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evilmiera posted:Sure. Realizing why people act a certain way is important. But in the case of the Bajorans the occupation is presented in such a mustache-twirling way (which, to be fair, can be entirely realistic) that it sort of backfires and you don't sympathize as much after the tenth episode it is discussed. It also doesn't help much knowing why people are acting like stupid assholes over and over when they keep being stupid assholes. I don't know. Bajor goes from a planet about to be taken over by a coup by a xenophobic military dictatorship at the beginning of the show to a planet that would have joined the Federation if Sisko didn't show up and say, "I, as space Jesus, am telling you, stay neutral until this war we've been foreshadowing is over." The problem with Bajoran characters as characters is that they aren't very well developed. There were only, by my count, 5 Bajoran characters who played major roles on the show, and of those 5, only Kira and Kai Winn develop in any significant way. Leeta is just designated girlfriend, Bareil is terminally boring, and Shakaar shows up, starts dating Kira, gets referred to a lot off screen, and then dies. For all he gets talked about, he's only in 3 episodes. Plus, apparently, the powers that be didn't like Bajoran episodes, especially Bajoran religious episodes or stuff dealing with Sisko as the Emissary. And I'd disagree with the people who say that the Cardassians aren't supposed to be fascist/Nazi, because I think they most definitely are.
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Jan 9, 2018 04:37
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Cardassians are deffo fascist seeing as they're a military dictatorship centered around conservative familial relations and ultimate state power. Not Naziism but fascism in the "normal" way, like starship troopers. Not Roman fascism like Romulans either
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Jan 9, 2018 05:07
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:It would have been far more interesting if Dukat just wound up getting jobbed by one of his own pathetic schemes, dying anonymously in disgrace. Not how they went with him. Just an arrogant bastard who rises to supreme power and ultimately pushes himself out into obscurity, never to matter again. Best Dukat episode is still Civil Defense. His brilliant masterstroke is foiled by his superiors going "Ha ha, gently caress you" years ago.
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Jan 9, 2018 05:17
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Yeah given the choice of annoying whiny furry creatures, Porthos beats Neelix in every way and it's not even close. Sooooo cute!
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Jan 9, 2018 05:26
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Cythereal posted:Best Dukat episode is still Civil Defense. His brilliant masterstroke is foiled by his superiors going "Ha ha, gently caress you" years ago. Were those messages computer-generated or did his CO sit down one day and record a bunch of "you suck" messages for every commander under him for a variety of contingencies. Either option sounds extremely Cardassian. Like of course there'd be a computer program constantly monitoring you for signs of dereliction of duty or treason and dealing out summary punishments according to some algorithm. On the other hand, recording a bunch of messages is as good a reason as any to come to the office on a Sunday afternoon and toil selflessly for the good of the state, also the habit keeps the wife off your back when you need time away with a Bajoran good time girl. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 05:31 on Jan 9, 2018 |
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Jan 9, 2018 05:29
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A dropped ball in DS9 is that Bajor would be a lot more interesting with a more nuanced sense of its internal politics, and with some wheel-within-wheel stuff showing how those internal politics interrelate with the broader galactopolitical order. Instead nearly everything comes down to Bajoran religion even though there are secular forces in Bajoran society too. Probably the most interesting non-Kira Bajoran thing is the presence of orphaned Cardassian children on Bajor after the occupation. That's a legitimately neat and plausible thing to examine that shows a more complicated side to life on Bajor.
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Jan 9, 2018 06:08
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Dr. Video Games 0081 posted:A dropped ball in DS9 is that Bajor would be a lot more interesting with a more nuanced sense of its internal politics, and with some wheel-within-wheel stuff showing how those internal politics interrelate with the broader galactopolitical order. Instead nearly everything comes down to Bajoran religion even though there are secular forces in Bajoran society too. In season 1-2 of DS9 I feel like Bajor is a bit more nuanced. There's plenty of bajoran extras who don't wear their religious earrings and it's made clear there's many competing groups and ideologies in post-occupation bajor. But they end up yet another 1-trait TNG race instead of something multifaceted like the Cardassians. Bajorans are "scrappy freedom fighters united by their universal religious unity". It just becomes assumed that every single bajoran is religious, that's their thing and their only thing. We see more ideological diversity in the Orwellian nightmare state of conformist Cardassia than we do with Bajor.
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Jan 9, 2018 06:36
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Kira’s fine but they really needed to give more sense of Bajoran life beyond her. It might have helped if we actually saw the planet at all, they only visited a handful of times and the show never really established any locations. A Bajor set where the the characters regularly visited would probably have been more useful to the show than a 1950s lounge. It also would have been good if more of the minor characters had been Bajoran, partiularly considering how many Cardassians we saw. They perhaps missed an opportunity by not making Kasidy Yates Bajoran.
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Jan 9, 2018 07:13
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Phi230 posted:Cardassians are deffo fascist seeing as they're a military dictatorship centered around conservative familial relations and ultimate state power. Not Naziism but fascism in the "normal" way, like starship troopers. Not Roman fascism like Romulans either Cardassia also has a healthy dollop of the Stasi in East Germany in the form of the Obsidian Order.
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Jan 9, 2018 10:20
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Has anyone posted this yet? http://www.digitalspy.com/showbiz/star-trek-discovery/news/a846720/star-trek-actor-jon-paul-steuer-died-aged-33/ RIP first Alexander Rozhenko 
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Jan 9, 2018 10:54
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That Bajoran stuff is disappointing to hear. I always figured that any "non-human psychology" among the "people" aliens (as opposed to godlike space gasses, et cetera) would be, at most, a different set of tolerances for various forms of social trade-offs. There's already the provocative suggestion that humanity's not somehow committed to being a masturbatory glorification of every bad thing we see on the news, but it would make sense if the Ferengi or the Klingons were more willing, in general, to put up with the obvious problems their social systems create. But just saying "Oh, they form cults because that's their nature" seems like something Dukat would say.
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Jan 9, 2018 11:05
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I agree Cardassians feel more like "British Empire plus a Stasi" than Space Nazis to me. Though some aspects also remind me of Imperial Japan, e.g., the cultural refinement reminds one of some stereotypes about how the same general will order a Kamikaze strike or war crime while folding origami.Tunicate posted:This was, by the way, an intentional choice by the writers as a racial trait for the Bajorans, not something that's being read into the show. The writers explicitly stated they wanted to show that the Bajorans had a nonhuman psychology.  VitalSigns posted:Yeah given the choice of annoying whiny furry creatures, Porthos beats Neelix in every way and it's not even close. Cingulate fucked around with this message at 12:06 on Jan 9, 2018 |
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Jan 9, 2018 11:57
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Cingulate posted:I agree Cardassians feel more like "British Empire plus a Stasi" than Space Nazis to me. Though some aspects also remind me of Imperial Japan, e.g., the cultural refinement reminds one of some stereotypes about how the same general will order a Kamikaze strike or war crime while folding origami. It also, and I think this is critical, puts them a tiny step out of the obvious patterns we trace or see. They're not EXACTLY Nazis, or Stalinists, or... whatever. So you actually have to look.
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Jan 9, 2018 12:11
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Kai Winn was an amazing villain as well. But Bajoran uniforms and phasers are ugly and dumb, and it took them seven seasons to give Kira a decent hairstyle.
CubanMissile fucked around with this message at 12:36 on Jan 9, 2018 |
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Jan 9, 2018 12:19
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Cingulate posted:Also double-posting from STD thread: how comes Phlox is so much less annoying than Neelix? I think it's because Phlox is deliberately meant to be weird and a little unnerving. He's also far more sedate.
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Jan 9, 2018 12:31
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Phlox is chill as gently caress, Neelix is actively irritating to everyone. Neelix is the guy at the party you desperately are trying to get away from.
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Jan 9, 2018 12:44
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Nessus posted:I feel like this is a sign of a successful allegory. You can see what KIND of thing the Cardassians represent... but it's not obvious "which" of them it was, and Cardassians themselves are shown to be complex, nuanced and often heroic characters. Even Dukat congratulates Sisko on his replica wood spaceship.
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Jan 9, 2018 12:45
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Grand Fromage posted:Neelix is the guy at the party you desperately are trying to get away from. But boy can he tear up the dance floor. The guy at the party you desperately try to get away from is this dude: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSbg4LHVPyk
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Jan 9, 2018 12:46
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Baronjutter posted:In season 1-2 of DS9 I feel like Bajor is a bit more nuanced. There's plenty of bajoran extras who don't wear their religious earrings and it's made clear there's many competing groups and ideologies in post-occupation bajor. But they end up yet another 1-trait TNG race instead of something multifaceted like the Cardassians. Bajorans are "scrappy freedom fighters united by their universal religious unity". It just becomes assumed that every single bajoran is religious, that's their thing and their only thing. We see more ideological diversity in the Orwellian nightmare state of conformist Cardassia than we do with Bajor. Yeah, I think after a while they decide that Bajor just isn't interesting enough and want to kind of only feature Bajor and Bajorans insofar as it plays within the Prophets storyline in favor of shenanigans with the rest of the Alpha Quadrant and the Dominion. I also think it probably has to do with the writers not wanting to have to take religion particularly seriously as religion(rather than the true-fact mythology that, for example, permeates the fantasy genre).
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Jan 9, 2018 13:21
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It would have gone a long way toward making Bajoran culture feeling more fleshed out if they had covered some backstory on the Prophets, although only from the Bajoran point of view, i.e. no origin story type stuff about the wormhole aliens themselves. Like, when did they first reveal their existence? How did they manifest themselves and so on. It seems to kind of be implied that it all happened via the Orbs. Well ok cover that then. When and in what manner did they first appear and what went down when they did? It could have been a great show-don't-tell episode to flash back to the past and have something happen or be revealed that ties into the current situation. In that vein hell make it a two-parter and show us something about the Pah-Wraiths.
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Jan 9, 2018 13:36
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Grand Fromage posted:Phlox is chill as gently caress, Neelix is actively irritating to everyone. Just look at how they react to their spouses getting hit on. Neelix: How dare you look at my one year old girlfriend! Phlox: So, you gonna hit that or what? 
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Jan 9, 2018 13:57
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Phlox is also a regular member of the crew. Neelix is a hitchhiker that Janeway gave a makework job too.
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Jan 9, 2018 15:48
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Epicurius posted:Phlox is also a regular member of the crew. Neelix is a hitchhiker that Janeway gave a makework job too. I felt it was more he bullshited his way onboard. Like, was he ever actually useful as a 'local guide'? Even before they left the region of space he was familiar with, he never seemed to know much.
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Jan 9, 2018 17:03
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Phlox showing up would be weird. It's not like they need a new doctor or anything.
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Jan 9, 2018 17:07
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Angry Salami posted:I felt it was more he bullshited his way onboard. Like, was he ever actually useful as a 'local guide'? Even before they left the region of space he was familiar with, he never seemed to know much. Neelix probably racked up tons of Google Local Guide points though. "Congratulations! You're #1 in the Delta Quadrant!"
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Jan 9, 2018 17:11
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Angry Salami posted:Like, was he ever actually useful as a 'local guide'? Just another decent idea that Voyager writers seemed to mostly forget they even ever had. Unless the idea was that he bullshat his way on board, in which case they made him even more useless than originally intended.
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Jan 9, 2018 17:20
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Hipster_Doofus posted:Just another decent idea that Voyager writers seemed to mostly forget they even ever had. Unless the idea was that he bullshat his way on board, in which case they made him even more useless than originally intended. I feel like that shot of him in the pilot taking a bath and enjoying the gently caress out of himself was selling the implication that he bullshat his way on board, but they never really went anywhere with it.
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Jan 9, 2018 17:23
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CubanMissile posted:Kai Winn was an amazing villain as well. She talks so loving slow I just want to strangle her!!!
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Jan 9, 2018 17:28
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Nessus posted:I feel like this is a sign of a successful allegory. You can see what KIND of thing the Cardassians represent... but it's not obvious "which" of them it was, and Cardassians themselves are shown to be complex, nuanced and often heroic characters. Even Dukat congratulates Sisko on his replica wood spaceship. On the other hand, it's also a sign of "truth-in-the-middling" a real-life problem (a constant DS9 issue), as well as being unable to focus your writing. The former leads to "Let's hear out these Nazis who think most people are subhuman" lines of thinking, or centrist inertia/apathy in the Israeli-Palestinian peace process that leads to a shameful failure to uphold human rights. Shows that have something to say should come right out and say it, not endlessly equivocate. Otherwise the only conclusion is that they have nothing to say.
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Jan 9, 2018 17:43
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American apathy has nothing to do with the failure of the Israel peace process. In fact our government was involved to a ridiculous extent from about 1990 to 2003. The peace process failed because the Israeli conservatives in power decided to abandon the Oslo two state solution. You can't broker peace when one side thinks they're winning and doesn't want to stop fighting.
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Jan 9, 2018 18:51
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VitalSigns posted:Were those messages computer-generated or did his CO sit down one day and record a bunch of "you suck" messages for every commander under him for a variety of contingencies. It was the latter. Dukat's boss was "Trying to beam out while your own security programs say there's a massive rebellion on your station? Eat poo poo, you cowardly prick."
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Jan 9, 2018 19:01
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It's sort of absurd that we never once see the prophets helping bajor. I almost wonder if they decided to set up shop with the bajorans just so Sisko would end up there one day
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Jan 9, 2018 19:01
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The existence of Tuvix makes me never wanna use a transporter ever
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Jan 9, 2018 19:05
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cheetah7071 posted:It's sort of absurd that we never once see the prophets helping bajor. I almost wonder if they decided to set up shop with the bajorans just so Sisko would end up there one day The sorta take a more subtle hands-off approach, yeah. But what God doesn't. They did destroy that massive Dominion fleet that one time though.
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Jan 9, 2018 19:14
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Drone posted:The sorta take a more subtle hands-off approach, yeah. But what God doesn't. If I remember that scene correctly, they were extremely unconvinced when Sisko was arguing that they should destroy the fleet to save bajor, but turned around instantly when they realized he would do a suicide run if they didn't
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Jan 9, 2018 19:28
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cheetah7071 posted:It's sort of absurd that we never once see the prophets helping bajor. I almost wonder if they decided to set up shop with the bajorans just so Sisko would end up there one day Well if Kai Winn hadn’t hosed it up, they would have killed Jake and ushered in a golden era of peace and happiness. Allegedly. I quite like the Bajor stuff now on a rewatch, I find the concept of a culture that actually does have gods and a relationship with them, and an actual prophet figure in regular contact with them in futuristic, otherwise standard atheist sci fi setting rather fascinating. Winn especially as the jealous, slighted pope figure.
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Jan 9, 2018 19:43
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cheetah7071 posted:It's sort of absurd that we never once see the prophets helping bajor. I almost wonder if they decided to set up shop with the bajorans just so Sisko would end up there one day I get the feeling that the Bajorans cared a lot more about the Prophets than the Prophets cared about the Bajorans. The whole Prophets thong did lead to my favorite exchange between Damar and Weyoun. Weyoun is getting smug and says basically, "Those stupid Bajorans, worshiping a bunch of aliens as gods." Damar just looks at him and says, "So? Your people worship the Founders as gods." Weyoun looks shocked and offended and says, "That's different! The Founders are gods."
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Jan 9, 2018 21:18
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Epicurius posted:I get the feeling that the Bajorans cared a lot more about the Prophets than the Prophets cared about the Bajorans. I want an odd couple sitcom of Weyoun and Damar. Also I enjoy all the bajor and prophets stuff, right until the last season when it becomes a little over the top and cliche, specially with what they do with Dukat.
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Jan 9, 2018 21:23
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Epicurius posted:I get the feeling that the Bajorans cared a lot more about the Prophets than the Prophets cared about the Bajorans. This was an angle I really wish they had explored. The wormhole aliens clearly have some care/interest in bajor but they barely understand the idea of linear time (some how). Their "communication" with bajor in the past has been through the orbs, which just give people crazy dream experiences and visions they have to interpret them selves. Never did a giant golden plate come out of the wormhole and land on Bajor with the tenets of their faith clearly laid out, the whole religion was entirely made up by the Bajorans simply inspired by their orb experiences and visions and what not. Other than the fact that their targets of worship actually existing in some form, the Bajoran faith is just any other religion. The prophets never told them to wear dangly earrings or put opera houses on their heads. They never laid out how the vedek assembly functions or even the concept of a vedek. It would have been cool to see a devout and rather orthodox adherent like Kira come to terms with the fact that the prophets do indeed exist, and do have some sort of connection with Bajor, but other than that they're something quite different than expectations/scripture.
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Jan 9, 2018 21:36
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dont even fink about it posted:On the other hand, it's also a sign of "truth-in-the-middling" a real-life problem (a constant DS9 issue), as well as being unable to focus your writing.
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Jan 9, 2018 21:49
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