and shoving ints into memory until EOF.

I learned my lesson about "never, ever, ever trust anyone when it comes to input, MEMORY or computers in general" but I'm still pissed a professor would lie and inflict a 0, versus a teachable moment which was just a "gotcha!".

Also why the fuckety gently caress did he like PICO over vi(m)? Probably because he got his degree in the loving 1960s but I'm derailing this into I'm mad about something that happened two years ago.

We did have a cool grandpa-professor who loved vim, though.

lol got owned by a prof xD

# ? Apr 22, 2014 21:56

Breakfast All Day: Oct 21, 2004

2banks1swap.avi posted:

OH GOD I FOUND THE CODE

Guess which number he hosed up? The size of that array we allocate to store data in!

What happened was we had a file which said "I have x numbers in me" but it ended up having more than x, and since literally nobody checked if they array had room when feeding it data from the file since we were told that the file would state how many numbers it had in it right off the bat, everyone's C program kept happily pushing that pointer until we had segfaults, since we kept reading and shoving ints into memory until EOF.

I learned my lesson about "never, ever, ever trust anyone when it comes to input, MEMORY or computers in general" but I'm still pissed a professor would lie and inflict a 0, versus a teachable moment which was just a "gotcha!".

Also why the fuckety gently caress did he like PICO over vi(m)? Probably because he got his degree in the loving 1960s but I'm derailing this into I'm mad about something that happened two years ago.

We did have a cool grandpa-professor who loved vim, though.

ugh why are you mad at me for this overflow exploit in your customer data software cant we just treat this as a teachable moment

# ? Apr 22, 2014 22:00

MeruFM: Jul 27, 2010

heartbleed wouldn't have happened if they had this prof

# ? Apr 22, 2014 22:02

Fuck them: Jan 21, 2011; and their bullshit

Breakfast All Day posted:

ugh why are you mad at me for this overflow exploit in your customer data software cant we just treat this as a teachable moment

Learning about how to manage memory is orthogonal to the professor lying and then losing the class's respect over the lie.

# ? Apr 22, 2014 22:03

Fuck them: Jan 21, 2011; and their bullshit

MeruFM posted:

heartbleed wouldn't have happened if they had this prof

# ? Apr 22, 2014 22:03

Jonny 290: May 5, 2005; [ASK] me about OS/2 Warp

Breakfast All Day posted:

ugh why are you mad at me for this overflow exploit in your customer data software cant we just treat this as a teachable moment

the definition of college is that you're paying money to playwork for a few years without negative repercussions so that you arent paralyzed by fear of same in your skill development

if theyre going to get shitcanned for a simple fuckup they can just enter the labor market straight off the bat and make money instead of pay it

# ? Apr 22, 2014 22:04

Fuck them: Jan 21, 2011; and their bullshit

TESTING should be not only taught in school (it was not where I went) but practiced in school and on the job. Just gonna throw that out there.

And by the way, explaining what a buffer overflow is never actually happened. Those who cared did their research or listened to the cs crew complain about it in the hallway but it wasn't actually used in instruction. I had a good friend when I was in the actual C class explain why we had to use the safe string functions, use buffers, and what a null termination actually was. This wasn't something that happened in class either.

:psyduck:

Fuck them fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Apr 22, 2014

# ? Apr 22, 2014 22:05

Socracheese: Oct 20, 2008

in my cs degree curriculum i have been taught "testing is good" but have never had to do it ever

# ? Apr 22, 2014 22:06

Breakfast All Day: Oct 21, 2004

sry about your scrub education we got auto 0s for any unchecked input memory leaks segfaults and testing suites were usually a quarter of the grade, hence i have yet to write a heartbleed, qed

# ? Apr 22, 2014 22:10

Breakfast All Day: Oct 21, 2004

just a therac here and there

# ? Apr 22, 2014 22:10

Fuck them: Jan 21, 2011; and their bullshit

Breakfast All Day posted:

sry about your scrub education we got auto 0s for any unchecked input memory leaks segfaults and testing suites were usually a quarter of the grade, hence i have yet to write a heartbleed, qed

I think this is a good idea and wish I had that and I am legit jelly you had that.

Not looking forward to retaking poo poo when I go back to finish since it WON'T be in the scrubschool I went to, but it'll be loving easy at least.

# ? Apr 22, 2014 22:12

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 6, 2024 12:54

Fuck them: Jan 21, 2011; and their bullshit

Breakfast All Day posted:

just a therac here and there

Guess what else wasn't brought up?

# ? Apr 22, 2014 22:13

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

«‹›1784 »